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Digest from 17 Aug 2000
to 18 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 17 Aug 2000 to 18 Aug 2000 (#2000-223)
There are 7 messages totalling 503 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Are you dancing with a milonguero? A test (2)
2. Drop the Cholulo
3. Are you dancing with a milonguero?
4. Helpful Summary
5. Authencity, Styles and Videos
6. Who's to say
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:54:30 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Are you dancing with a milonguero? A test
Ladies of the List,
Here's a simple test to know if you are dancing with a milonguero in Buenos
Aires. Between tangos, ask a few simple questions: what orchestra is
playing? who is singing? what tango is this? or what year was this
recorded? This may seem like a game of 20 questions. But a milonguero will
probably offer all the information after the first question because he knows
the answers. Since you are a foreigner asking the questions, he will be
happy to provide the information. After the first question, he may respond:
"The orquesta is Anibal Troilo with Francisco Fiorentino singing Yo Soy El
Tango recorded in 1941." Then he'll probably start singing because he knows
the lyrics.
On another occasion you might ask him where is went to dance tango in the
50s. You will learn the names of his favorite milongas. This confirms
it--you are dancing with a milonguero. Consider yourself fortunate to be
dancing with one of a vanishing breed.
Don't expect him to ask you for another tanda the same evening. Milongueros
don't dance every tanda and don't dance with the same woman. They are very
selective as to when and with whom they dance. They want to dance well, so
you must have proved yourself on the dance floor for them. They don't mind
sitting all night at a milonga, talking with friends and enjoying the music.
They've danced for so many years, they don't have to dance at all.
Milongueros don't like it when the DJ mixes music of the tanda from
different eras, such as D'Arienzo of the 40s with a later period. They
complain when this happens.
Milongueros want to hear and dance to the music of the 1940s. Their
favorite orchestras are Juan D'Arienzo, Anibal Troilo, and Carlos DiSarli.
And ladies, remember to ask him, "who is your favorite orchestra?"
As Marisa Galindo wrote in her homage to the milongueros:
They know how to follow the line of dance, have a great sense of the music,
know each orchestra, its singers and sometimes sing in a very low voice in
your ear; with little choreographic material, they effect a strong exchange
of emotion and pleasure that sometimes becomes ecstacy, and then, from the
feminine perspective, allows you to close your eyes and totally surrender;
they lead very gently and precisely, using the whole body; they dance
self-centered, dedicated to you and him, not to the public; they dance
protecting the woman; they exhibit respect for the group, avoiding dangerous
figures; and they have a sense of the music, variations of rhythm and pauses
in synchronization with the music, the woman and other dancers.
Pichi
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:20:50 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Are you dancing with a milonguero? A test
These hints to recognize the "milonguero" are pretty good in a way. While it
is true that the milonguero will probably give the right answers, this test
requires that the test giver have certain skills and knowledge:
1. you must speak and understand Spanish very fluently and with knowledge of
the particular dialect used by milongueros.
2. you must know the correct answers to the questions, otherwise how will
you know if you are being fed a line of bull?
Of course, if the inquisitor has the above qualifications, she probably
knows the milongueros personally and has no need to administer the test ;-)
Oh, by the way, I've heard many women wax poetic about the ecstasy they
experience by dancing with a wide variety of partners, some of these
"ecstasy inducing dancers" were old milongueros but many were young,
attractive, skilled dancers. Funny thing, in Bs As the young, pretty
tangueras dance principally with the young, handsome milongueros ;-)
A word of advise: be aware that there are "viejos milongueros" and
"milongueros viejos". There is a world of difference between them. I
seriously doubt that the average American woman visiting Bs As for the first
or even second or third time alone has the knowledge and savvy to
distinguish between them.
Peace,
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
> Ladies of the List,
>
> Here's a simple test to know if you are dancing with a milonguero in
Buenos
> Aires. Between tangos, ask a few simple questions: what orchestra is
> playing? who is singing? what tango is this? or what year was this
> recorded?
