The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 20 Aug 2000
to 21 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 20 Aug 2000 to 21 Aug 2000 (#2000-226)
There are 5 messages totalling 311 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. authenticity
2. Why is everyone so angry?
3. Critics at the milongas.
4. lunfardo dictionary online?
5. The DTC & "Why are so many people angry?"
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:28:14 -0600
From: Madhav Apte <mapte @POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: authenticity
Dear List:
It hurts me to think that culture, race or time can be thought of
as being mandatory ingredients to dance a real Tango. One can look
at the history of Argentina, understand its culture and see what has
contributed to the dance as it is today. There is no question that
the social and economic conditions in Argentine history informed the
dance.
However, there is a quality about Tango that has reached the hearts
of people from a variety of cultures and backgrounds - that's us.
We have experienced that Tango moves us - physically, emotionally
and in some cases, spiritually. We love this song between a man
and a woman. We adore its kinesthetics.
Wherein, then, shall I find the gall to say to two people who are
dancing as one, who in this moment have quieted all of themselves
and are focused only on the qualities of movement and feeling, that
because a group of people decided that certain factors comprise
authentic tango, and because they lack one or more of these, that
their dance is not authentic?
Searching for authenticity as prescribed by a group of people is
sure to be pursuit of small returns. You can get there, but having
arrived, you would find that you have lost much and gained little.
How much better to ask - what qualities make dancing the Tango
a transcendent experience? Let us learn whatever is necessary to
understand and create these qualities in ourselves.
Let us make no more of it than that.
The sweet water of Tango has poured forth from a lovely vase. Let us
not mistake the water with the vase.
Madhav Apte
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 12:34:07 -0700
From: Linda Valentino <LindaValentino @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Re: Why is everyone so angry?
I agree with Michael Ditkoff's comments re women and bad leaders. Women have
got to start saying no to bad leaders
and explaining (nicely) that they are not leading clearly or effectively. By
the same token, men should explain (nicely) to the women if they are not
following well, DESPITE a good lead. (I think we all know women who don't
wait for the lead and who, when led into one ocho, will do two or three more
on their own! And not all of these are women who've only just starting
dancing.)
Also (and this was really the point of my previous posting), as tango
consumers we have to start saying no to bad teaching. After a class or
workshop with either a resident or visiting teacher we have to ask
ourselves, "What did I really learn? Is my balance better? Is my quality of
movement better? Is my leading/following better? Is my rhythm better? Do I
have a better understanding of the music, and is my interpretation
improving? Do I really feel like I'm DANCING tango and not just doing tango
steps?" If you can't answer yes to at least half of these questions, and all
you can say is, "I learned some new figures," then, in my opinion, something
is wrong with the teaching. And for those who say, "I'm just doing this to
have fun," that's fine. But it's even more fun when you dance well, both for
yourself and for the people with whom you're dancing. I don't expect myself
or anyone else to become Miguel Zotto/Milena Plebs, or Carlos/Alicia, et.al.
But don't we all want to dance to the best of our own individual ability?
--Linda Valentino
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 16:05:17 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Critics at the milongas.
Linda Valentino wrote:
>"I agree with Michael Ditkoff's comments re women and bad leaders. Women
have
>got to start saying no to bad leaders and explaining (nicely) that they are
not leading clearly or effectively. By
>the same token, men should explain (nicely) to..."
Linda feels that we should criticize each others dance problems. I am of the
opinion that we should do that very reluctantly and only if asked when in
the social context. Each one should dance with those that can dance, for
enjoyment and try to help those that are learning if so inclined by dancing
and leading them but with no criticism.
My opinion is that when I go dancing, I want to enjoy myself, I do not go to
the milongas to educate, to correct or to teach.
I try to dance the best that I can trying to make sure that my partner has a
good time, independently of her skill, her anticipations or her "mistakes".
I am there to avoid leading moves that she will not be able to follow and to
compensate for any technical limitations on her part. This way we both can
have a great time, she will learn from dancing an following.
The only comment I might make if I am asked to criticize, is "try to wait
for the lead, do not anticipate, don't do anything unless you are lead." In
this respect I agree with Linda.
As to Linda's advice with respect to being selective with respect to
teachers I agree entirely when it refers to beginner students. Once you have
the elements she mentions, balance, rhythm, musicality, etc., you might want
to attend a workshop because you are particularly interested in somebody's
style, because you might want to learn to do certain moves the way that
instructor executes them, because he dances differently than you do, you
like the way he moves, etc.
