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Digest from 23 Aug 2000
to 24 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 03:00:25 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 23 Aug 2000 to 24 Aug 2000 (#2000-229)
There are 5 messages totalling 284 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Keep it simple.
2. Keep it simple (not really)
3. Bashing versus useful critique/ also NYC spaces
4. Events in the SF area
5. Will the Real milongero please stand up
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 01:59:11 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Keep it simple.
I am in San Francisco, California. Female. Never has and does
not currently have a partner.
Thank you Al and Barbara Garvey for answering the email
regarding Los Angeles and their disgust with the skill
level of Argentine tango dancers in North America.
Linda, I respect your expertise and opinion.
There is a big difference in dancing/learning from Carlos
Copello versus Orlando Paiva. One of them demands the best
and will manhandle and threaten if you don't get the step.
The other merely enjoys trying to help you get the step.
Here in the Bay Area there are many mature people who
simply go to the milongas and workshops hoping to have a
good time with others. I don't know about Los Angeles, but
we are at this stage at this point in time. The stage where we
are still trying to develop a tango community and where we
simply go to milongas and workshops hoping to have a good
time with others.
As are many tango communities across North America.
We appreciate the generosity of the nice men who extend
the effort to come here and help us.
When we are ready, Linda, may we ask you to solicit the
demanding/ruthless/exhausting methods of Carlos Copello
so that we can all be perfect tango dancers?
Because then we can all look good on the dance floor.
And then you will be happy.
Deborah
From San Francisco, California (directly north of Los Angeles).
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:31:38 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Keep it simple (not really)
Deborah Holm says
>
I am in San Francisco, California. Female. Never has and does not currently
have a partner [...] There is a big difference in dancing/learning from
Carlos Copello versus Orlando Paiva.
<
I know now what I have been missing lately: Deborah's postings, always a
delight. I would encourage her to look for a great working partner, because
when one is ripe for it, nothing will do more for one's dancing (and dancing
enjoyment) than a good (and not possessive) partner; and she deserves that.
Also, I hope she finds the time to tell us more, more often. Of course I do
not think like Deborah, even when I agree with her, which is almost always.
For one thing she tends to accept people as they are, it seems, whereas I
question everybody --- even my maestro and recent friend Ernesto Norberto, to
his utter amazement. This just makes me surer that, if we ever met and
danced, I would be doing the man's part, and she the woman's. Think of this
what you may. It may not be what you think.
If I may venture an interpretation, she is saying (among other things) that
there are different kinds of maestros, and that we need that variety. I most
certainly think so. But I also think one has to be hard nosed and selective,
which can only happen effectively to those who are people of their own
opinion. And even with all the independence and pursuit of information that
one is capable of, we have to approach differently the opinions of
acknowledged masters who are, in a sense, the embodiment of tango's recent
history, and people who, for all the talent and virtuousness they may
possess, are just a few steps ahead of us, if not, in one aspect or another,
a few steps behind. Let me tell you a sad story. In my early months of tango
I danced often with a lady who had started about the same time, and was a
dream dancer. Months later, when we no longer danced often, I learned that
she had been a professional stage dancer for some 10 to 20 years with first
rank companies. She is hardly ever seen in practicas, informal parties or
milongas; but she has spent many thousands of dollars in private tango
lessons (or is it private "fixes"?), I reckon 3 or 4 times my direct
expenditures in tango, all told, and she is not learning how to lead! I wish
I could say that she failed to grow apace. The sad truth is that, last I
checked, she still was nowhere nearly as good a tango dancer as she had once
been. I am tempted to say more, but I will say no more.
Reading Deborah something popped in my head for which she is entirely
innocent. She has written eloquently about women needing to do their part in
the learning process. Her role here was to provide a cantus for my
counterpoint. Not her fault.
Carlos Copello is an amazingly unassuming and charming man. He is one of the
most beautiful tango dancers on the planet, and justly famous, yet he deals
with everyone as if with a friendly neighbour. Alicia is one of the most
beautiful tango dancers on the planet, and she is as charming, if less
communicative. This January I knew them from the celluloid and from my first
exposure to a tango show ever (TA) a few weeks earlier. I am not a groupie,
or do I have to say it, but I fell in love with Copello's dancing from the
first American frame in "Tango Lesson". They performed at Danel and Maria's
milonga, and I was moved by it, nothing less. Then they taught a two hour
seminar sponsored by Danel & Maria. There were twice as many ladies as
gentlemen, something that tends to happen in celebrity seminars --- whereas
the opposite is often the case in regular "intermediate level" classes. I had
a cold, so I just sat and watched. For about half the time Alicia worked on
fine points of technique with half the women, while Carlos worked on a
sequence with the other half and all of the men. Then they switched the
women. Everything pretty rigourous, and correctly pitched for the
participants' experience level (reasonably high). No harsh words, no raised
voices. Just people who are "serious" about tango fairly having a gas. But
teaching sequences, how disappointing, some of you might think. Sure, I
understand. But this was not just any sequence. I had been trying to get
cross-footed walks and system switching off for many months. I knew
(theoretically) the ins and outs of it, and I still could not do it with any
fluency or confidence. That sequence put me in touch with their vocabulary
and it (actually only about half of it, really) set in motion my cross-footed
caminatas and system switching. Not bad for an evening under the weather.
Well, just watching Alicia and Carlos improves your dancing. Perhaps just
being in the same room with them.
