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Digest from 22 Aug 2000
to 23 Aug 2000
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 22 Aug 2000 to 23 Aug 2000 (#2000-228)
There are 6 messages totalling 477 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Orlando Paiva & Tango in LA, elsewhere
2. Athenticity & Trenner
3. Instructional tango tapes
4. "Dreaded Tango Critics"
5. teacher bashing (2)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:18:42 -0700
From: Al & Barbara <batango @SLIP.NET>
Subject: Orlando Paiva & Tango in LA, elsewhere
Dear Linda et al,
I was hoping a Los Angeleno might come on board to defend the dancers and
teachers of your fair city, not wanting to enter into the familiar LA versus SF
controversy. So let me first clarify that this isn t about That, except to say
I am happier dancing in Northern California, not only for the quality of the
dancers (although I haven t visited Los Angeles for some years; it s quite
possible that you all are terrific dancers!), but for the ungenerous (am I
being understated or what?) attitiude Linda has expressed so publicly. I hope
it is exclusive to her.
What this is about is that I am particularly concerned with her comments
concerning Orlando Paiva, who, although not famous worldwide as are dozens (soon
to be hundreds) of other professionals, and who has never appeared in a major
show or club, may be the most elegant living tango dancer. And, by the way, he
does not do ever the exaggerated forms of show tango such as lifts, drops,
twirls (God forbid) etc. even in exhibition.
From Linda :
> I have a very different take on the dancing in my city, Los
>Angeles, than was expressed recently by another contributor to this list.
>First (and I think this applies not only to L.A. but to most of this
>country), almost everyone formed their idea as to what tango is from seeing
>tango shows, primarily Tango Argentino and Forever Tango.
>This "show-off
>mentality" is completely at odds with . . .the true milonguero's mentality.
The show-offs and clowns
>still abound in Los Angeles. You can find the show-offs at all of the milongas
here,
>doing their ridiculous "schtick": their multiple ganchos and high boleos on
>crowded floors; their silly poses; their long, memorized show sequences that
>don't go line of dance and take up the entire dance floor; their verbal
>instruction of the women ("now you kick your leg up here, now do an ocho,
>now move my foot, etc., etc." because no one taught them to lead.
I m not saying that this never happens in the Bay Area, but there are only about
4-6 practitioners, among them ballroom dancers and Nuevo Tango types, mostly
quite nice people, in case anyone cares (obviously this is not a consideration
for Linda). The Northern California perpetrators aren t as outrageous as Linda
describes and are usually pretty easy to dance around as we all know who they
are.
>Which brings us to
>another root of the problem: a history of bad teaching which still affects
>the dance here. First, the people who taught here initially in 1986 and 1987
were dancers from Tango
>Argentino. The Dinzels, Mayoral, etc., taught huge classes of hundreds of
>people in venues like the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel. Unfortunately, these
>teachers were not social dancers.
Yes, of course, in every city in the US where TA toured we learned from them,
and thank God for them; there would be no Argentine tango in the US or probably
Europe if they had been too snooty, or less financially motivated, to teach. Of
those who learned tango in 1986 around here, maybe 6-8 of us are still active,
not enough to infect too many with our contagion. But enough to grow a community
which now numbers several thousand and would not exist, or which might have come
into being a decade later, except for the enthusiasm of the original
aficionados who took classes from the non-milongueros: los Dinzel, Mayoral &
Elsa Maria and Nelson. None of us pioneers have failed to evolve, for better
or worse. All of us still dancing have developed in an individual direction;
none of us vaguely resemble (or remember the steps of) Mayoral, Nelson, or the
Dinzels. Hey, I can t remember what I learned last week. And yes, Al and I are
still learning after 15 years.
>After Tango Argentino left town, we had one teacher here,
>Orlando Paiva.
Actually, Orlando was teaching in Los Angeles for some years before TA
arrived he just only became better known as more people were attracted to tango.
>Because they had never seen real social tango, everyone
>thought that what Orlando was teaching was the real thing. However, his is
>not a social style of dancing. It is his own, eccentric form of exhibition
>tango that relies heavily on choreographed steps with names like the
>"alligator."
