The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 21 Aug 2000
to 22 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 03:00:35 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 21 Aug 2000 to 22 Aug 2000 (#2000-227)
There are 13 messages totalling 526 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Will the Real milongero please stand up
2. Critics.
3. Critics in the milongas
4. Drop the Cholulo
5. "Dreaded Tango Critics"
6. Fancy footwork
7. Daniel Lapadula in Dallas: Comments
8. Authentic Denver Cowboys
9. What is a Milonguero? Part 2
10. NA-E: News from Triangulo in New York City
11. Cholulo patron bites the dust
12. Nito & Elba Thank All of You For Your Help And Kindness
13. I'll second this
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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:41:05 -0500
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Will the Real milongero please stand up
I have danced many places in Europe, the USA and I have visited B.A 3x and
will go again this year. My comments are my personal experience only.
I have had breathtaking dances with Argentines and European men that have
from 5 to ? years of tango experience. They have ranged in ages from 30 to
55. It was the passion of their expression and how they connected to me
that made the dance breath taking, not their age, nationality or years on
the dance floor.
Breathtaking is a personal connection between the dancers. To dance with a
milongero viejo that dances well but I develop no feeling for is pleasant
but not breath taking.
I don't look for the labels. I want the experience of connection with the
other.
Another personal comment. If the milongero viejo is very fat and sweaty hot
in that jacket, which many are, I have a beautiful dance but they don't
sweep me away. There are many levels of the dance experience. It feels odd
to dance with a large stomach and not their chest.
Oh and all those breath taking experiences were in the close embrace, not
the open-salon style.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:13:47 +1200
From: Mark Sidebotham <sidey @CALLPLUS.NET.NZ>
Subject: Critics.
Hopefully the wisdom of Sergio and Mark Celaya will go some way to at least
reduce the torrent of negative opinion that we have been subjected to on
this list recently. I remember my father saying as if it were yesterday "If
you haven't anything nice to say, don't say anything." I always thought
this was just his advice to me as a child. He died early, and so it took
many long hard years and many painful experiences to realise that he was
stating a truth as pertinent in middle or old age as it was in childhood. I
will print Sergio and Mark's postings out and make them compulsory reading
for all my future students. So.....What is a critic, but one who cannot do
and further who cannot be silent or approving about those who do. Did we
see any of our critics offering demonstrations or classes in major cities
and expecting to have a big audience or a lot of students? I don't think
so. That takes courage. And faith in what you are doing.
If tango is your goal and your dream, then go out and do it. Don't let
anyone steal your dreams! Just dream big, imagine a tango which is way
beyond where you are now, and strive for it. No we're not perfect. But by
God we haven't given up!
'Nuff said. Check the quote at the bottom of this if you aren't
enraged/fired up enough already. Love to all.........\\ark.
Phone +64 4 382-8889
Cellphone 025 201-8681
Voicemail 0832-74996
"Often the only thing standing between a man and his dreams
is the will to do what is necessary
and the faith to believe it is possible" - R. DeVos.
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:05:38 -0700
From: Linda Valentino <LindaValentino @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Critics in the milongas
Actually, Sergio, I should have clarified my previous statement. I
absolutely DO NOT believe in teaching or criticizing a partner on the SOCIAL
dance floor. I agree with you that the criticism belongs in classes and
practicas. I never criticize or instruct someone I'm dancing with in a
milonga, even one of my own students--even when they ask me to correct them
in the milonga. You're right. People go to the milonga to dance and enjoy
themselves, not to be taught. My response was to Michael Ditkoff's statement
that women should "just say no" to bad leaders. I'm afraid that if we just
decline to dance with people, the men may not get the message that their
leads need improving. They may just think that the woman in question doesn't
like them for some reason. But if we nicely explain to the man (in the
appropriate venue) that we have a problem following him, then maybe he can
take some specific steps to correct the problem.
--Linda
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:53:00 -0600
From: Chas Gale <Chuck.Gale @IHSENERGY.COM>
Subject: Re: Drop the Cholulo
It wasn't my intention to become the unwitting pawn in Jorge's attack of these
lovely people. Jorge, it would be easy for someone to associate me with your
comment. Therefore please refrain from using my name in any further such
attacks. Thank you. Also, if you have anything further to say to, or about me,
please include a definition of "cholulo". Silvia failed to answer my query in
that regard.
Also; I'm always curious where "you" are from. That is; what is your point of
reference? Where do you live? I for one, would like to see the city or origin
with everyone's signature.
But that's just me. And I am;
Chas "I have tangoed (but not recently) in snake skin cowboy boots." Gale
Denver, Colorado, USA
=========================================================================
***MR. "Trenner Cholulo Patron" (aka Chas Gale, Denver, Colorado) writes:
"If you are trying to lay blame for the arguably pitiful skill level of tango in
the United States at the feet of Daniel Trenner, that is thoroughly unfair."
