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Digest from 18 Aug 2000
to 19 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 18 Aug 2000 to 19 Aug 2000 (#2000-224)
There are 12 messages totalling 868 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Authencity, Styles and Videos (4)
2. Tango, truths and videotape
3. Authencity (2)
4. Authencity and Styles
5. What is a Milonguero?
6. Will the real milonguero please stand up? (2)
7. tango story repeats itself
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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:06:08 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Authencity, Styles and Videos
>
> --Steve de Tejas
>
> Taken as whole, the currently available instructional videos seem to
> perpetuate the view that the dominant style of Argentine tango is
> salon in a relatively open embrace with fantasia elements, and that
> tango is largely danced through the execution of memorized figures
> that are based on the eight-count basic. There are a few exceptions--
> most notably the videos where Daniel Trenner is teaching. None of the
> videos attempt to convey an inner sense tango--that is moving to the
> music, engaging in rhythmic play, and developing a heart-to-heart
> connection with one's partner.
My recent lament has been the lack of "authenticity" in N.American
tango communities. It isn't very good politics to criticize, and yet
I have received many strongly supportive comments...primarily from
women, who didn't want to be public.
What is most lacking is precisely the items Steve mentions above:
Music, Rhythm, Heart-to-Heart Connection. It is my belief that these
are much more important elements of authentic tango, than skillful
execution of the 8CB and turns with sacadas. From what I have seen
most tango teachers are not much different from all those videos.
To present a positive recommendation, I would suggest that teachers
start all their classes excercizes in Music, Rhythm & Heart-to-Heart
connection. 8 weeks of that, and even a beginner could easily
navigate a crowded milonga interpreting the music and enjoying their
partners (to the greater pleasure of the women).
Steve reminded me in private that most people are really just doing
this for fun or the social/romantic possibilities. They don't know
and don't care if what they do is "authentic" or "competent". They
aren't likely to go to Argentina to measure their passion or
confidence in the milongas of Buenos Aires.
This might also be true for the many of the fanatics, teachers and
organizers, but usually they have other motivations as well, perhaps
getting REALLY good at tango, making money or creating community. I'm
not of the school where making money is wrong, but that could come
into conflict with creating community, or teaching "authentic" tango.
Tango is rich, complex and multi-dimensional. Even if their teacher
"only" shows them the 8CB most newcomers really feel a sense of
accomplishment just memorizing that little sequence. This is
adequately fun and even challenging for many people.
Many teachers approach advanced classes in the same way: show a
difficult step, and let the students struggle with it until the
master comes back with a key to make it work. Many of the guys are so
excited to finally accomplish it, and now they can go show it to
their partners in practice.
Continuing down this path for years, it is very easy to get into the
mind set that "I have learned SO much cool and difficult stuff, that
NOW I must really know tango." The more complex the better.
I enjoyed this kind of satisfaction for a while, but it was short
lived. I realized that getting more competent at the steps wasn't
helping me get better at tango. In particular the first half of my
first trip to Argentina took me into a spiral of disillusion. It is
also why my return to dancing tango in the US takes me into the
opposite spiral of disillusion.
That is why I started this thread, claiming that in general, N.
Americans don't dance at all like they do in Argentina, and not in a
good way.
While we may have "fun" dabbling in the dance of another culture, I
don't believe we should do so shallowly. I believe we owe it to
ourselves as well as the generation of milongueros (about to die off
in the next 10 years?), to really discover what the "real" tango is
all about.
Then we can go invent something else out of it. Tango Foxtrot?
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:57:28 -0400
From: Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Authencity, Styles and Videos
Talking of quality of tango dancing as gathered from tango-l discussions, I
think the main difference btw tango in US from tango in BsAs as well as in
Europe is that tango in US is talked, while elswhere it is danced and enjoyed.
The consequences of that fact are obvious and visible.
