The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 24 Aug 2000
to 25 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 03:00:09 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 24 Aug 2000 to 25 Aug 2000 (#2000-230)
There are 8 messages totalling 293 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Will the Real milonguero please stand up
2. teacher bashing
3. about Tano Genaro and Milonga Criolla
4. Why are so many people angry? (2)
5. Bashing versus useful critique
6. about teachers, good and bad
7. Will the Real milonguero please stand up?
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:28:04 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Will the Real milonguero please stand up
Stella,
(1) Real milongueros prefer cut-top push-up bras with a front snap.
(2) Real milongueros don't wear any kind of shorts. Only sissies do that.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:34:32 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: teacher bashing
Original Message -----
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
> PS - I might as well round it off here. If dance teachers want to be
> respected, individually and as a class, and want to escape the worst
> criticism, they must realise that they have a long history to contend
with.
> Teaching social dancing was largely a racket in the 1700's, and it is
largely
> a racket today. Do I have to draw a picture?
What we seem to have to condend with here is not a long history of
racketeering, but rather some very personal opinions of a very negative
nature (about some people ) being publicly aired. I have not read in the
current thread any complaints by students but rather disparaging remarks by
other teachers. Also, teaching social dance is not a racket nor has it
always been. Some people have made a racket out of it, but teaching dance is
not a criminal enterprise.
> But, you know, other "respectable" professions are rackets too. We do not
> live in a perfect world. However, a person who, like myself, did A LOT of
> teaching in previous lives cannot but be amazed at how social and
> pre-competitive partner dancing is "taught". People ask me to please
believe
> that the average dance teacher is not really trying to make every possible
> obvious mistake in the book for the purpose of students learning badly,
> inefficiently, or not at all. OK, I cannot prove bad intent, so I guess I
> have to believe the unbelievable.
I'm not sure I understand the previous statements. Does this mean that tango
teachers are "really trying to make every possible obvious mistake in the
book for the purpose of students learning badly, inefficiently, or not at
all"? Surely no one can really believe this! I can assure everyone that we
make every effort to teach our students to dance tango in the best way we
can. We would never, in a million years, do something as despicable as
purposely teaching wrong things or actually impeding the learning process of
our students. Could it be that there are such types of teachers out there?
I've never met a teacher like that and I hope I never do.
> But I will say this. If mathematics were
> taught as unpedagogically as partner dances typically are, science as we
know
> it would come to a dead halt.
Mathematics is not dancing, particularly not social dancing. I'm eternally
grateful for that. There are no hard and fast rules for dancing as in
mathematics, one just approximates the shape and manner of movement and it
is always extremely personal. There has been a lot of discussion about
"creating one's style", "dancing one's own dance", improvising, dancing ones
feelings, etc. IMHO, a pedagogical approach to (social) partner dancing is
about as practical as a pedagogical approach as teaching kissing or
lovemaking. I think rather that if social partner was taught as
pedagogically as math, there would be even fewer social dancers than exist
today.
Cheers,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:32:23 +0200
From: Karl-Jochen Rummel <wein.rummel @NIKOCITY.DE>
Subject: about Tano Genaro and Milonga Criolla
Hello Listis,
1. I have a question about a CD by
"Tano Genaro - Un Pionnier du Tango Argentin"
I need the Tracklist of this CD, can any body help me to find this
List?
2. I am looking for the Milonga:
"Milonga Criolla - Francisco Canaro"
is this title of one CD? I can find`t in Germany
Thanks in advance
jochen
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 02:29:22 +0800
From: Juan Rando <juan @STARWON.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Why are so many people angry?
I think Michael makes some good points here.
Every year for a some years I've made the trip to B.A. followed by a trip
to the Europe to dance Tango and teach.
Something that I've noticed is this, (and I'm sure this will annoy the
establishment) that on average it is much more likely that I will walk in
the a new Practica/Milonga in Europe and have a satisfying and beautiful
dance with a lady than I will in B.A. Now this may purely be the
perspective of a reasonable male dancer looking to dance with a woman,
however, this could be significant as most of the bad Karma
surrounding non-Argentinian dance communities seems to be focused on the
man's ability to dance.
