The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 16 Aug 2000
to 17 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Aug 2000 to 17 Aug 2000 (#2000-222)
There are 7 messages totalling 535 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Tango Styles
2. Authenticity: Further Comments
3. Tango in Los Angeles
4. Tango in the United States
5. Instructional Videos for Beginners
6. Tango Authenticity by Tom Stermitz
7. Tango Authenticity
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 01:15:04 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles
Sergio Suppa writes:
> [T]here is only one Argentine Tango which is highly improvised and
> may acquire different styles.
This is my belief also.
Dividing tango up into competing styles does tango a disservice. Often
the dividers select one style as the One True "Authentic" Tango & all
the others as Fake Tango (& their followers evil & incompetent). This
only reveals those who make such claims as small-minded & mean-souled.
Such behavior ultimately makes all of us enemies because (as Sergio
says)
> Tango being highly improvised can acquire an infinite number of vari-
> ations.
Dividing them up into simply different styles, on the other hand, can
be a genuine service to novices trying to go beyond that state. For
instance, Tom Stermitz categorizes the very-close-embrace style into
several sub-styles. (I would have like to have heard more details,
however.)
But once an artist (in any field, not just dancing) becomes an advanced
practitioner, we begin to see/feel/hear/etc. subtle differences that
were invisible to us before. And we begin to be able to do things we
didn't dream were possible (& therefore to create new styles).
For instance, in the apilado ("milonguero") embrace I've begun to notice
that different women lay their arms on my shoulders differently. Some
just flop them up there & they lie loose. Others somehow manage to let
their arms lie lightly yet paradoxically grasp me gently but firmly
with them. And some of them go beyond that. For instance, they are able
to do things with their hands but still not disturb the embrace. Such
as caress my hair if they are happy with me - or slap my ear, as one
did recently when I let a hand wander a little too low!
Another for instance. I've begun to be able to do sacadas & lead boleos
in a very close embrace. I'm still not terribly good at it, & I have to
have a partner who knows to respond to those leads with close-to-the-
body actions so as not to hurt a bystander. But I can do it & I'm
getting better.
Finally, to quote Sergio one last time:
> Theoretically every couple could have its own style and most
> of the time they do.
I would go even further & say that the SAME couple could have several
styles depending on the music, the surroundings, the way they felt
(tired, elated, etc.), & the way they felt about each other at the
time.
And so we all - after we graduate from novice - go way beyond such
useful but ultimately overly-simple classificatons as "salon" or
"apilado."
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:33:41 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Authenticity: Further Comments
> Tom Stermitz started an discussion about the authencity and competency
> of tango dancing in North America. To some extent these are two
> separate issues. I will address them separately.
Thanks to Steve for contributing this.
Competency is as important as authenticity, and I think there is a
general tendency to stop studying tango before people have really
gotten competent. If we lived in communities with a majority of
really good dancers, then we might be able to pick tango up with
fewer classes, but when we learn bad habits from the beginners who
have just learned last month, it is really difficult to go forward.
I noticed in my learning a constant reinvention of my skills,
returning to the most fundamental things. This occurred on a monthly
basis for a while, and then settled down to once every six months.
It is the old pull yourself up by the bootstraps problem
I have been careful to describe the problem of authenticity NOT as a
stylistic one, but I'm afraid my visibility as advocating milonguero
style makes it hard to separate the two in people's minds.
I agree with Steve that salon style easily slides into exhibition
figures. As we have a lot of average, middle aged people wanting to
do stage movements, it is no wonder that they don't look like Osvaldo
& Lorena.
But even regular social salon tango requires a lot of skill and
practice. I notice a general tendency for people to learn steps
without much quality of movement. The bigger failing is a
disconnection between the two dancers. In my book the single most
important thing about tango is the close connection between the man
and the woman. The open embrace of N. American Salon tango (in BsAs
it is not so open) permits beginners to disconnect.