It s true that Orlando likes to name his combinations, but when he dances
socially he does not do choreography or long combinations. No kidding. I danced
with him on a postage-stamp size floor at Nora s Place in 1987 without problems
or collisions. A point that needs to be made here is that in other areas of
Argentina (Yes, in fact, there is more to Argentina than Buenos Aires, although
BA was and is the birthplace and always center of tango), dance halls evidently
are not as crowded, so the dance elsewhere has developed with larger steps not
practical in the Capital. You will see this in Nito and Elba Garcia s dancing.
>Most of his material does not go line of dance. It either stays
>in one place or ricochets back and forth across the floor. He also did not
>teach anyone to dance to the music. nstead, they were told to dance "inside
>the music," or "within the music."
I am beginning to wonder if Linda has actually ever studied with, or danced with
Orlando (when he lived in LA everyone called him Orlando, never Paiva)
>And they were told that tango has no
>strict rhythm, that you "interpret the rhythm." As I have pointed out to
>numerous Paiva devotees in this town, one interprets the rhythm in any
>dance--swing, salsa, what have you. But first you have to be ON the rhythm
>to be able to interpret it. All of these statements were used to simply
>cover up the fact that Paiva has no rhythm. He danced only to slow music--Di
>Sarli or Pugliese--as s-l-o-w-l-y as possible and disconnected from the
>music.
I have never seen Orlando dance disconnected from the music. How many times
has Linda seen him dance? He does, of course, dance very slowly. This is what
he likes; he likes DiSarli and Pugliese. Some people only like D Arienzo and
Biaggi, and dance only to a very strict beat, rather fast. Some of us (moi) like
tango s variety. For me this embodies the beauty and attraction of tango the
freedom to choose which or all of its forms you prefer, or whichever enhances
your present mood. Carlos Gavito says You step to the beat, but you dance to
the music . One of the most enticing elements of tango that Al and I teach our
students is that you dance to the music, within the beat, but it s not necessary
to step on every beat the sex is in the pauses. Personal opinion. Some people
say tango is not sexy, but sensual. Whatever. And, of course, to D Arienzo,
Biaggi, or in a milonga or vals criollo, one does absolutely dance on the beat.
>And although it has been stated that "no one dances Paiva's style
>here anymore" (gee, if it were only true!), this is unfortunately not the
>case. Many, many people here were either taught directly by Paiva or by
>other "teachers" who were taught by Paiva. And they maintain the same bad
>habits that were instilled in them early on. The men place the woman way
>over on their right side, so that the women look like they're crab-walking
. . . The men cannot walk. They step
>first with the foot way out in front of the body, then follow with the
>pelvis, then finally with the torso. This necessitates the woman leaning on
>the man because she gets no intention from his upper body. She's essentially
>following his feet and being carried on his right hip. They also lead very
>much with the hands and fingers, not with the upper body. The folks who were
>trained that way usually can only dance with other people trained that way.
So what I glean from this is that there are some (? 2, 4, 6 ?) students, or more
likely students of students, of Orlando s in Los Angeles who are lousy dancers
or who have misinterpreted the individuality of his style. And perhaps there are
one or more teachers who teach what they interpret as Orlando s style and
perhaps don t fully understand it, or maybe the teacher understands it but it is
too difficult for the student to comprehend. God knows it is hard enough just to
effectively communicate Don t move your left arm to the average aspiring
leader. Orlando is the most analytical of all the tango maestros we know and/or
have studied with. He has given deep thought, and decades of practice, to every
move he makes or leads his partner to make, for over half a century. It is not
surprising if his students, who may end up teaching after a year or so of study
with him, don t get it all. Orlando s tango is not easy.
>The folks who dance salon tango there (in BA) dance it in close
>embrace, with some occasional separations, depending on what type of figure
>is being led. The argument should be about whether one is dancing within the
>parameters of good tango or not. For example: are both partners on their own
>axis? Can they maintain their own balance thoughout the dance and not
>disturb their partner's? Can the man lead (wordlessly, thank you) any woman
>who knows how to follow, and can the woman follow any man who knows how to
>lead? Does the man lead with his torso, or does he push the woman around
>with his hands and poke his fingers in her spine? Does the woman WAIT for
>each lead before making a movement, or does she "baila sola"? Does she know
>NEVER to change her weight arbitrarily?