Best,
Matej
http://lancelot.bio.cornell.edu/matej/tango/
Tom Stermitz wrote:
> >
> > --Steve de Tejas
> >
> > Taken as whole, the currently available instructional videos seem to
> > perpetuate the view that the dominant style of Argentine tango is
> > salon in a relatively open embrace with fantasia elements, and that
> > tango is largely danced through the execution of memorized figures
> > that are based on the eight-count basic. There are a few exceptions--
> > most notably the videos where Daniel Trenner is teaching. None of the
> > videos attempt to convey an inner sense tango--that is moving to the
> > music, engaging in rhythmic play, and developing a heart-to-heart
> > connection with one's partner.
>
> My recent lament has been the lack of "authenticity" in N.American
> tango communities. It isn't very good politics to criticize, and yet
> I have received many strongly supportive comments...primarily from
> women, who didn't want to be public.
>
> What is most lacking is precisely the items Steve mentions above:
> Music, Rhythm, Heart-to-Heart Connection. It is my belief that these
> are much more important elements of authentic tango, than skillful
> execution of the 8CB and turns with sacadas. From what I have seen
> most tango teachers are not much different from all those videos.
>
> To present a positive recommendation, I would suggest that teachers
> start all their classes excercizes in Music, Rhythm & Heart-to-Heart
> connection. 8 weeks of that, and even a beginner could easily
> navigate a crowded milonga interpreting the music and enjoying their
> partners (to the greater pleasure of the women).
>
> Steve reminded me in private that most people are really just doing
> this for fun or the social/romantic possibilities. They don't know
> and don't care if what they do is "authentic" or "competent". They
> aren't likely to go to Argentina to measure their passion or
> confidence in the milongas of Buenos Aires.
>
> This might also be true for the many of the fanatics, teachers and
> organizers, but usually they have other motivations as well, perhaps
> getting REALLY good at tango, making money or creating community. I'm
> not of the school where making money is wrong, but that could come
> into conflict with creating community, or teaching "authentic" tango.
>
> Tango is rich, complex and multi-dimensional. Even if their teacher
> "only" shows them the 8CB most newcomers really feel a sense of
> accomplishment just memorizing that little sequence. This is
> adequately fun and even challenging for many people.
>
> Many teachers approach advanced classes in the same way: show a
> difficult step, and let the students struggle with it until the
> master comes back with a key to make it work. Many of the guys are so
> excited to finally accomplish it, and now they can go show it to
> their partners in practice.
>
> Continuing down this path for years, it is very easy to get into the
> mind set that "I have learned SO much cool and difficult stuff, that
> NOW I must really know tango." The more complex the better.
>
> I enjoyed this kind of satisfaction for a while, but it was short
> lived. I realized that getting more competent at the steps wasn't
> helping me get better at tango. In particular the first half of my
> first trip to Argentina took me into a spiral of disillusion. It is
> also why my return to dancing tango in the US takes me into the
> opposite spiral of disillusion.
>
> That is why I started this thread, claiming that in general, N.
> Americans don't dance at all like they do in Argentina, and not in a
> good way.
>
> While we may have "fun" dabbling in the dance of another culture, I
> don't believe we should do so shallowly. I believe we owe it to
> ourselves as well as the generation of milongueros (about to die off
> in the next 10 years?), to really discover what the "real" tango is
> all about.
>
> Then we can go invent something else out of it. Tango Foxtrot?
>
> Tom Stermitz
> stermitz @ragtime.org
> http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
> http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:47:53 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango, truths and videotape
Matej Oresic stated:
>
Talking of quality of tango dancing as gathered from tango-l discussions, I
think the main difference btw tango in US from tango in BsAs as well as in
Europe is that tango in US is talked, while elswhere it is danced and
enjoyed.
The consequences of that fact are obvious and visible.