He has a point. Danel and Maria of NYC are probably the most influential Tango
teachers in the USA, and are, at the very least, just as responsible for the
horrible level of U.S. dancers.
Love and peace to all,
Jorge.***
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:53:01 -0700
From: Linda Valentino <LindaValentino @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Re: "Dreaded Tango Critics"
Well, where do I begin to answer Mark Celaya? Maybe the best thing to say is
the old adage, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." Just ask people
who have been trained exclusively or primarily in "estilo Paiva" if they can
easily dance with people who have not been trained in that style. Better
yet, ask the people with whom they're dancing how it feels. I'm willing to
bet most will say it's uncomfortable, some will say it's downright
unpleasant. Then ask the folks who dance this style and who have been to
Buenos Aires if any of them (primarily the men, but also the women) were
able to dance successfully there. I can give you the names of numerous
people in this city who were terribly disillusioned after going there and
finding that they a) could not dance in a small or crowded space without
crashing into or kicking other people, b) could not lead/follow people not
trained in the same style, c) didn't know how to dance on the rhythm, d)
couldn't use the many fancy steps they had spent years and thousands of
dollars
learning and memorizing, and e) did not know how to improvise.
As regards musicality--ask just about any Argentinean (including Danel) who
knows tango what they think of Paiva's dancing. They may tell you they think
his feet are beautiful. They may tell you he is elegant. They may tell you
he has interesting steps. But nearly all of them say--in almost the same
exact words--"Paiva baila afuera la musica." He doesn't dance on the music.
I guess all of these Argentineans who grew up listening to and dancing tango
have no musicality. They're all wrong and Mark Celaya is right. This will be
big news to Carlos Copello (gee, if only he had some musicality!), Miguel
Zotto, Nestor Ray and I can name many others. Oh, well, I guess these guys
have to go back to school.
Mark himself said that people have abandoned Paiva's style because no on
could replicate it. That should tell you right there that it's not a style
for social dancing, or that the teaching is not effective. If someone is
teaching something that no one else can do (or that no one else can do
WELL), something is wrong with what is being taught or HOW it's being
taught. He chooses to blame a student's inability to dance well on the
student. They don't practice enough. They don't do what they're told. They
have an innate inability. Talk about no class! How does he know how much
someone else practices? Maybe they try to do what they're told, but the
teacher is not communicating it effectively. There are very few people who
are innately unable to learn to dance. If one of my students just isn't
getting it, I look first to myself as the teacher. I'm doing something
wrong, or at least I haven't found the key to communicating the concepts to
that person. So I work harder, or I try a different technique. I don't
"blame the victim."
As regards my (and many other organizers') policy of only bringing teachers
if I have taken classes with them and know them to be effective teachers,
how can anyone in their right mind criticize this? This isn't "censorship."
It's common sense. Would you buy a car without driving it first? Would you
hire someone to decorate your house without seeing some examples of their
work? When I recommend a teacher to my students and other people (and when
one organizes a workshop, that is what one is doing) I am vouching for their
quality and ability as a teacher. They are spending their limited tango
dollars and they don't want to waste them.
Finally, thanks to the more than 30 people from L.A. and all over the
country who responded to me privately or in person to thank me and agree
with my original
posting (amazingly, no one responded negatively). We CAN build a larger,
better tango community if we dedicate ourselves to promoting tango as "un
baile popular"--a SOCIAL dance that we dance for the music, our partners and
ourselves, while respecting the space of other couples around us--NOT a
dance where people go out on the social floor, do every complicated show
pattern they know without regard to the other people on the floor and
compete for applause.
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:44:48 0100
From: John Sullivan <tangofan @020.CO.UK>
Subject: Fancy footwork
Friends,
I am curious to know if any sort of fancy footwork is possible when practicing
the much discussed "nipple-to-nipple" style, a.k.a. "heart-to-heart" or
"tick-tack-toe". I don't mean the adornos by the lady, but some interesting
steps by the gentleman, steps that are more than a basic salida. I have seen
quite a few couples in Europe that dance such a style and they do fine while
walking, eyes closed, the blissful smile, et al. But as soon as the gentleman
tries anything fancy, the lady trips over his foot. What's wrong with that
picture? Is it the man? Is it the woman? Is it both? Or is it the limitation of
the style? Or all of the above?
Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject,
John Sullivan.
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:53:21 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Daniel Lapadula in Dallas: Comments
Daniel Lapadula recently taught a workshop in club-style tango at
Salon Pavadita in Dallas, (August 17, 19 and 20). As Daniel teaches
club-style tango it has slightly offset close embrace, an upright body
posture, allows for a little separation on the turns, but has
syncopated timing and uses the ocho cortado.