I will even go as far as to say that other than a minority of very good
dancers (probably the best in the world) in B.A., the average female dancer
is far worse than those in other established Tango communities,
particularly those in Scandinavia, Germany and the Netherlands.
I feel that this is probably due to the Tango being seen as an art to be
perfected in these external communities, rather than just a casual
pastime. In other words it is not taken for granted as much in other
countries.
I have danced with women in Europe who I would give anything to dance with
again, yet only 2 or 3 immediately spring to mind when I think of B.A..
Every year I spend less time in B.A. as I find it less fulfilling and I
gain less from the experience. I nonetheless encourage my students to go
as they must in order to understand the culture and origins on the
dance. I myself may just be content with those beautiful Norwegian dancers
I so fondly remember.
Juan Rando
The Tango Salon
Perth Western, Australia
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:05:28 -0400
From: Silvi Liberman <liberman @EUCLID.MATH.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why are so many people angry?
Hi everyone !
Could anyone tell me how to subscribe to this list please.
Many thanks.
Silvi
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:22:54 -0500
From: Roger Ray <r-ray @NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bashing versus useful critique
Congrats to Robinne for giving a clear and succinct assessment of this
subject. (Carlos Lima has also made some very astute observations, but
with considerably greater circumlocution.)
I'm inspired to respond by a wine newsletter I received yesterday. It's
written by the wine writer, Robert Parker. At the end of the issue, he
writes about criticism itself. He notes that "judgements based on taste
... beg to be challenged or supported." And that successful critics
demonstrate that they are "consistent, objective, knowledgeable, honest,
and independent".
This is the rub in that most TANGO-L readers do not personally know many
of the TANGO-L contributors except through their writings, and so have
only a limited perspective by which to judge their opinions. In general
the critical writing on TANGO-L does not come from established,
professional critics, and so there is often little context within which
to regard the writing. This is very different from reading Pauline Kael
or Roger Ebert (for those of us in the Midwest), who have produced
enough work to establish their points of view with the reader.
I believe that the recent thread which led to a scathing criticism of
the LA tango scene and of Orlando Paiva, in particular, was an
appropriate subject for TANGO-L because it was rather specific as to why
the writer felt the way she did. It received several detailed rebuttals
from others explaining why they thought its reasoning was flawed. I
think this sort of interchange is in the spirit of TANGO-L.
I disagree with the idea that one should say nothing if one can't say
something nice. That attitude has its place in many social situations,
but not with respect to the "visible figures" that the traveling tango
teachers have become. They are fair game for criticism; just make sure
the criticism is fair.
Parker gives the last word to the 18th century French writer,
Beaumarchais, who he thinks says it with great precision:
"Sans la liberte de blamer, il n'est point d'eloge flatteur."
--
Roger Ray
(Sorry for not being able to reproduce the diacritical marks)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:47:41 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: about teachers, good and bad
I received this email which I found interesting and educating in light of
the recent thread about teachers, authenticity, etc. I'll copy it in it's
entirety below:
"Manuel,
Read your message on "the list". I do have to say
that I have run across teachers (ballroom) who hold
back in their pace of teaching (in private lessons) in
order to generate more revenue for themselves. This
happens most often when a student is not interested in
doing 'competitive' dancing which does take extensive
time and practice. Also, these teachers tend to
either "burn out" and quit teaching and/or have
trouble getting and keeping students. I have never
run across this problem in Argentine tango with any
teacher, local or 'travelling masters'.
Feel free to use this on the list if you want.
Mike"
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:00:32 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Will the Real milonguero please stand up?
Dear L,
Stella Robinson's questions and Larry Carroll's well informed answers
reminded me of another question I have had for the last few days. Most tango
men I talk with around here are obsessed with the dream of becoming viejos
milongueros, but it is so difficult, and it takes so long! I had the idea
that perhaps I should focus on trying to become a milonguero viejo instead.
In my case it will not take as long. Does anybody have the scoop on that? How
does one go about it? Is it a good idea?
Thanks in advance.
PS - On a different subject: can anybody tell me Susana Miller's e-mail
address?
Thanks.
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 24 Aug 2000 to 25 Aug 2000 (#2000-230)
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