This perception difference with Deborah (possibly reflecting an actual
difference) made me think of other experiences. Again, remember that Deborah
is not responsible for any of this. In the spring I translated for Ernesto
Norberto (Pupi) two seminars that he gave in New York. Being my usual
obsessive-compulsive type, I translated every word, and even threw in a
couple of fillers when I saw participants hesitating, because I know E.N.'s
pitch by heart. There is a Bridge to the Tango instructional tape with him
and Luciana Valle. I have scores of tango videos, but this one is my video of
videos. (A lot more people would agree with me if the catalogue pitch did not
create the impression that E.N. is just the ultimate tango funny guy; not
true, he is ALSO the ultimate tango funny guy, though fortunately much less
so these days). I am sure I would be ashamed to tell how many times I have
watched that video --- if I knew. During those seminars I saw people's
dancing, both men's and women's, improve before my eyes. He paid equal
attention to men and women. El 50% lo pone cada bailari'n, 50% comes from
each dancer, he keeps saying (and in this case being translated), and so does
Copes, and so do other masters. For example, he kept reminding everyone to
collect their ankles as part of every stride. He did so in particular for a
woman whom I consider a lovely dancer, but has this "vicio" of striding with
her knees and ankles somewhat disconnected. I kept translating every
reminder. Both were great group classes. The lovely dancer, however, was
literally infuriated by the experience. She thought the seminar was useless,
and the whole experience most embarrassing. (She had not really been put in
an embarrassing situation, and I am sure nobody else thought so.)
Still another case: Carlos Gavito. He teaches here periodically. He is a
great dancer, we all know that. What we do not all know is that he is also a
great teacher, in spite of the idiosyncratic nature of his style. Every hour
spent with Don Carlos makes a difference in your dancing, even though one
hopes that students will not start looking like Carlitoses and Marcelitas in
the evening hours. He tells women that they need to know things, too, and in
no uncertain terms. He spends comparable amounts of time talking about the
woman's and the man's parts, and DEMONSTRATING them. (And how well he
wiggles.) Ladies grumble a lot about his manner (as one put it, his bed side
manner) leaving a lot to be desired, and his seminars are sometimes not so
well attended.
There have been a few excellent postings in the last few months concerning
these types of issues, but they are lost in the deluge of popularity seeking,
condescending, tirades that pass all tests of korrectness but are, not just
utterly unhelpful, but misleading. School masters and other organizers are
scared stiff of complainers. They imagine an empty room, and I do not blame
them. But the result is often that we get a watered down product, because
choices narrow themselves down, as those who know the psychology first are
preferred. It would be great if tango students oversensitive to "criticism",
men OR women, realized that they are shooting themselves on their proverbial
dancing foot when they prefer pap to real teaching; being ego pampered to
being helped; being told how great they are to being told what they need to
do to reach for greatness; when they are less interested in actually
improving than in imagining themselves tango minute made wonders.
Cheers.
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:23:28 -0400
From: Robinne Gray <rlg2 @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Bashing versus useful critique/ also NYC spaces
Hello all,
Most of us, even those who were sent off to ballet class at age four, have
probably learned Argentine tango as adults. And one of the wonderful
things about adult education (there are many) is that we are better
equipped to be self-directed about our learning. We bring our life
experiences to bear and, theoretically at least, we are in a better
position to make informed decisions. Other adults will not make the same
decisions as we do, of course.
I believe there is still a place for informed critique, on this list and in
many other realms. It can help us to be more discerning. My favorite
example is movie reviews: though I didn't always agree with Pauline Kael
(when she wrote for the New Yorker) I still learned a lot about film from
reading her column over the years. There is a world of difference between
saying, "He is a lousy dancer" and saying "I didn't like his teaching
because of he can't explain things and was condescending" or "I don't enjoy
watching him dance because he appears to ignore his partner" or he lifts
his feet up too much or whatever.
I agree with Carlos Lima that "Visible figures...become icons, focal points
for creative controversy." Anyone who wants to enjoy a nation- or
world-wide reputation and charge good money for their teaching and
performing will be terribly unhappy if they are thin-skinned. They become
public figures, of sorts; it comes with the territory. Some people don't
like Daniel Trenner or Pablo Veron, just as some people don't like a
particular actor or musician or author. If the critical comments are
related to teaching or performing, I think they are valid. (Remember the
brief thread speculating on whether a certain female teacher in NYC was
stuck-up or simply shy? Who cares?)
* * * * *
This paragraph isn't tango-related but I am taking advantage of an
opportunity to network with NYC tangueros who may be able to suggest an
elegant Manhattan venue in which to have a panel discussion and anniversary
celebration for an alumnae group of about 100. Many of you have no doubt
been to a few receptions in your day, for your colleges/professional
associations/civic groups /charity fundraisers. Are there any "special"
spaces that stand out in your mind as pleasurable and memorable? Midtown
is best, but other wonderful (and affordable) spots in Manhattan would be
nice to hear about too. Please, let me know!
Thanks,
--Robinne
Ithaca, NY
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:08:41 EDT
From: Mirella Massetti <MMirella @AOL.COM>
Subject: Events in the SF area
A lady friend of mine will be in San Francisco from September 26th to October
2nd. Any particular event in that period either in SF, Oakland and/or
Berkeley? Is there a particularly popular or successful milonga? Please reply
via private e-mail.
Thanks in advance,
Mirella
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:49:20 -0400
From: Stella Robinson <stella_robinson @EMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Will the Real milongero please stand up
I am planning a trip to BA this fall and I have a few questions:
1. Do real milongueros have a preference as to what type of bra a woman
wears during the "nipple-to-nipple" dance? Or maybe they prefer women
without a bra?
2. Do real milongueros wear briefs or boxers?
Gracias,
Stella.
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 23 Aug 2000 to 24 Aug 2000 (#2000-229)
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