Orlando teaches all of these essentials more specifically than almost any
teacher/maestro of whatever experience, fame or reputation I know. Whenever a
step or movement takes one out ot the line of dance he shows how to quickly
correct it. He teaches and practices a torso lead. He requires that each
partner maintain his/her own axis/balance, and insists that the follower does
not baila sola . I remember when Al and I brought Orlando up from Los Angeles
for the first time in 1987 to teach a workshop (the first workshop in the Bay
Area, the entire tango community, some 15 people, were present). Orlando asked
me to demonstrate a step with him. Afterward several people complimented me and
asked if I were a professional dancer. Excuse me, but this was (and would be
today, given my natural talent) ridiculous , but it may illustrate Orlando s
ability to lead and to make his partner look good. (the most desirable quality
in a leader, IMO)
>This is the legacy of the man whom some people here still insist on calling
>"el maestro de maestros"!
Orlando was, and is, not well known worldwide. For this reason I feel it is very
important that Linda s malicious remarks be responded to. He has not travelled
much, does not live in Buenos Aires, and has seldom been seen there. So how has
he become known as el maestro de maestros ? Only because those who do know his
dancing often admire him above everyone else. The first time Nito and Elba
travelled outside of Argentina they stayed at our house for a couple of weeks.
During their leisure time they watched our videos of Orlando, over and over and
over again. Nito was entranced and to this day declares repeatedly in his
classes that Orlando Paiva is his idol, the best tango dancer alive.
>I was trained in Paiva tango for the first two
>years that I danced. On my first trip to Buenos Aires, in 1992, imagine my
>surprise when I found out that first, nobody had even heard of Paiva there
Until a few years ago, no one in Buenos Aires had heard of Nito and Elba., who
are now extremely popular there, not only as a result of their success and
popularity abroad, but because, to travel to the US they had to go through BA,
where they would attend a couple of milongas before embarking. The quality of
their dancing was immediately recognized in the Big Apple. Nevertheless, in the
early 90s Miguel Zotto, at our table, with Danel & Maria present, declared that
Nito Garcia is nobody. No one in Buenos Aires has heard of him. Since then
Osvaldo Zotto has become a good friend and admirer of Nito. BA is rather like
New York the populace considers itself the center of the universe and does not
recognize that high talent could exist elsewhere. Nito and Elba have overcome
this stigma of unknown in Buenos Aires but Orlando hasn t quite, yet.
>and second, everything I had been taught was wrong. (I do not wish to cast
>aspersions here on my first teachers, Michael Walker and Luren Bellucci.
>They are superb dancers and teachers. They were simply teaching what they
>had been taught, and they soon learned that it was not the standard form of
>social tango. They quickly changed their style of dancing and teaching when
>they were exposed to Danel and Maria and many other fine teachers from
>Buenos Aires.)
Danel and Maria were teaching from time to time in Los Angeles at least as early
as 1988; they were friends of Orlando s. When Orlando returned to Argentina in
1988 we alternated in bringing Michael and Luren (Orlando s proteges) and Danel
& Maria (then and now living and teaching in New York) to San Francisco for
workshops. At that time Danel & Maria were admirers of Juan Carlos Copes. In a
1989 or 90 trip to Buenos Aires they studied extensively with Antonio Todaro
after which their teaching reflected his choreography, as does that of both
Zotto brothers. Now that the close embrace style is more popular, Danel and
Maria profess club tango , Eduardo Arquimbao style, unless they have changed
their enthusiasm again. Danel and Maria, understandably enough, considering
their seniority, have developed a following who tend to echo their current
opinions.
I do find it difficult to believe that any dancing problems that Linda
encounters in Southern California can be laid to Orlando s feet (sic!) since he
has been so long gone from California (with recent brief appearances in the last
few years only). At least in the Bay Area, the large percentage of our dancers
are post 1994, and I would be surprised if the Los Angeles pre-1988 tango group
was so huge as to disrupt the line of dance at all the milongas. I tend to
believe (from my snobbish Northern California point-of-view) that Los Angelenos
just like to show off so they can get in the movies ;-). I hopefully invite Mark
and others to contradict me.
