The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 19 Aug 2000
to 20 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:00:06 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 19 Aug 2000 to 20 Aug 2000 (#2000-225)
There are 10 messages totalling 679 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. authenticity and style
2. Drop the Cholulo
3. Authenticity (2)
4. Spanish 101 (viejo) (4)
5. Why are so many people angry?
6. Un milonguero viejo or UN viejo milonguero.
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 10:31:10 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: authenticity and style
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For some reason this discussion reminds me of watching Roberto Reis =
(sp?) at last year's Miami tango congress. I never see his name =
mentioned here. I assume most people know he partners the glorious =
Guillermina Quiroga (and used to be her husband) and that he has =
choreographed several famous shows.
In the classes at the congress Roberto and Guillermina taught patterns =
of steps, while paying thorough attention to our posture, balance, =
questions about lead and follow. In the evening demonstrations and =
final show their fantasy dancing was breathtaking. But what impressed =
me the most was to watch him on the dance floor. He danced milonguero =
style. His moves were always outwardly very simple, and very, very =
sloooow. It took him two complete songs to make one rotation around =
the (fairly large) dance floor. I could not take my eyes off him. The =
lucky ladies who danced with him had their eyes closed and were clearly =
in a tango trance. Heck, after watching them, I needed a cigarette! =
(and I don't smoke..... :)
Of all the classes offered that week and this year, I don't recall any =
that focused on what we have been discussing - but if I'm wrong, someone =
please set the record straight. It makes sense that the teachers teach =
what the students want (or think they need.)
This is NOT a criticism of the Miami tango congress, which was a great =
event, with fabulous teachers for a second year.
Melinda
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For some reason this discussion reminds =
me of=20
watching Roberto Reis (sp?) at last year's Miami tango congress. I =
never=20
see his name mentioned here. I assume most people know he partners =
the=20
glorious Guillermina Quiroga (and used to be her husband) and that he =
has=20
choreographed several famous shows.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the classes at the congress Roberto =
and=20
Guillermina taught patterns of steps, while paying thorough attention to =
our=20
posture, balance, questions about lead and follow. In the evening=20
demonstrations and final show their fantasy dancing was =
breathtaking. But=20
what impressed me the most was to watch him on the dance floor. He =
danced=20
milonguero style. His moves were always outwardly very simple, and =
very,=20
very sloooow. It took him two complete songs to make =
one=20
rotation around the (fairly large) dance floor. I could not take =
my eyes=20
off him. The lucky ladies who danced with him had their eyes =
closed and=20
were clearly in a tango trance. Heck, after watching them, I =
needed a=20
cigarette! (and I don't smoke..... :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of all the classes offered that week =
and this year,=20
I don't recall any that focused on what we have been discussing - but if =
I'm=20
wrong, someone please set the record straight. It makes sense that =
the=20
teachers teach what the students want (or think they need.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is NOT a criticism of the Miami =
tango=20
congress, which was a great event, with fabulous teachers for a second=20
year.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Melinda</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:21:37 -0400
From: Jorge Navarro <jorge @XMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Drop the Cholulo
---- Begin Original Message ----
MR. "Trenner Cholulo Patron" (aka Chas Gale, Denver, Colorado) writes:
"If you are trying to lay blame for the arguably pitiful skill level of tango in the United States at the feet of Daniel Trenner, that is thoroughly unfair."
He has a point. Danel and Maria of NYC are probably the most influential Tango teachers in the USA, and are, at the very least, just as responsible for the horrible level of U.S. dancers.
Love and peace to all,
Jorge.
=====================
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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:12:52 -0700
From: Neil Liveakos <neil_liveakos @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Authenticity
All,
In a few days, I'll be traveling to Denver in search
of a beautiful tall authentic milonguera.
While I'm out in the wild west, I thought I might have
the time do some sight-seeing in the beautiful
Colorado mountains and perhaps find an authentic
cowboy or cowgirl.
My questions... are there any authentic cowboys or
cowgirls left in Colorado? Will the authentic cowboys
all be gone within the next 10 years? How many summers
at how many dude ranches will I have to spend before I
can become an authentic cowboy? Will I have to go to
Montana to find an authentic cowboy? Should we expand
our definition of authenticity to embrace urban
cowboys? How many authentic cowboys are also authentic
milongueros? What would be a good test to determine
whether someone was an authentic cowboy/milonguero?