<
As an amateur, and a pretty green one at that (not a professional, either
competent or amateurish), I have a somewhat different perspective. You will
notice that the bulk of the L postings is contributed by people who teach the
tango, mostly in North America. I believe Matej is one of them. I WOULD BE
astounded to find actual dancing on the L. I do not expect to find anything
but talk here, and tonight I am going to Fabienne's milonga, where I expect
to dance a good deal and do no tango talking at all. What I AM actually
astounded by is the proportion of strange talk, bordering sometimes on the
non-sensical or the juvenile, that got posted over the years on this L
concerning essential subjects, that is, those that need to be well thought
through and understood by anyone proposing to teach and guide others in the
art and the culture of the tango. I am NOT astounded when I see a wide eyed
devotee brimming with wonder and enthusiasm come up with something a little
peculiar, or repeat some worn out piece of mythology. This is in the nature
of things. A little far-side chat of that ilk can be entertaining, sometimes
even surprisingly useful; and as to myths, we know that it is not wide eyed
new inductees that make them up.
For well over a year I have read from the L, and actually profited from it,
without even a thought of joining. Now I have written a few times, with a
thought in mind going something like this. I cannot help fix much of
anything, at least not now, but perhaps I can contribute a bit of talk. It is
not as if I believed that any opinion changes that I might undergo or cause
in others would magically make tango learning in my venue or others
significantly better. Fixing talk, so to speak, does not fix much of anything
else. But it cannot do any harm, so I might as well give it a try.
Cheers.
PS - In case it was missed, I am being coy.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:15:26 -0700
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20 @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Authencity
--- Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU> wrote:
> Talking of quality of tango dancing as gathered
> from tango-l discussions, I
> think the main difference btw tango in US from tango
> in BsAs as well as in
> Europe is that tango in US is talked, while elswhere
> it is danced and enjoyed.
> The consequences of that fact are obvious and
> visible.
There is nothing wrong with talking, as long as it is
about "heart-to-heart tango", right? Or maybe there is
no such thing at all, and its intellectual moorings
are deficient.
Let's talk, friends. Let's discuss the authenticity of
the U.S. Tango. Let's evaluate the relative influence
of such teachers as Trenner, Danel and Maria, Orlando
Paiva, and others. What's wrong with that? What's
wrong with self-promotion? Have you read my new book
"From Swing to Tango and back in 60 nanoseconds"? It
will soon be available on Amazon.com. Don't you
realize that it takes a "tock-tick-tock" rhythm to be
a "real" tango teacher? If you display no "passion",
you are disqualified! What is a good test for a "true"
U.S. tanguero? Who else is qualified to be called a
"cholulo"?
So many questions, so many topics. That's what Tango-L
is for! My only complain is that not enough women
express their opininons here. Is it because that they
prefer dancing Tango to talking about it?
Seriously, now. The tone of the following remarks is
necessarily forceful, but it is heavily muted in
comparison to the distortion and misrepresentation of
the teaching methodolgy of Naveira and Salas
phenomenon that is being perpetuated by Mr. Stermitz.
It is a well known tactic that when people are
confronted with overwhelming evidence that they are
wrong, their only recourse is to deflect the main
issues by focusing on tangential issues. The only real
issue here is that there are different teaching
methodologies in Tango. Mr. Stermitz recent postings
are nothing else but poorly disguised attacks on the
teachings of Naveira, Salas, and "Chicho" Frumboli.
Whether or not he is doing this for his mentors,
Trenner or Muller, is not really important. What's
important is that he comes clean and admits the truth.
Yours truly,
El Duke.
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:38:01 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Authencity, Styles and Videos
I agree with almost all of what Tom wrote. I understand his disillusion, as
I have experienced it also. Although I have been passionately devoted to
Argentine tango for three and a half years, I also got so disappointed with
the level of dance that I have not danced at all in months. It is too
frustrating to see the same dancers, attending the same classes and
milongas, and the dancing never seems to change. There are a few men I love
to dance with. Men whose dancing may be "simple" or complex, but whose
dancing is always an emotional experience. But for the rest, I might as
well be dancing lindy (which I also enjoy and is a damn sight easier to get
good at.......)
I don't want to be pushed around the dance floor. I don't want to be kicked
or kick someone else because my partner was not paying attention. I don't
want the man to tell me what I should have done because his lead is not good
enough to communicate it. I don't want to have a conversation while dancing
tango! The DANCE is the conversation.....I don't want to be rushed through
the subtle, sweeter music. I want to dance tango that feels like tango,
whether it's salon style or milonguero, danced in the states or overseas...