I have to apologize for singling out LA (in what was a private
message...One should never post love letters in emails.) The issue is
much wider than LA, and I would prefer to leave it up to local
teachers and organizers to evaluate for themselves whether their
local scene is improving or declining.
In fact, I've received private comments critical of N. American tango
from all over (including LA). This is despite Mark's very energetic
and long-standing work as an organizer of milongas and teachers in
LA. My point is that it takes more than "just" organizing and it is
more than numbers of students or attendance at a milonga; you have to
assess whether your efforts are really turning out good dancers,
(authentic or competent).
The problem of women going to Argentina and then returning with a
4-month depression is not just of psychological interest. Talk to
them yourselves, and likewise talk to the guys who have succeeded
there.
Or better, go to BsAs yourself and see what it takes to succeed.
My point is that the general level N. American tango is an order of
magnitude or more short of what the general level is in Bs, again in
terms of both competency and authenticity.
> Authencity:
>
> Both the styles typically identified as salon and milonguero should be
> regarded as authentic. What is commonly identified as salon style
> tango emerged during the golden age of tango, and it is the style
> danced by most of the older milongueros. The pictoral evidence and
> the memories of the older milongueros and long-time visitors to Buenos
> Aires provide ample evidence for the authenticity of the style.
>...
> Competency:
>
> The apparent competency of social dancers in North America could be
> declining for a number of reasons. Incompetent teaching is one
> possibility as is dancers who have grown content with their
> mediocrity. I do not agree with the implicit suggestion in Tom's
> initial posting of judging competency on the basis of style.
>...
> Teaching methods and competency:
>
>...
> In the end, the choice of style is personal and attempts to politicize
> the choice are of little value.
>
> --Steve de Tejas
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:26:11 GMT
From: Alexis White <alexisltc @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango in Los Angeles
Regarding tango in L.A. and Southern California in general, I must second
every word Mark has posted: we have one of the most vibrant and diverse
tango communities in North America, with more than ten (yes 10!) milongas
per week in Los Angeles alone, with numerous others in the nearby cities.
There are many styles, schools, philosophies (whatever you want to call it)
of dancing represented here, old school, new school, milonguero, salon, even
canyengue. All very well done. And we have some of the best dancers in
North America as well, male or female, American, European and Argentinian.
It is still amazing that outsiders would find it surprising to see the good
level we have here. Perhaps some of these visitors need to spend a little
more time on their dancing and less on the internet and improve enough to
handle a dance with our better tangueros.
Visiting teachers flock to the Southern California area for tango. Why?
perhaps because we have had tango here for over twenty five years. How many
other tango communities anywhere outside Argentina can boast about that?
And as in every other community there will be
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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:10:02 -0700
From: Linda Valentino <LindaValentino @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Tango in the United States
First, I want to apologize in advance for the length of this posting. But
the topic is one that cannot be covered in a few sentences. I want to thank
Tom Stermitz for raising what, for me, is the most important topic this list
could discuss. Having visited Buenos Aires nine times over the past eight
years, it's painfully obvious to me that the level of tango dancing in
general in this country is not just inferior but so far inferior that I
don't know if we'll ever have much success in making tango anything other
than a tiny dance sub-culture in this country. There does seem to be certain
cities where the level of dancing is better than in others. I think this
mainly has to do with the number of people in those communities who have
taken the trouble to go to Buenos Aires and see--and learn--how the dance is
really done. I have a very different take on the dancing in my city, Los
Angeles, than was expressed recently by another contributor to this list.