I d also like to address the subject of clones . Linda mentioned that Paiva
clones were teaching, from time to time, in Los Angeles. I believe strongly
that each tango dancer (or couple) should develop his/her/their own style in
order to dance tango authentically. On the other hand, learning from different
teachers (especially if one lives outside of Mecca) is the only way to
understand the breadth of tango style and technique in order to develop an
original style. Presumably, value may be obtained by studying with, and passing
on, the knowledge of important maestros. Both Zottos, as is well known, have
learned extensively and borrowed choreographies from, Antonio Todaro. The
Puglieses claim to be passing on the knowledge and innovations of Petroleo. It
seems that every one of the younger and very talented professional dancers these
days has the same background ballet, modern dance, folklore, Todaro (or
followers of), Petroleo via Pugliese, Naviera. Speaking of clones, no matter how
good they are (and boy, are they good!) it s hard to tell them apart. So is it
so terrible that Martin should pass on what he has learned from Orlando Paiva ??
In conclusion here s a story about an evening at one of Ssn Francisco s
favorite milongas. About a year and a half ago, all eyes were on an unknown
couple who were dancing beautifully with extremely simplicity, just walking in
line of dance. A friend of mine (and of Linda s-- the person who first
introduced my husband and myself to Orlando in 1987) remarked on the elegance of
their technique. I replied: Whoever they are, it s obvious that they are
students of Orlando s. I introduced myself to them and so it was they were
from LA and had taken many hours of private classes with Orlando on his recent 3
or 4 trips to California.
Please let s not malign the reputation of dancers on this forum, either by name
or
recognisable description, without major provocation, such as to warn against
fraud or misrepresentation, because with any encouragement I could really
get into it and it wouldn t be pretty ;-)
BTW despite our e-mail address, nothing written by myself or Al has anything
to do with the Bay Area Argentine Tango Association, which we support totally
but with which we are no longer officially associated.
Chau everyone
Barbara
Original Message-----
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thursday, August 17, 2000 12:01 AM
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Aug 2000 to 17 Aug 2000 (#2000-222)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:39:11 MDT
From: Lynne Butler <lynneoaks @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Athenticity & Trenner
Tango-L
I'm sure Daniel Trenner doesn't need someone as new to tango as I am
defending him-but I'd like to echo Chas and agree that Trenner's magic is
opening the door to the new with a grand welcome. The first teacher for
many of us in Salt Lake City was Florencia- who is, of course, a brilliant
and beautiful tanguera from Buenos Aires. Alas, we were all rank beginners
when she came, enchanted with tango but pretty much paralyzed with shame at
being North American, eager to please but terrified to touch each other.
Poor Florencia. She must have felt like Alice spinning through the rabbit
hole. (Actually, most anyone can feel that way in Salt Lake City). But she
did her best with us and she left us fully understanding the importance of
"connection" and with a desperate desire to improve. Trenner (and one of
his students who taught us, Andre) had a nice gift for taking some of the
anxiety out of that desire - I suppose we felt forgiven for not being born
in Buenos Aires and laughed enough with them that we were ready to let the
dance come to us. We've continued to have some great teachers from BA and
the US- Tomas, Brooke,Susana, Metin, Christopher, and soon Luciana. And if
authenticity consists, as Chas suggests, in understanding the power of
connection, of musicality, of embrace, of improvisation - then, as different
as they are, every teacher we've had brought this authenticity with them.
Lynne Butler, Salt Lake City
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:58:22 EDT
From: Bill Crist <Crist1 @AOL.COM>
Subject: Instructional tango tapes
Dear List:
I recently purchased 4 new video tapes by "Carlos and Alicia" from Mark-Joan
Tango Events. These are the best on the market, they set a new standard by
which the others are to be judged. Overhead shots, motional diagrams, each
partner separately, then slowly, then together, then variations. I can't
praise them enough.
I have absolutely no financial or other interest in this company.
Bill
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:54:45 -0700
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: "Dreaded Tango Critics"
Linda Valintino asks the very astute question: "How does he (Mark Celaya)
know how much someone else practices?"
The answer is very simple: They tell me.
Cheers,
Mark Celaya
Los Angeles
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Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:34:02 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: teacher bashing
I for one would like to see all this teacher bashing stopped.
We get no where by doing this. I for one have a lot of admiration for Daniel
Trenner, and give him a lot of credit for what he is doing and how he is
doing it. I also love and adore Danel and Maria. They have taught me a great
deal of what I'm doing presently. All that aside, what any person gets out of
any instructor - workshop, is what you put into it. Garbage in garbage out.
If you take what information anyone gives you and try it once, twice, three
times and see if it works for you, I guarantee you'll improve in your tango.
Not all information fits every person, so try to understand this.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:15:44 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: teacher bashing
Timothy Pogros pleads thus:
>
I for one would like to see all this teacher bashing stopped.