In his Thursday night class, Daniel taught general technique that is
applicable to both club-style and salon-style dancing. In his
Saturday classes, Daniel taught basic elements of club-style tango.
On Sunday, he taught techniques in body management for club-style
tango through exercises and a series steps and patterns that
emphasized the techniques.
I found Daniel to be an excellent dancer and his instruction to be
first rate. If one could possibly retain and master everything Daniel
taught, they would have concluded the workshop with a good command of
club-style tango. Dallas tango dancers gave Daniel and his teaching
such an enthusiastic reception that he and his local sponsor (Lisa
Ellison) have planned for him to return September 14-17.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:28:39 -0600
From: Chas Gale <Chuck.Gale @IHSENERGY.COM>
Subject: Re: Authentic Denver Cowboys
---Neil from Atlanta wrote in part---
"""In a few days, I'll be traveling to Denver in search
of a beautiful tall authentic milonguera."""
That will be easy Neil. All the Denver tangueras are beautiful. Most are
authentic and we seem to have a greater percentage of tall ones than the
population in general. They (the tall ones) will be glad to see you. Don't get
me wrong. Our Tallgueras get plenty of dancing. The shorter leaders love dancing
with them. Especially the Tallgueras in the low cut dresses. That's why we are
such big fans of the close embrace. (I'm not quite short enough to take
advantage of this, ah, relationship so I just stare.) Some of the shorter guys
have trouble though. If she raises her right hand too much the poor fellow ends
up dangling above the dance floor. (Help me!!! Heeeeelllllllp meeeeeee!!!) The
particularly buxom Tallgueras present another problem. One of our most
diminutive leaders gets around that with the aid of a snorkel.
"""What would be a good test to determine
whether someone was an authentic cowboy/milonguero?"""
Can he hit the spittoon from the dance floor without soiling his followers hair?
"""If you have strong
horsemanship skills, does that make you a more
authentic cowboy/milonguero?"""
No, but it probably makes you a better leader.
Welcome in advance to Denver Neil. Will you be here for the Labor Day weekend
tango exchange?
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:31:32 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: What is a Milonguero? Part 2
A few days ago I talked about a minimal definition of "milonguero."
But it's quite clear that some people talk about a maximum definition.
They're not talking about mere milongueros. They are talking about the
exalted few: Milongueros with a capital "M". Or maybe even
MILONGUEROS. The saints of tango. Perfection, in other words.
This kind of definition is pretty stupid. Consider the implications.
It's unfair because NO milonguero is perfect. The best of us get
tired, or drink one glass of wine too many, or get depressed because
of personal tragedy. Some of the oldest aren't as spry as they used to
be. And there are some who have all the soul & feel for music &
sensitivity to their partners that anyone could wish - but, frankly,
they've always been & always will be just a bit of a klutz.
It's unfair because it puts all the responsibility of a good dance on
the man. But women are just as responsible. Consider all the women you
know. Think of the two or three who drink too much & then complain
that no one dances with them. The ones who NEVER take lessons or
practice because "I'm a natural dancer" or "If the man is a good
enough leader I can follow anything."
It also assumes no character flaws. If you expect perfection, what is
your reaction going to be when you have a wonderful dance from a
famous milonguero & later find out that he went back to his pals &
described your physical attributes in long & crude detail? (This is
not a made-up example. If you go back perhaps a year in TANGO-L
archives you'll find out exactly who I'm talking about.)
But a milonguero may act the perfect gentleman but still dance with
you for reasons other than your dance skill. It might be looks, or
presumed availability for sex, or your affluence - or because you
remind him of his daughter. If you expect only abstract dedication to
dancing or to tango this may sour your memories of all your terrific
dances when you find out about it. But if you expect a real human you
can laugh & savor the memories with (perhaps wry) appreciation.
Another problem with the Milonguero stereotype is that all too often
it implicitly defines a milonguero as an older man. This is unfair
because there are milongueros of all ages, & some of the youngest ones
are pretty terrific - & not just athletically or because of
looks. Some of them are just as empathetic with their partners &
attuned to the music as those of a much older age.
And lastly the Milonguero stereotype is unfair because it implies that
only an Argentine can a milonquero. Tango may have originated in
Argentina & Uruguay, but now it belongs to the world. There are
milongueros - & milongueras - everywhere.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:54:40 EDT
From: Carina Moeller <Carinaaa @AOL.COM>
Subject: NA-E: News from Triangulo in New York City
News from Triangulo, the only exlusively tango studio in NYC.