Would you say that an authentic cowboy/milonguero
would be perhaps... a gaucho? If you have strong
horsemanship skills, does that make you a more
authentic cowboy/milonguero?
This is my debut note on this list... but after
reading all this authenticity bullshit, I really
couldn't resist. ;-)
See you all in Denver.
By the way... all the real authentic Southern
Gentlemen are already "Gone With the Wind!"
Welcome to the year 2000.
Neil from Atlanta
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:08:28 -0500
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: Spanish 101 (viejo)
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In Spanish, the placement of the adjective "viejo" can change the meaning
of the phrase.
Mi viejo amigo = he has been my friend for a long time.
Mi amigo viejo = a friend who is old, getting up there in age.
So...
Un viejo milonguero = a milonguero with experience, he's been a milonguero
for a long time, even though he may not be a senior citizen.
Un milonguero viejo = a milonguero who is old, getting up there in age.
HTH.
Saludos,
Kate
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<html>
In Spanish, the placement of the adjective "viejo" can change
the meaning of the phrase. <br>
<br>
Mi <b><i>viejo</b> amigo</i> = he has been my friend for a long
time. <br>
Mi <i>amigo <b>viejo</b></i> = a friend who is old, getting up there in
age. <br>
<br>
So...<br>
Un <b><i>viejo</b> milonguero</i> = a milonguero with experience, he's
been a milonguero for a long time, even though he may not be a senior
citizen. <br>
Un <i>milonguero <b>viejo</b></i> = a milonguero who is old, getting up
there in age. <br>
<br>
<br>
HTH.<br>
<br>
Saludos,<br>
Kate<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</html>
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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 13:50:23 -0700
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Why are so many people angry?
Lately, I've read many message lamenting the sad state of dancing tango
in the United States and writers have mentioned how great the dancing is
in Argentina. The argentines DON'T have a monopoly on good dancing and
Americans DON'T have a monopoly on bad dancing!! I'd be amazed if more
than 20% of American tango dancers have gone to Argentina. Therefore, the
remaining 80% can't (or don't ) appreciate the comments about dancing in
Argentina.
Other writers complain about 1) lousy teachers (and cite them by name),
2) lousy leaders, and 3) lousy followers and feel the fault of bad
dancing is due to one of the above. I feel that ALL 3 contribute to the
situation.
Teachers: Do they teach what the students need (frame, axis, control of
weight) or what they want (flashy moves fit more for the stage than the
social dance floor? Do they teach how to move is more important than the
figure itself. (When I attended Tango Locura in Montreal last month, I
had a chance to talk to Diego diFalco. He told me that his 1.5 years of
tango was WALKING, AND ONLY WALKING!!) Clearly, there' s a message!!
Leaders: Do they concentrate on their partner or their desire to impress
other dancers with complicated figures? Do they concentrate on her steps
or their steps? Do they blame the woman for every mistake.
Followers: Do they anticipate or follow? Do they pay attention to the
partner or is their mind elsewhere?
I understand women's frustrations with poor dancing because they tell me.
IMHO, the main difference between men and women dancing tango is
Women dance with their hearts,
Men dance with their hormones.
I already wrote an article about this in the *La Voz del Tango* magazine
and I'm not going to reprint here but the point is men and women have
different desires from the dance. As a general rule, women want
connection and most (not all!!) men want complicated figures. (Whether
they can lead the figures or not is a different story.)
I have questions for women. If you go on a bad date (however you define
bad), do you go out with the man again? If you have a bad dance with a
man (whipped through ochos, swept like a broom through molinetes, etc.)
do you dance with him again. I'll bet the answer is "no" to the first
question and "yes" to the second question. Why? Some women feel "bad"
tango is better than "no" tango. If women start refusing to dance with
men they consider poor dancers, most men will get the idea they need to
improve.
I feel most (not all!) men are looking for feedback and would gladly
change if they had some feedback. When they don't get any feedback, the
default position is " I'm dancing OK and have no reason to change."
And now to set off the fireworks, if I haven't already. If dancing is as
bad as some say in the United States, it will only improve when the
women decide "no mas" (no more). I remember the old movie "Network" where
a TV news anchor said during a broadcast "I'm angry and I'm not going to
take it anymore. Open your windows and shout 'I'm angry and I'm not going
to take it anymore'" When women are so angry as to how they are treated
on the dance floor and do something about it, THAT'S WHEN DANCING WILL
GET BETTER!! Complaining to other women and writing messages to this list
is not going to improve the leading. Most men will change their dancing
if given a chance and get feedback. For the others.. well....