<
It is not a simple matter to draw the line between commenting on, with the
possibility of a negative assessment, and bashing. I suppose bashing would be
the systematic punishment of a class of individuals, or a visible individual,
whom vulgar culture (these days called political korrectness, average people
love euphemisms) took to scapegoating for a lot of perceived problems. Some
people think this is a new thing, but it is VERY OLD. I have even heard that
political korrectness was a VERY POPULAR concept in Germany in the 30's
(coincidently also a great time for tango.) I am NOT UNaware of the
phenomenon. But what is going on here is not bashing, I do not think.
Since there are some perceived problems with the way people approach the
dance in the USA and elsewhere outside the Rioplatense motherland (and I have
been led to believe that it is not all that different there, either, just a
different mix of the same problems) it is legitimate to ask what could be
done to improve the situation. Teachers as a class would have to take
responsibility in any case, it is their baby. But I think it goes beyond
that, as I have hinted at in prior posts. The main reason why people go about
shenanigans entirely out of character, and sometimes dangerous, is not that
they have been taught "the wrong kind of tango". I have taken instruction
from MANY people, and NO one taught me a "wrong tango". The problem is that
teachers AS A CLASS (e.g., in the USA) have not developed to satisfactory
standards of knowledge and quality, and this can be, and has been here and
there, reduced to precise statements of deficiency. We all would benefit if
we moved forward this process of (self) examination, without exaggerated
concern for possibly bruised egos. A teacher conducting business must expect
to remain open for the judgment of the market: the verbal as well as the
pedal (voting with one's feet).
I personally prefer to talk about the teaching than about specific teachers,
for the same reason that I prefer a sound peace to even a "just" war, if a
sound peace is possible. But it is not illegitimate to warn others of what we
view as not so great product, and I certainly do a fair amount of that in
private. It is the market again. What people who make personal attacks should
be criticized for is the use of insults and generalities, i.e., calling
someone something without even a hint of a reason for the accusation or the
epithet.
When it comes to significant leaders, e.g., not just any teacher but a
teacher's teacher, the legitimacy of what may look like "bashing" cannot be
questioned. Visible figures have that as a role, they become icons, focal
points for creative controversy. One can look at the "Orlando Paiva affair"
as unfair bashing vs defense, and take sides against bashing; or one can see
it as a valid controversy. I cannot decide at this point who I am going to
find myself agreeing more with, because I never saw the man or his dancing,
and I have no compelling reason to decide the issue. All I can say now is
that I can clearly see somebody making the negative remarks made here against
OP, or for that matter producing the eloquent defences posted here, as a
result of poor judgment, rather than fair assessment of the man's
shortcomings or virtues. The discussion has raised issues that I may look
into if I need to, so it has been useful, and OP's stature has not been
compromised.
This reminds me of recent disguised advertisements on behalf of the Ricardo
and Nicole's instructional videos. From watching one of them repeatedly at a
friend's home, I have a bad impression of their style. May have been their
walking, I do not remember. The advertisements did not make me abandon my
misgivings, nor did they make me come out and contradict the praise piled on
them. What they did was make me think that I will take another look when
possible, and either identify the flaws exactly, or abandon my misgivings.
This is one of the ways that advertising works. If one-sided (positive)
advertising is viewed as legitimate, and there are OODLES of advertising and
self promotion on the lists!, then criticism must be equally acceptable.
Cheers.
PS - I might as well round it off here. If dance teachers want to be
respected, individually and as a class, and want to escape the worst
criticism, they must realise that they have a long history to contend with.
Teaching social dancing was largely a racket in the 1700's, and it is largely
a racket today. Do I have to draw a picture?
But, you know, other "respectable" professions are rackets too. We do not
live in a perfect world. However, a person who, like myself, did A LOT of
teaching in previous lives cannot but be amazed at how social and
pre-competitive partner dancing is "taught". People ask me to please believe
that the average dance teacher is not really trying to make every possible
obvious mistake in the book for the purpose of students learning badly,
inefficiently, or not at all. OK, I cannot prove bad intent, so I guess I
have to believe the unbelievable. But I will say this. If mathematics were
taught as unpedagogically as partner dances typically are, science as we know
it would come to a dead halt.
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 22 Aug 2000 to 23 Aug 2000 (#2000-228)
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