Special Milonga workshop with Angel Garcia and Carina Moeller Tuesday
August 29th:
Advanced milonga : 7 - 8pm
Beginner/Intermediate Milonga: 8.15 - 9.15pm
$20 for one Workshop ( $35 for two) + free admission for the Tango Salon
afterwards.
Tango salon every Tuesday from 9.30pm to 1am
New beginner classes in argentine tango are starting Wednesdays:
September 6th,
October 4th,
November 8th.
Times for the classes at Triangulo are slightly changing for the fall:
Beginner: Wednesday 7.30pm,
Intermediate 1: Wednesday 8.30pm,
Intermediate 2: Tuesday 8.15pm,
Advanced: Tuesday 7pm
Triangulo
675 Hudson Street #3N ( on 14th)
New York City, NY 10014
Phone (212) 633-6445
http://www.tangonyc.com
mailto:carina @tangonyc.com
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:22:27 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Cholulo patron bites the dust
Silvia Borelli:
>
I find it surprising that all these complains about the poor quality of Tango
in the USA are coming from the Trenner Cholulo Patron (or is it Suzana Miller
now). (sic)
<
Since Ms. Borelli did not respond to my private inquiry about her "Cholulo
Patron", I did a bit of "research". Actually I just typed 'Cholulo' to
Google, a minute ago, but in the USA people start doing "research" in
kindergarten, then I have to put up with all of these C minus students trying
to be recognized for their "contributions" in the various bureaucracies I
have been privileged to work for.
'Cholulo' means something like a trendy, faddish, character, typically also
star struck, a groupie, interested in nothing but fashions and the lives of
show business celebrities. It can also be used as an adjective, meaning
faddish, etc., as in "Rosa es muy cholula".
"Cholulo Patro'n" or "Patro'n Cholulo" mean nothing recognizable, so I
believe she meant "Patrono Cholulo del Sr. Trenner", i.e., "Mr. Trenner's
Groupie Patron". This is also what you get by regarding "Patron" as an
English word in the original. Taking this tack, "Trenner's Cholulo Patron"
becomes the first example of anglonfardo I have ever encountered. If it
should turn out to be the FIRST occurrence ON RECORD, make sure to credit me
properly for my priority in recognizing and naming it.
Scholarship is wonderful. Cheers.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:20:49 GMT
From: Alexis White <alexisltc @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Nito & Elba Thank All of You For Your Help And Kindness
Nito & Elba would like to sincerely thank everyone throughout the many
places in the USA where they have taught for their concern, good wishes and
donations towards the treatment and cure of their grand daughter Milagro.
Milagro is suffering from a severe but curable neurological-motor disorder.
She is scheduled to begin treatment and rehabilitation soon. Nito and Elba
have dedicated this year's teaching tour to raising the necessary funds to
treat Milagro's disease. Many people in the tango community throughout the
world, on hearing of her plight have responded with an outpouring of
financial support to help Nito & Elba: there have been benefit milongas and
other spontaneous events and acts of kindness in cities such as San
Francisco and Sacramento. And there are several benefit concert/shows in
Buenos Aires and in cities such as Los Angeles scheduled in the upcoming
weeks with some of the great stars in tango from 'Tango X2' , 'Forever
Tango' and 'Tango Pasion' to name a few.
Nito & Elba want to thank each and every one of you from the bottom of their
hearts for your unsolicited and spontaneous help, acts of kindness and
positive hopeful thoughts, that have made it possible for Milagro to begin
her rehabilitation. For that they are eternally grateful
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:34:04 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: I'll second this
3B6425C24F54FBBA950211AF
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Linda and tango-l,
>
Aside from everything else, truly, wouldn't you agree?
> "We CAN build a larger,
> better tango community if we dedicate ourselves to promoting tango as "un
> baile popular"--a SOCIAL dance that we dance for the music, our partners and
> ourselves, while respecting the space of other couples around us--NOT a
> dance where people go out on the social floor, do every complicated show
> pattern they know without regard to the other people on the floor and
> compete for applause".
>
Eugenia
3B6425C24F54FBBA950211AF
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<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>Linda and tango-l,</pre>
</blockquote>
Aside from everything else, truly, wouldn't you agree?
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>"We CAN build a larger,
better tango community if we dedicate ourselves to promoting tango as "un
baile popular"--a SOCIAL dance that we dance for the music, our partners and
ourselves, while respecting the space of other couples around us--NOT a
dance where people go out on the social floor, do every complicated show
pattern they know without regard to the other people on the floor and
compete for applause".</pre>
</blockquote>
Eugenia</html>
3B6425C24F54FBBA950211AF--
End of TANGO-L Digest - 21 Aug 2000 to 22 Aug 2000 (#2000-227)
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