In summary dance with whoever you whish, have a good time, try not to
criticize, do not talk while dancing, do not teach at the milongas. If you
are interested in teaching or correcting invite a person to the practicas.
Avoid dancing with the critics that lead moves that you are unable to
follow. Avoid dancing with the followers that antagonize your lead
willingly.
Always have a great time and make sure your partner does the same.
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 17:56:38 -0500
From: Elena Robles <M-Robles @NEIU.EDU>
Subject: lunfardo dictionary online?
Can anyone tell me where I can find a Lunfardo dictionary online. Or
the name of a good lunfardo dictionary to purchase.
Elena
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:38:03 -0700
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: The DTC & "Why are so many people angry?"
Michael Ditkoff asks the very astute question: "Why are so many people
angry?"
Contributing to this growing anger are some more recent as well as
ludicrous statements from a few list members: "...Paiva has no rhythm";
"Danel & Maria...are...just as responsible for the horrible level of U.S.
dancers".
You know, in the 9 years that I have been involved with tango I`ve
noticed a curious species of individuals that has evolved on the North
American Tango scene. These "creatures" have crept onto the scene in
various fashions, some very subtlely, others very abruptly. All of them
carry an air of arrogance about them, a psuedo-intellectualism claiming
to possess the "TRUTH'' for everyone. They use it to attack; to viciously
maligne those who are not "in tune" with whatever they are all about.
They are constantly bombarding us with a sea of negativity, painting a
gloomy picture of despair. Enjoying the tango apparently is a sin that
must be repented of. Here in North America they are known as the DTC,
that is, the "Dreaded Tango Critic".
The DTC has evolved from the early days of simply directing us as to what
steps are proper, what manners & styles are proper, to now even telling
us what dancers & instructors are proper. The DTC must first dance with &
approve the teaching prospect before they`ll allow us to be exposed to
that
particular one. If that dancer is not approved of, there is usually an
inquisition on Tango-L. The DTC has become the authority of tango in
North America.
A few months ago, the DTC began their hearings on a few well-known tango
dancer/teachers by the names of: Carlos Gavito, Fabian Salas, & more
extensively, Juan Carlos Copes. The debates were very heated; Sr. Copes
was accused of original sin. Fortunately, all three gentlemen were
acquitted & allowed to continue with their careers here in North America,
but with strong reprimands & under close scrutiny. New accusations have
now been brought up against another maybe not so well-known but never the
less, a very unique & unconventional dancer by the name of Orlando Paiva.
Sr. Paiva is accused of having no rhythm in his dancing, of not teaching
line of dance, of misguiding the men to walk the tango, of teaching no
lead/follow, of creating "female crab-like creatures" on the floor. These
accusations were brought forth from someone who has never taken a class
with Orlando Paiva.
There is a fascinating new documentary/video soon to be released
entitled: "THE ENDLESS TANGO". In it, there are some very interesting as
well as candid interviews with Danel & Maria & also Michael Walker &
Luren Belluci (2 very well known superb North American tango
performers/instructors). Michael & Luren have trained extensively with
many "masters" in Buenos Aires. Michael, in his interview, mentions only
2 instructors/couples who have influenced him the most, to whom he will
be eternally grateful: Danel & Maria, and Orlando Paiva. In speaking of
Orlando, Michael calls him a "wonderful milonguero...dances with so much
feeling".
I onced asked Danel his opinion of Orlando; he answered emphatically:
"He`s a beautiful dancer".
The fact of the matter is that in all his classes, in every single
pattern that he teaches, Orlando emphasizes the "line of dance". I have
literally hours & hours of video to back this up. "Respeto a las otras
parejas" (Respect for the other couples) is what he always preached.
Regarding lead & follow, Orlando was the only teacher to explain that
lead/follow means that the man only indicates where/what the woman dances
& that once she takes the lead the man PHYSICALLY FOLLOWS HER, throughout
the dance. He indicates to her from his "center'' (solar plexus) so that
there is no pushing/pulling, conflict, tension. He is a strong advocate
of the close embrace. In many of his classes he had the students just
walking in this close embrace to the music, showing that this was the
most difficult aspect of the dance as well as the most important to
learn. His philosophy in social dancing is the same: "walk the tango with
no more than 1 or 2 figures in each dance."