Go ahead and flame. I'm leaving for Spain on Wednesday and hope to dance
tango in Barcelona and Madrid. I hope my PC won't explode when I check
mail on my return.
Michael
Washington, DC
Hoping my dancing tango is better than my speaking Spanish.
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 14:54:22 -0300
From: Omar Facelli <ofacelli @ADINET.COM.UY>
Subject: Re: Spanish 101 (viejo)
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Kate,
Sorry the intrusion, haven't followed the previous thread, but just in case
and if of some use...
Watch out everybody, not that easy!
In some instances "viejo" also means "dad" like in:
Querido viejo =Dear dad
It can also be used this other way:
Che, viejo! = Hey, man!
So lunfardo and Spanish are quite dazzling linguistic tools huh? :o)
Kind regards to all naifas y malevos,
Omar
At 12:08 p.m. 19/08/00 -0500, you wrote:
>In Spanish, the placement of the adjective "viejo" can change the meaning
>of the phrase.
>
>Mi viejo amigo = he has been my friend for a long time.
>Mi amigo viejo = a friend who is old, getting up there in age.
>
>So...
>Un viejo milonguero = a milonguero with experience, he's been a milonguero
>for a long time, even though he may not be a senior citizen.
>Un milonguero viejo = a milonguero who is old, getting up there in age.
>
>
>HTH.
>
>Saludos,
>Kate
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Kate,<br>
<br>
Sorry the intrusion, haven't followed the previous thread, but just in
case and if of some use...<br>
<br>
Watch out everybody, not that easy!<br>
<br>
In some instances "viejo" also means "dad" like
in:<br>
Querido viejo =Dear dad<br>
<br>
It can also be used this other way:<br>
Che, viejo! = Hey, man!<br>
<br>
So lunfardo and Spanish are quite dazzling linguistic tools huh?
:o)<br>
<br>
Kind regards to all naifas y malevos,<br>
<br>
Omar<br>
<br>
At 12:08 p.m. 19/08/00 -0500, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>In Spanish, the placement of the adjective
"viejo" can change the meaning of the phrase. <br>
<br>
Mi <b><i>viejo</b> amigo</i> = he has been my friend for a long
time. <br>
Mi <i>amigo <b>viejo</i></b> = a friend who is old, getting up there in
age. <br>
<br>
So...<br>
Un <b><i>viejo</b> milonguero</i> = a milonguero with experience, he's
been a milonguero for a long time, even though he may not be a senior
citizen. <br>
Un <i>milonguero <b>viejo</i></b> = a milonguero who is old, getting up
there in age. <br>
<br>
<br>
HTH.<br>
<br>
Saludos,<br>
Kate</blockquote></html>
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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:52:16 -0500
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: Re: Spanish 101 (viejo)
>In some instances "viejo" also means "dad" like in:
>Querido viejo =Dear dad
>
>It can also be used this other way:
>Che, viejo! = Hey, man!
Yes, but that's using "viejo" as a noun and not as an adjective. No es lo
mismo, viste?
Saludos,
y un sobe para vos, yorugua,
Kate
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:30:53 -0600
From: Madhav Apte <mapte @POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Authenticity
Neil:
Good luck in your search.
As to your questions, I can offer some answers.
Here in Denver,
1. None of us have been dancing Argentine Tango for 40+ years.
2. None of us live in BsAs (obviously).
So due to one or both of the reasons above,
there are no "milongueros" here.
There are a couple of women who are from Buenos Aires.
However, because no compelling (er, I mean profusely discussed)
definition of a milonguera has been seen on this list,
I can't attest to their "authenticity" as a milonguera.
You can judge for yourself.
As for the cowboys/cowgirls.
As far as I know, very, very few of us actually ride horses,
or have ever ridden a horse. Very few of us have ever lived
the life of a cowboy, or herded cattle across vast prairie,
or done anything even remotely close.
However, we have, to varying number of years, lived in the
wild west. We have the feeling of the cowboy. It's part of our
culture. We hear cowboy/cowgirl songs every day. It has become,
if one may say so, ingrained in us. Plus, we all live here.
So we are all authentic cowboys and cowgirls.
As for you, you are a dude from the East. Maybe you actually
own horses and have ridden them all your life. Maybe you even
herded cattle. Maybe cattle ranching has been in your family
for the entirety of the long and illustrious American past: all 300
years or so of it. But you see, none of that really matters.