Snip
> On another occasion you might ask him where is went to dance tango in the
> 50s. You will learn the names of his favorite milongas. This confirms
> it--you are dancing with a milonguero. Consider yourself fortunate to be
> dancing with one of a vanishing breed.
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:56:30 -0600
From: Chas Gale <Chuck.Gale @IHSENERGY.COM>
Subject: Drop the Cholulo
---Silvia wrote in part---
***Isn't it a fact that the most influential Tango teacher in the United States
for the past 10 years has been Daniel Trenner? At the very least, he has been
one of the few most influential teachers, especially in Colorado. I find it
surprising that all these complains about the poor quality of Tango in the USA
are coming from the Trenner Cholulo Patron (or is it Suzana Miller now).***
What's your point? If you have a complaint, spit it out. MOST of us are adults
here and can handle hearing anything you have to say. If you are trying to lay
blame for the arguably pitiful skill level of tango in the United States at the
feet of Daniel Trenner, that is thoroughly unfair. Trenner teaches the primary
feature of "authentic" AT; improvisation through elements. I've seen him teach
patterns only in "advanced" classes. Daniel is guilty of virtual none of the
things that are "wrong" with tango in the U.S.
If on the other hand, you are saying that Daniel Trenner has had a greater
influence than any other individual on the popularity and growth of Argentine
Tango in North America, then I would have to agree.
---Silvia also wrote---
***Maybe some of the teachers are in need of lessons themselves.***
How true. We all know there are wonderful dancers who are terrible teachers, and
vise versa. I believe Trenner's greatest strength is teaching beginners. He has
the enviable ability to all but totally remove the intimidation factor. He's an
excellent public speaker. He makes it fun and keeps people coming back better
than anyone else I know of. Any teacher who wants to learn to teach would be
hard pressed to find a better teacher to teach them to teach than Daniel
Trenner.
But that's just my opinion and it's like my mamma use to say, "Opinions are like
ass holes; everybodies got one and they all stink". Mom's eloquence is
unsurpassed.
And btw, what's a Cholulo?
Is it an STD?
I think you can get an ointment to clear that up.
Is that something the Taco Bell dog talks about?
That's MR. "Trenner Cholulo Patron" to you!
Chas Gale, Denver, Colorado
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:10:01 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay @FOXINTERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Are you dancing with a milonguero?
I would like to add a note about the milongueros in Buenos Aires:
When you dance with him, you know his concentration is not on
himself - his footwork, his posture, his look, his audience, the
pattern he's executing and whether he is completing it correctly. His
focus is on his partner. He is designing a dance for her. Her
pleasure, comfort and safety are paramount. He makes her feel like the
most beautiful woman in the world.
How can a woman not long for that experience again?
I have rarely had that experience outside of Bs. As. dancing tango,
although I have had it dancing other dances. Too rarely, though. Can
anyone echo my sentiments? If so, can you explain it?
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Janis Kenyon
> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:55 AM
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Are you dancing with a milonguero? A test
>
>
> Ladies of the List,
>
> Here's a simple test to know if you are dancing with a
> milonguero in Buenos
> Aires. Between tangos, ask a few simple questions: what
> orchestra is
> playing? who is singing? what tango is this? or what
> year was this
> recorded? This may seem like a game of 20 questions. But
> a milonguero will
> probably offer all the information after the first question
> because he knows
> the answers. Since you are a foreigner asking the
> questions, he will be
> happy to provide the information. After the first
> question, he may respond:
> "The orquesta is Anibal Troilo with Francisco Fiorentino
> singing Yo Soy El
> Tango recorded in 1941." Then he'll probably start singing
> because he knows
> the lyrics.
>
> On another occasion you might ask him where is went to
> dance tango in the
> 50s. You will learn the names of his favorite milongas.
> This confirms
> it--you are dancing with a milonguero. Consider yourself
> fortunate to be
> dancing with one of a vanishing breed.