For someone to state that Orlando Paiva has no rhythm in his dancing is
completely absurd. It only displays her lack of musical as well as dance
understanding, her lack of professionalism, & tells the world what we
here in Los Angeles already know: she has NO CLASS.
As far as the fact that many students of Orlando or of any teacher for
that matter, dance poorly, this is due to usually 1 of 2 things: a small
aptitude for dancing or failure to practice what is taught. Most teachers
that I`ve seen give some instruction on tecnique & balance & music; &
I`ve also notice that it usually goes in one ear & out the other with
most students.
The same basic dynamic/tecnique applies not only to both Paiva`s style as
well as the more common chest lead style, but also to all forms of dance,
athletics, etc. And that is utilizing one`s center or solar plexus
properly. Wherever that goes the rest of the body "follows". Balance
requires that the center be placed either directly over the supporting
part of the foot (either ball or heel) when balanced on one leg in the
close position or obviously between the 2 feet in the open position.
Because of the leverage of our foot (from toe to ankle joint), we can
actually create an illusion of leaning into our partner by placing our
center over the ball of the foot & still being perfectly balanced. In
Orlando`s style, both man & woman are in a constant state of equilibrium
& it is a wonderful experience when it is done correctly.
The same applies to the more common chest lead in the close embrace. Many
men fail to connect their upper torso/chest area with their solar plexus
& therefore "lunge" at their partner. In the woman`s case, if she
neglects her center also, she will feel very heavy, as if she is hanging
on with her upper body. All this tecnique & body dynamics of course is
not the tango; it only enables one to enjoy it more.
So what is the tango? I prefer the explanation of Juan Carlos Copes in
his book, "Bailemos Tango": "I want to make clear that there is not and
there has never been anyone in the world who has been the owner of the
"truth" about the dance-tango. Since it expresses feelings, it cannot
have a fixed shape." Whether his declaration is true, is not for me to
say. The only people that I have ever heard claim to possess this "truth"
are a few North Americans & Susanna Miller. Tango dancers from Europe
appear to genuinely enjoy the dance without worrying about what anyone
calls it which is very refreshing to me.
Another criticism of the DTC is against the organizers in North America.
The tango organizer who was once admired for his/her efforts to give
his/her community the tango which would otherwise not happen at all; of
bringing teachers, music, videos from Argentina to his community which
they never had before & who is rewarded little for his/her efforts, is
now under strong attack nationwide for one main reason: His/her failure
to make the dancers of his/her community look like those of Buenos Aires.
As if we organizers are some miracle workers able to take a bunch of
"gringos" who have been dancing for a few years & transform them into the
same Latin American culture/society that has taken 120+years to develope;
as if we would ever want to.
The strong reality is that this will never happen. Buenos Aires dances
Buenos Aires style because they ARE Buenos Aires - their culture, their
environment, their history, etc. "You dance who you are" declares Nito
Garcia. You cannot make anyone into someone else. To do so would require
that person to give up their individuality, their heart, & their soul.
Imagine dancing tango with no heart nor soul. Tom, Melinda, Chas, Steve,
Linda, Larry, Mark, etc. can only dance the tango like & for Tom,
Melinda,
Chas,...etc., nothing more, nothing less. New York can only be New York,
Montreal...Montreal, Denver...Denver, Berlin...Berlin, San
Francisco...San Francisco, Los Angeles...well, we`ll always be "Tinsel
Town" (heh, heh).
We`ve all read here on this list many times of the wonderful milongueros
of Buenos Aires ( but very rarely of the milongueras). These are usually
gentlemen who have been dancing tango for many, many years (40/50
perhaps), who grew up listening & seeing tango all around them, of being
inspired by those before them. No, they did not invent the tango. It was
around some 50/60 years before they were born. What they have developed
is a beautiful tango of their own, for themselves. Do you think it was
developed over night? Do you think that their tango came from trying to
be someone else? I hardly think so. It is purely their own, of & for
themselves. The sad fact of life is that when they die their tango dies
with them. But not The Tango. Tango brought forth the true selves of
these Milongueros Viejos, their own authenticity. It is asking the same
from the rest of us worldwide now. We can look to these Milongueros who
are still here for inspiration.
Best regards always,
Mark Celaya
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 20 Aug 2000 to 21 Aug 2000 (#2000-226)
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