If I can't have that, I'd rather do something else. And by the way, I'm
SURE the men would have just as much to say about the ladies not being
responsive, losing their balance, etc etc. Clearly, these comments are
entirely personal, based on my own experiences.
Where I do disagree with Tom is in his final comments:
Original Message -----
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
>
> While we may have "fun" dabbling in the dance of another culture, I
> don't believe we should do so shallowly. I believe we owe it to
> ourselves as well as the generation of milongueros (about to die off
> in the next 10 years?), to really discover what the "real" tango is
> all about.
I think this is silly. To suggest that dancers in the US (or anywhere not
BsAs) have a responsibility to nurture and promote the purity of another
culture's artistic expression is real chauvenism. I may wish local dancers
took the learning process more seriously, but to imagine that they or we
have a responsibility to not "dabble" is absurd. People will always bring
differing levels of commitment to any endeavour. The teachers may be
authentic (whatever that means) and gifted, but the students will always
choose how far they go. I've been told that tango is enjoying a great surge
of interest among teenaged Argentinians (just as swing classes are jammed at
US colleges). I don't think it's up to us in the US to shoulder any
responsibility for their patrimony - and I think it's a little insulting to
suggest it is. (No offense please Tom!)
Melinda
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 00:08:04 +0200
From: andy Ungureanu <Andy.Ungureanu @T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Authencity, Styles and Videos
Matej Oresic schrieb:
>
> Talking of quality of tango dancing as gathered from tango-l discussions, I
> think the main difference btw tango in US from tango in BsAs as well as in
> Europe is that tango in US is talked, while elswhere it is danced and enjoyed.
> The consequences of that fact are obvious and visible.
>
Well, talking about tango is the purpose of the list, isn t it? Talking
is a main ability of human beeings. So what is the problem?
The problem is that knowing tango as a viewer and talking about tango
does not automaticaly lead to the ability of dancing tango. Beeing a
good opera critic is not the same as beeing an opera singer. Nobody
would even expect it (in the case of the opera).
The aim is to understand what other people think, to get some new ideas,
and then maybe try something out.
Another thread were instructional videos. (this is, as usual my personal
opinion)
somebody sugested the level in Europe may be better. I don t know if
this is true, since I only know a little part of the US. But I know
definitely, that in Europe instructional videos are almost (only almost)
unknown. I doubt there is a large use of them in Argentina.
Instructional videos are interesting for those who already know, or for
those who want to remember, or in order to learn teaching methods, but
not for learning tango. Used as exclusive source of learning, they
produce something looking like tango, but not real dancing.
Happy (danced) tangos
Andy
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 16:23:41 -0600
From: "Bauer, Russell" <russell_bauer @NREL.GOV>
Subject: Re: Authencity
Dear Larry Duke,
I don't understand what you are saying here. How is Mr. Stermitz distorting
and misrepresenting the teaching methodology of Naveira and Salas
phenomenon? What is he wrong about and where is the overwhelming evidence?
Also, I don't understand your statement about poorly disguised attacks.
Tom's postings stated very clearly what his complaints are.
I enjoy reading the discussion on this list on issues like this and like
reading different view points. Please, I would like you to explain your
position more clearly and support it with some substance.
Russell Bauer
Larry Duke wrote:
>Seriously, now. The tone of the following remarks is
>necessarily forceful, but it is heavily muted in
>comparison to the distortion and misrepresentation of
>the teaching methodolgy of Naveira and Salas
>phenomenon that is being perpetuated by Mr. Stermitz.
>It is a well known tactic that when people are
>confronted with overwhelming evidence that they are
>wrong, their only recourse is to deflect the main
>issues by focusing on tangential issues. The only real
>issue here is that there are different teaching
>methodologies in Tango. Mr. Stermitz recent postings
>are nothing else but poorly disguised attacks on the
>teachings of Naveira, Salas, and "Chicho" Frumboli.