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:17:19 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Helpful Summary
For all those who don't want to wade through the recent huge
correspondence on "authenticity" & related issues, here is a summary
of the main points.
_______________________________________________________
Every dancer in Argentina has the skill of Nuryev & the soul of
Shakespeare. Argentina is Heaven; if you never go you are condemned to
Dancers' Hell.
Except - some Argentine dancers, despite long & distinguished careers
& histories, are really fake tango dancers, evil angels not yet cast
out by the tango gods. Who are they? Don't bother to try to figure
this out. There are those on & off TANGO-L who will relieve you of the
tiresome necessity of making up your own mind. THEY will tell you.
Everyone outside Argentina, including you, are really shitty dancers,
& every teacher is full of crap & incompetent - except for a few
people. Again, don't bother to try to figure who they are. The
priestesses & priests of tango among us will tell you who they are.
Tango is going downhill everywhere (or is already at the bottom) but
Argentina. The reason is that more & more people are doing it. These
spoilers just want to have a good time & they are taking classes with
unqualified teachers. So what if some of these teachers helped you
learn something that seemed important, maybe some tiny little thing
that nevertheless seemed big to you? So what if you're dancing more &
having lots of fun? You're living in a fool's Paradise & are - real
soon now - going to really suffer the fires of Hell.
_______________________________________________________
There now, since this is all cleared, don't you feel so much better?
Oh, & Real Soon Now, I'll summarize some of the other blazing issues
presented in this forum. Hmm, maybe I should do ....
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:27:20 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Authencity, Styles and Videos
After reading the contributions about authencity and style that Tom
Stermitz, Sergio Suppa, Linda Valentino and others made, I began
thinking about the currently available instructional videos, then I
began thinking about how Susan and I teach beginners.
Taken as whole, the currently available instructional videos seem to
perpetuate the view that the dominant style of Argentine tango is
salon in a relatively open embrace with fantasia elements, and that
tango is largely danced through the execution of memorized figures
that are based on the eight-count basic. There are a few exceptions--
most notably the videos where Daniel Trenner is teaching. None of the
videos attempt to convey an inner sense tango--that is moving to the
music, engaging in rhythmic play, and developing a heart-to-heart
connection with one's partner.
These observations have given me greater doubts about the value of
beginners learning from videos. None of the beginning videos cover
milonguero-style tango or have much to say about musicality. All but
two or three teach tango as series of memorized figures starting with
the eight-count basic. All of the videos are informative, but they are
not a substitute for quality local teachers. Videos might supplement
good local instruction.
These remarks are not to recant in any way my previous ratings or
reviews of instructional videos. Rather they are to put the role of
instructional videos into perspective.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:02:59 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Who's to say
Timothy "TimmyTango" Pogros asks pointedly:
>
Who is really to say what is and what isn't Authentic Argentine Tango.
<
I am a cultural child of the sixties, and I know about letting it all hang
out. On the other hand I did get exposed, boy did I, to the standard European
pseudo-aristocratic middle class tendency to want to be told what the Right
Stuff is and be able to boast that you know what it is.
The virtuous mean principle sometimes does apply. I am definitely against
being told by some arbiter of elegance what the Correct Thing is, whether it
is a matter of verifiable truth, an informable (my pseudo-word for capable of
being informed) value judgment, or a pure issue of taste. I want arbiters
to tell me what they think, and WHY, and I want to have the final say on my
own choices. This is the American Way , right?
On the other hand, the un-examined taste (the aesthetical equivalent of
libertarianism in political ideology), the this is what I like, and that is
it , cannot but degenerate, 99 out of 100 times (the 100th being the
potential taste aristocrat ), into kitsch. If kitsch is widely prevalent in
some cultures and sub-cultures, it is because they have not developed a
socialized doctrine of Good Taste. For good read: refined, examined,
searching, curious, thoughtful, non self-indulgent, not immediatist, context
heavy, culturally rich and situated, experienced, at once demanding of form
and open to restrained novelty (originality, creativity, but not the
kindergarten variety), etc, etc.