Because you don't live here. You don't breathe the cowboy/cowgirl
air. It' not part of your culture, you see. So no, you would
still be a dude.
Madhav
Cowboy, Denver.
- for the humor impaired :
The above was my attempt at humor, over the latest
"authenticity" and "milonguero" jag.
;-))) ;-))) ;-)))
ps: by the way Neil - when you are here dancing, don't
attempt to lead any voleos, sacadas, ganchos, etc; even if
you have the room and the ability to safely do so. Because
then you would lose the feeling and the connection and heart-to-heart.
This is because connection is strictly a matter of distance
between the two partners. If you create even a centimeter of distance
between you and your partner in trying
to do any of these, you would lose the feeling and the connection.
It just falls out in the gap between the two bodies. ;-))
After every Milonga the dance floor here is full of feelings and
connections
left on the floor by careless dancers and someone has to sweep it all
up. ;-))
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:40:40 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Spanish 101 (viejo)
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Kate,
In this case the word "viejo" is used as a noun in the first phrase and =
as and adjective in the second phrase, Cool eh? So: "viejo milonguero" =
=3D and old guy who is (or is trying to be) a milonguero. "milonguero =
viejo"=3D a milonguero of the old days (perhaps a redundancy, right =
Janis?).
Manuel=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: kata @pitton.com=20
In Spanish, the placement of the adjective "viejo" can change the =
meaning of the phrase.=20
Mi viejo amigo =3D he has been my friend for a long time. =20
Mi amigo viejo =3D a friend who is old, getting up there in age.=20
So...
Un viejo milonguero =3D a milonguero with experience, he's been a =
milonguero for a long time, even though he may not be a senior citizen. =
Un milonguero viejo =3D a milonguero who is old, getting up there in =
age.=20
HTH.
Saludos,
Kate
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Kate,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In this case the word "viejo" is used as a noun in =
the first=20
phrase and as and adjective in the second phrase, Cool eh? So: "viejo=20
milonguero" =3D and old guy who is (or is trying to be) a milonguero. =
"milonguero=20
viejo"=3D a milonguero of the old days (perhaps a redundancy, right =
Janis?).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Manuel</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:kata @pitton.com" =
title=3Dkata @PITTON.COM>kata @pitton.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>In Spanish, the placement of the adjective "viejo" =
can change=20
the meaning of the phrase. <BR><BR>Mi <B><I>viejo</B> amigo</I> =3D he =
has been=20
my friend for a long time. <BR>Mi <I>amigo <B>viejo</B></I> =3D =
a friend=20
who is old, getting up there in age. <BR><BR>So...<BR>Un =
<B><I>viejo</B>=20
milonguero</I> =3D a milonguero with experience, he's been a =
milonguero for a=20
long time, even though he may not be a senior citizen. <BR>Un=20
<I>milonguero <B>viejo</B></I> =3D a milonguero who is old, getting up =
there in=20
age.=20
=
<BR><BR><BR>HTH.<BR><BR>Saludos,<BR>Kate<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><=
BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 19:20:58 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Un milonguero viejo or UN viejo milonguero.
Kate wrote:
In Spanish, the placement of the adjective "viejo" can change the meaning of
the phrase.
Mi viejo amigo = he has been my friend for a long time.
Mi amigo viejo = a friend who is old, getting up there in age.
So...
Un viejo milonguero = a milonguero with experience, he's been a milonguero
for a long time, even though he may not be a senior citizen.
Un milonguero viejo = a milonguero who is old, getting up there in age.
Manuel Wrote:
Kate,
In this case the word "viejo" is used as a noun in the first phrase and as
and adjective in the second phrase, Cool eh? So: "viejo milonguero" = and
old guy who is (or is trying to be) a milonguero. "milonguero viejo"= a
milonguero of the old days (perhaps a redundancy, right Janis?).
***I think that Kate's explanation is clear and accurate according to the
Castilian language.
Un viejo milonguero is a person who, independently of his age, has been a
milonguero for a long time.
Un milonguero viejo is an old man, who has been going to the milongas for
"some" time, perhaps not to long or maybe yes for an extended period. Who
knows?
Manuel's interpretation on the other hand seems to be confusing, the
opposite?, not clear.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 19 Aug 2000 to 20 Aug 2000 (#2000-225)
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