>Whether or not he is doing this for his mentors,
>Trenner or Muller, is not really important. What's
>important is that he comes clean and admits the truth.
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:46:19 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Authencity and Styles
I too find it unfortunate that Tom chose to add the remarks that we
should preserve authentic dancing out of an obligation to the older
milongueros. They already have the experience of dancing tango which
should be enough.
Why might we aspire to dance "authentically"?
Dancing authentically is a richer experience that allows us to reach
an inner tango--that is a tango that consists of moving to the music,
engaging in rhythmic play, and developing a heart-to-heart connection
with our partner, and spontaneously creating with one's partner as the
dance floor permits.
If some individuals want to just play at tango that should be okay
too, just don't let them be the couple in front of me on the dance
floor who insists on starting every memorized figure they execute with
a giant backward step. ;-)
In an attempt to put this discussion into perspective, I have combined
some of the comments, including a few sent to me privately, to produce
the short essay below.
--Steve de Tejas
Learning to Dance Argentine Tango Outside Its Cultural Milieu
Many of us who dance Argentine tango believe it is best understood in
its original cultural milieu. Many dancers who approach Argentine
tango have no experience with the culture, however, and begin to learn
tango in a cultural environment that is completely alien to the dance.
That places many aspiring tango dancers at a tremendous disadvantage
in learning to dance tango with any degree of authenticity--that is in
a manner that would be accepted in Buenos Aires.
In Buenos Aires, tango is so ingrained in the culture that even
someone who doesn't like tango knows a lot about it. Many portenos
grow up with an inner sense of tango--hearing the music on a daily
basis, knowing the rhythm of the music, and implicitly understanding
that the essential elements of the dance are improvisation, moving to
the music, engaging in rhythmic play, and developing a heart-to-heart
connection with one's partner. Because these portenos come to the
tango with an implicit knowledge of its essential elements, learning
the steps and figures can be sufficient for them to develop the
ability to dance tango authentically.
Those of us who learn outside this frame of reference are dependent
upon our instructors to a degree that is unfathomable to most
Argentines, including those Argentines who regularly teach tango to
foreigners. Taken outside its original context, most available
instruction conveys the view that the dominant style of Argentine
tango is salon in a relatively open embrace, perhaps with a few
fantasia elements, and that tango is largely danced through the
execution of memorized figures that are based on the eight-count
basic. Of all the available instructional videos, only a few try to
convey the improvisational nature of the dance. None of the videos
and few instructors attempt to convey an inner sense tango--that is,
moving to the music, engaging in rhythmic play, and developing a
heart-to-heart connection with one's partner.
For many of us then, finding our way to the inner tango is largely a
personal challenge. Trips to milongas in Buenos Aires can be helpful,
as can be working with an instructor who is capable of bridging
aspects of the cultural gap that separates us from authenticity.
Building a collection of tango music for social dancing and listening
to it regularly and learning to move it without a partner can also be
helpful. Perhaps the greatest help, however, is simply understanding
that because our life and dance experiences have been largely outside
Buenos Aires (or other cities where tango is preeminent), elements can
be missing in our dancing, as well as the instruction we are
receiving.
-fin-
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:54:26 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: What is a Milonguero?
So far Janis Kenyon is the only one who has been specific about what
they mean by "milonguero." (Tom Stermitz has been a little specific
about "milonguera." But let's stick to the male article & come
back to women later - not because they are less important, but for the
very opposite reason: they deserve a discussion all their own.)
Everyone else in TANGO-L has just assumed everyone knows what they
mean - AND agrees with it - but this most recent round of discussion
has shown that this is most definitely untrue. So let's be specific.
At least, MORE specific.
_______________________________________________________
First, let's settle on a minimum. Sergio Suppa's definition makes
sense to me. In my own words, a milonguero is someone dedicated to
tango. It's a major part of their lives; every (normal) week they
spend several hours with tango.
With just this bare-minimum definition we're already beginning to edge
into deep water, because broad definitions lump very different people
together.