Is this a PROBLEM? --- asks Garfield. Well, not a problem like hungry
children or the nuclear war threat. It is a problem of prosperity and
leisure. If we do not know that such thing as a taste for symphonies, good
wine or high grade caviar (many other examples will spring from your mind,
assuredly) can be developed, somebody else is going to enjoy those good
things of life, while we watch MTV, eating Chef Boyardee and sipping Dr
Pepper. In many ways this is actually more of a social problem than it seems
at the first 10,000 glances, but I am not going there today.
The issue of form versus originality is particularly important. Balance is
everything. Form without creativity leads to a static, imperial-despotic type
of art, which is nothing necessarily to scoff at, but not something we want
as participants in an activity like dancing the tango. Do your own thing ,
un-educated, un-informed, shapeless originality leads to kitsch. Do you
want me to tell you what tango kitsch is?
In a (yes, intellectually privileged) corner of the web culture like a tango
list, the tendency is still to overvalue freedom of opinion, which I surely
will not question, I prize it too much, over a social consensus that demands
you to be reasonably well informed (open to becoming more so, always
searching to becoming more so) before you go off letting out a lot of hot
air. One is entitled to one s opinion, no matter how absurd, provided one is
humble about it, does not make it appear that one owns the truth, etc. That
is the American Way right? (Since I am not American in any of the various
senses of that word, the sticker on the back of my Winnebago reads: As a
matter of fact I DO own the bloody truth ).
OK, after all of this introductory material, who s to say what is authentic?
Is being authentic even a legitimate aspiration? Have we not yet fully
conquered the principle of total freedom? Are we going to let it all hang
out, or are we not? Is not this finally the time and the place?
Well, I do not know, I will let you guys decide. Let me just say a few more
little things. If you are going to do Argentinean tango, it seems wise to
start with one, or several, of the things that Argentines do, no?! (But not
necessarily to stop, because there is that RESTRAINED ORIGINALITY even an
ordinary human is entitled to in anything akin to an artistic endeavour.)
Obviously Argentines will vary in skill and taste, so they will do this tango
thing in many different ways, some good, some positively dreadful. So one
needs to look a bit at the whole picture, and use our developing taste, plus
what we had already developed perhaps in contact with other dance forms, or
other art forms. While doing that, one would be most wise to take a really
good look at the masters that Argentines, meaning, a lot of them,
particularly those who DO tango, look up to. Take particular notice of those
whom other acknowledged masters look up to. Soon you will start seeing THE
POINT (well, really, the points) of tango, and you start going, hm ..., aha!,
oops!, argh!!! as you look at live dancing, recorded performances, or
teaching, and listen to what people have to say about tango --- from friends
and family to the famous and the infamous.
Meanwhile you are making do with your local resources, complemented with
whatever you can get your hands on and may help, such as videos and books.
Armed with a developing taste, you will do the best you can within what is
available, or perhaps you move to another city, not excluding Buenos Aires,
but that is usually too extreme. Or you can become a real nuisance, like by
demanding of your single choice ballroom dancing school in Muncie Indiana to
either stop advertising that they teach AT, or else get somebody widely
recognized as competent from the Rio de La Plata region, permanently or
temporarily, to ensure that something really Argentinean/Uruguayan of
tolerable quality will be taught.
One small difficulty that you will encounter in these kinds of endeavours,
definitely not excluding Argentinean tango!, is the claims and counter-claims
of schools and competing masters seeking greater influence, more students or
gigs, an insurance against the threat of poverty --- that being often the
best that a dance teacher can do without a day job. How do you sort that out?