What about the man who goes to milongas several times a week, but only
idly listens to the music & never dances? I see a fair amount of this
just in L.A. milongas: people who sit & eat & drink & socialize but
obviously ignore the music - talking over it, ignoring orchestras &
singers, never watching a dancer unless she's sexy. More expatriate
Argentines do this at milongas outside Argentina. (Most people born in
America prefer other venues to socialize.) To many of these people
tango music is like Muzak: perhaps a comforting reminder of home, but
meaning no more than that. Are these milongueros? I would say NO. What
would you say?
What about the man who doesn't dance, but to whom the music is as
necessary as air? Who knows the orchestra leaders, composers,
musicians & bands, the lyrics, can sing the songs (though often
badly)? Are these milongueros? What about other people that love tango
music but aren't as expert? Are these milongueros?
Maybe, but for simplicity's sake I'll just define milongueros as
dancers. If that's not acceptable, I'll just stick in a defining
adjective like DANCING milongueros.
_______________________________________________________
Notice one corollary to this minimal definition - it says nothing
about how good a dancer this man is.
Which makes sense to me. I know an Argentine who was a fairly
well-known milonguero but is crippled with arthritis. He can dance for
only a little while without great pain, & even then dances badly. Is
he no longer a milonguero? I think not. Being a milonguero is a
matter of the heart, not of the body.
What about someone who is an absolutely terrific tango dancer? Someone
who is a professional dancer or Olympic-level tennis player or ice
skater with fantastic physical abilities. A natural athlete who picks
up in a few weeks or even days every one of the outward attributes of
the tango dancer, including all the subtle little things that the
average person takes years or decades to achieve. Who is a genius with
music, has the soul of a poet, perfectly sensitive to women & their
care on the dance floor. A veritable god - who toys with tango for a
few weeks or months & then abandons it totally forever. Is he a
milonguero?
I'd say NO, at least not by this definition. And you may think this
example is over the top, but I've seen lesser but similar examples a
number of times over the years. And I bet you have, too. Tango just
doesn't appeal to some people.
To repeat: Being a milonguero is a matter of the heart, not of the
body.
And, finally, this definition says nothing about the nationality of
the milonguero. Argentines aren't the only ones who love tango. People
the world over have come to love it - more, to need it to satisfy
something in them that nothing else can. To exclude them from the
definition of "milonguero" would be the rankest bigotry.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:21:17 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Will the real milonguero please stand up?
Manuel wrote:
>These hints to recognize the "milonguero" are pretty good in a way. While
it
> is true that the milonguero will probably give the right answers, this
test
>requires that the test giver have certain skills and knowledge:
>1. you must speak and understand Spanish very fluently and with knowledge
of
>the particular dialect used by milongueros.
>2. you must know the correct answers to the questions, otherwise how will
>you know if you are being fed a line of bull?
Ladies, I am by no means fluent in Spanish, but I haven't had a problem
being understood when I ask a simple question, such as, "que tango es? que
orquesta?"
I ask the question to learn about tango, not to test his knowledge. Who
better to ask that an expert? Who is going to try to bluff his way through
such questioning? Anyone knows you can ask the DJ after the tanda. Mario,
Federico, Daniel and others who mix the music are always happy to oblige.
So don't feel that you need to become an expert in tango first. It will
take a lifetime.
I don't know the dialect of milongueros to which Manuel is referring. If
you don't understand what someone has said, just ask them to speak slowly.
>Of course, if the inquisitor has the above qualifications, she probably
>knows the milongueros personally and has no need to administer the test ;-)
I would like to hear from all the women on the list who have danced with a
milonguero as defined by Marisa Galindo.
>Oh, by the way, I've heard many women wax poetic about the ecstasy they
>experience by dancing with a wide variety of partners, some of these
>"ecstasy inducing dancers" were old milongueros but many were young,
>attractive, skilled dancers.
We can all enjoy dancing with a variety of partners, young or mature.
Manuel will never understand the difference because he will never dance with
a milonguero, for obvious reasons.
>Funny thing, in Bs As the young, pretty
>tangueras dance principally with the young, handsome milongueros ;-)
IMHO, there are young dancers in the milongas, but no young milongueros.
On a recent Saturday night, I saw a young girl about 15, who accompanies her
grandmother regularly, dance with a milonguero, Antonio who is 64. There
was no one in the milonga within 40 years of her age, except her younger
brother. He's about 6.
>A word of advise: be aware that there are "viejos milongueros" and
>"milongueros viejos". There is a world of difference between them. I
>seriously doubt that the average American woman visiting Bs As for the
first
>or even second or third time alone has the knowledge and savvy to
>distinguish between them.
I would like to ask Manuel to explain what he means by "viejos milongueros"
and milongueros viejos".
For years I thought I was dancing with milongueros. I was given the
impression through conversation and postings to the list that the men who to
dance everyday are "milongueros." But since I met a milonguero for the
first time ten months ago, I now understand the difference. I want to pass
along this information via the list. I have learned that milongueros do not
go every day and night to the milongas. Tango is not a routine for them.
They go when they need to dance. They go to dance the feeling.
Pichi
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 00:52:08 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: tango story repeats itself
...The argument should be about whether one is dancing within the
parameters of good tango or not. For example: are both partners on their
own
axis? Can they maintain their own balance thoughout the dance and not
disturb their partner's? Can the man lead (wordlessly, thank you) any
woman
who knows how to follow, and can the woman follow any man who knows how
to
lead? Does the man lead with his torso, or does he push the woman around
with his hands and poke his fingers in her spine? Does the woman WAIT
for
each lead before making a movement, or does she "baila sola"? Does she
know
NEVER to change her weight arbitrarily? (I'm not talking about a
momentary
traspie-type of weight change.) Does the man dance with an awareness of
what's going on around him on the floor, and does he choose his
movements
according to the available space, the speed at which other couples are
dancing, etc.? Do both the man and woman dance TO THE MUSIC?
Linda's latest posting "hit the nail on its head" Tango story repeats
itself in every city! Yes, to save face (or to make a buck) people will
do anything! Some teachers tell their students quite blantly, "I am the
best tango dancer in the world!", having no idea what lead is. Some say,
"Milonguero? This is old stuff! Nobody dances this way anymore!" Others
wave their Argentinian pasports to show their tango authenticity,
although learned how to tango (not dance tango, plese note) in the USA;
other yet claims his rite to chreographing tango, but has no idea that
movement and music become one, if it is a dance, and so on...
How true it is that MUSIC and couple's movement with the MUSIC makes
tango so special, but often musicality is not mentioned by teachers in
class...sad but true! Students do not know the difference. They are
taught steps and combinations, that is what they learn! But those few
who do not give up, sooner or later begin to understand what tango
really is and begin looking for answers in "how", as opposed to "how
many". At this point a trip to Buenos Aires (given these people attend
milongas independently) proves to be very helpful.
Eugenia
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 01:20:43 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Will the real milonguero please stand up?
Love that subject line!! I like eminem and that little line is very catchy!
Janis has no problems understanding or being understood, but I would venture
to say that the vast majority of non-Spanish (make that lunfardo) speakers
will never quite understand the nuances of conversation or make themselves
understood by the non-English speaking Argentinians.
I am totally fluent in Spanish and have a pretty good handle of many
colloquial expressions of the Porteqos. I've learned a good bit of Lunfardo
talking for hours with many travelling teachers in the USA and also in my
trips to Bs As. My experience is that even with my advantage in language I
still must pay attention and ask questions when holding animated
conversations with Porteqos in Spanish. I've seen first hand the
difficulties people have communicating across language barriers. Just
remeber that hilarious posting the other day which was nothing but a direct
translation of a totally sensible narrative in colloquial Spanish!
Obviously, I'll never dance tango with a milonguero as neither the
milonguero or I have any interest in such a thing, no Pichi, do not cry for
me. I'm not missing anything that I have any interest in by not dancing with
a milonguero. I prefer to dance with women, preferably women who can dance
tango to the music and with sufficient skill to follow my leads. I am well
sought after as a tango dancer by many women so my tango live is quite
fulfilling, thank you.