Well, first, there is the I am better than them kind of claim. That you
will always have with you, and sometimes it needs to be settled. So use your
developing taste, rather than the attractiveness of the claimants smile, or
some other irrelevancy. Beware of becoming a tango groupie, they all cut a
ridiculous figure, and make awful mistakes. And remember, if from a pragmatic
point of view you do not need to decide the issue, then you do not need to
decide the issue. Or you can decide it later, if you must, after acquiring
more experience.
You have also the I am more authentic than them , or even I am the
Authentic one, they are fakes . How do you sort that out? Here are some
thoughts that might help.
First, if you are not concerned with historical truth, only with making sure
you are not going to end up like learning the Macarenya when what you really
wanted was to learn the salsa, the following should suffice: If a varied crew
of many hundreds of experienced tango dancing Argentines do something that
someone teaches and you like, go ahead, its authentic enough. Make sure,
however that they are Argentines/Uruguayans, NOT honourable citizens of
Muncie Indiana!
History is often very enlightening, and a very significant component of a
developed taste. See, it is similar to some of the reasons why museums are so
important for culture and the arts. The experience of art includes the non
fungible experience of its history. What WAS widens your horizon and
enlightens what IS. So how do you sort out the historical claims, if you want
to? Here are some ideas.
1. If someone claims he is the ONLY authentic one, rather than merely
authentic, or more castizo, beware! He is trying to corner the market. This
sort of anti-dogmatic and anti-monopolistic bias is highly recommended.
2. You could go into a trance at some point in your growth process and seek
divine inspiration to determine who is going to be your guru. From that point
on you will listen to no one other than him and whomever he bestows his seal
of approval on. You will believe anything he tells you, including any raw,
half-backed, or cockamamie theories that he may propose. You will not
question anything, and will close your eyes to any facts or arguments that
may threaten your faith. You will reject anything he does not approve of.
This approach is not recommended.
3. Using a few things you gleaned here and there that you kind of like, plus
any amount of wild guessing and speculation, you could invent yourself any
number of cockamamie theories (even self contradictory ones, if you like)
containing the answers to any authenticity questions that may arise. This
approach is also not recommended.
4. You try to ascertain ascertainable facts (present and past) as well as you
can through reliable sources including, whenever possible, your own eyes and
ears. You exclude from consideration cockamamie theories, i.e., those that do
not stand up to the scrutiny of logic and common sense, or are at odds with
the facts as well as you have been able to ascertain them. You hold your
judgment on any other theories, yours or anybody else s, until it is clear
that they have been reasonably tested, and provide a reasonable account of
the facts as you know them. This approach seems OK to me.
If I find the time, I will tell the L one of these days what specific
conclusions I came to by using methods such as these. Meanwhile, a word about
Argentinean versus non-Argentinean teachers. There is probably no other issue
that stirs passions on this list as strongly as this one --- for obvious
reasons. But a person without vested professional interest, like myself,
deserves not to be short changed even as he recognizes the legitimacy of
anyone with the requisite competency engaging gainfully in the teaching of
the tango. I mean that.
So, let us consider input from top Rioplatense talent, as well as input from
tango natives (not necessarily great dancers) that may be valuable in giving
apprentices a sense of style from the past --- something like mothers milk.
My personal and shared experiences tell me that this is like a
vitamin/mineral supplement. Theoretically it is not needed, provided you
follow a nearly perfect regimen. It is certainly NOT necessary that
everything you eat and drink be supplemented. But a sensible supplementation
is often quite beneficial, at the very least a most wise insurance policy.
Though I cannot prove this, I am convinced that a community where the
connection with the Rio de la Plata depends on past experiences of non-native
teachers, or even a second-hand continuing low grade connection with la
patria del tango, runs a high risk of starting badly and ending worse in
terms of authenticity; while a community that makes a point of serving as
rich a brew as it is practical, keeping in touch with both the classics and
the newer developments at the origin, may go through growth pains, but will
get better with time. In my neck of the woods we are not doing too badly, but
we could do better by becoming health food store freaks.
__________________________________________________
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 17 Aug 2000 to 18 Aug 2000 (#2000-223)
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