For those of you who don't understand my statement about "viejos
milongueros" and "milongueros viejos", I 'll attempt to clarify. I was
talking a few days ago with a well known travelling instructor and the
subject came up about the tango scene in Bs As, the customs, problems, etc.
One of the statements that this man made was that he never danced at the
milongas until almost the end because "the floors are too crowded and there
are too many bad dancers". He laughingly spoke about all the old guys who
never knew tango before and just learned to dance it in the last 5 or so
years calling themselves "milongueros" and generally spouting off a line of
bull to whoever they could. These are the "viejos milongueros". He also said
that these jokers were prone to elbowing and pushing other dancers on the
floor by playing on their chronological age! The others who are the real
article, he called the "milongueros viejos".The terms were coined during our
conversation and seemed really quite clear and descriptive and a neat play
with words too (here is where a good command of Spanish comes in handy). I
apologize to the list for assuming that it would be easy to understand.
Anyway, Janis denies the "milonguero" title to anyone over a certain age, I
guess. Frankly, I don't care who Janis calls milongueros and who she does
not call milongueros. My definition of milonguero is one who hangs out at
the milongas. In the not so distant past this was a pejorative term. It has
now developed some sort of cache. There is another thing that is curious,
why is it said that young dancers are not good or pleasant to dance with?
I've heard different from many women, American as well as Argentinian or of
other nationalities. There is absolutely no reason why a young man cannot
dance well, with passion, musicality and heart to heart connection. I've
watched and admired many young guys who dance like that and I have spoken
with the women they danced with. To the last one the women were ecstatic
about their dances. I'm not a young guy anymore so my defense is not about
me but just about common sense.
For me, Tango is definitely about heart to heart connection, musicality and
passion. I've always felt this way, even way back ,when as a young kid I
listened to tango in the radio and sang along with the music. That was many
years ago before I even thought of dancing tango. This is not new to me and
I'm surprised to hear such heated arguments and accusations about people who
are not "authentic" in some mysterious way. To me this is totally
ridiculous. How can anybody who did not grow up with tango, it's culture,
it's language and it's message call themselves "authentic tango anythings"?
Who handed out the credentials and qualifications to people from faraway
places and foreign cultures to set them up as arbiters of authenticity? I
have news for some of them. Dancing tango for a few years and visiting Bs As
a few times does not make one an authentic tango master.
I feel sorry for all these women who cannot find good tango dancers right
here in the USA. I also feel sorry for all the unhappy people over the sad
state of tango in the USA. Neither is likely to ever find solace, happiness
or fulfillment in their tango because the tango feeling comes from inside
and not from external sources. I would invite all these unfulfilled ladies
to come to Atlanta and dance with our fine dancers both young and older. I
would suggest they come to our milongas where they can see people dancing
tango with all of their feelings and musicality. I'm sure that Atlanta is
not unique. I'm sure that good tango is available all over the USA and much
of the world. I would suggest that you all open your hearts to the tango and
to the people who are loving and enjoying tango all around you.
I want to extend my best wishes to all those people out there who are
working hard to organize tango groups everywhere and who are teaching all
they know to others. They are doing what is right and good for Argentine
tango. I think these people deserve better than to be called incompetent
fakes and worse. Besides a few *full time* teachers and organizers, most
tango instructors and organizers are doing it for the love of tango and the
vast majority, like me, hold full time jobs in our professions to help
support our "tango habits" :-)
Oh yeah, if anybody is really sick and tired of the tango in the USA, I
suggest a long visit in Bs As or just find another diversion. Tango will get
much better, much faster without the bitching, bellyaching, name calling and
posturing. Do your best and help to improve things. "it's better to light a
candle that to curse the darkness"
Cheers,
Manuel
End of TANGO-L Digest - 18 Aug 2000 to 19 Aug 2000 (#2000-224)
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