First (and I think this applies not only to L.A. but to most of this
country), almost everyone formed their idea as to what tango is from seeing
tango shows, primarily Tango Argentino and Forever Tango. Of course, with
this frame of reference as their only information, it was natural for people
to think that what they saw on the stage was, in fact, what was done in
Buenos Aires. Also, the flamboyant style of stage dancing that most of us
were exposed to via the aforementioned shows attracted many people who were
primarily interested in dancing for the applause of others. This "show-off
mentality" is completely at odds with the tango as "un baile popular," a
social dance where the point is to dance for the music, one's partner and
one's self, while respecting the dance space of the other couples in the
milonga. This is the true milonguero's mentality. The show-offs and clowns
still abound in Los Angeles, despite the fact that a great many good
teachers have come here from Buenos Aires and tried to correct this
misunderstanding. You can find the show-offs at all of the milongas here,
doing their ridiculous "schtick": their multiple ganchos and high boleos on
crowded floors; their silly poses; their long, memorized show sequences that
don't go line of dance and take up the entire dance floor; their verbal
instruction of the women ("now you kick your leg up here, now do an ocho,
now move my foot, etc., etc." because no one taught them to lead. This is
why, contrary to what was stated in a previous posting, there are many of us
more advanced dancers who do not go to most of the milongas in L.A. We are
very selective about where we go because we'd like to be able to dance
without being kicked, crashed into, stepped on, etc. Which brings us to
another root of the problem: a history of bad teaching which still affects
the dance here. First, the people who taught here initially in 1986 and 1987
when the tango first came on the scene in L.A. were dancers from Tango
Argentino. The Dinzels, Mayoral, etc., taught huge classes of hundreds of
people in venues like the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel. Unfortunately, these
teachers were not social dancers. (Has anyone ever seen Rodolfo Dinzel in a
milonga in Buenos Aires? And if you did, did he actually dance?) Outside of
the basic and ochos, they taught what they knew--steps that were appropriate
on stage, but not on the social floor. What did they care--they were doing
it for the money, and they knew that the Americans wanted all that "flash
and trash." After Tango Argentino left town, we had one teacher here,
Orlando Paiva. Because they had never seen real social tango, everyone
thought that what Orlando was teaching was the real thing. However, his is
not a social style of dancing. It is his own, eccentric form of exhibition
tango that relies heavily on choreographed steps with names like the
"alligator." Most of his material does not go line of dance. It either stays
in one place or ricochets back and forth across the floor. He also did not
teach anyone to dance to the music. Instead, they were told to dance "inside
the music," or "within the music." And they were told that tango has no
strict rhythm, that you "interpret the rhythm." As I have pointed out to
numerous Paiva devotees in this town, one interprets the rhythm in any
dance--swing, salsa, what have you. But first you have to be ON the rhythm
to be able to interpret it. All of these statements were used to simply
cover up the fact that Paiva has no rhythm. He danced only to slow music--Di
Sarli or Pugliese--as s-l-o-w-l-y as possible and disconnected from the
music. And although it has been stated that "no one dances Paiva's style
here anymore" (gee, if it were only true!), this is unfortunately not the
case. Many, many people here were either taught directly by Paiva or by
other "teachers" who were taught by Paiva. And they maintain the same bad
habits that were instilled in them early on. The men place the woman way
over on their right side, so that the women look like they're crab-walking
and always being dragged behind the men. The men cannot walk. They step
first with the foot way out in front of the body, then follow with the
pelvis, then finally with the torso. This necessitates the woman leaning on
the man because she gets no intention from his upper body. She's essentially
following his feet and being carried on his right hip. They also lead very
much with the hands and fingers, not with the upper body. The folks who were
trained that way usually can only dance with other people trained that way.
This is the legacy of the man whom some people here still insist on calling
"el maestro de maestros"! I was trained in Paiva tango for the first two
years that I danced. On my first trip to Buenos Aires, in 1992, imagine my
surprise when I found out that first, nobody had even heard of Paiva there
and second, everything I had been taught was wrong. (I do not wish to cast
aspersions here on my first teachers, Michael Walker and Luren Bellucci.
They are superb dancers and teachers. They were simply teaching what they
had been taught, and they soon learned that it was not the standard form of
social tango. They quickly changed their style of dancing and teaching when
they were exposed to Danel and Maria and many other fine teachers from
Buenos Aires.) By the time of my second trip in 1993, I decided that Paiva
tango was something I no longer wished to do. I wanted to dance like the
people in Buenos Aires, and I started all over again to unlearn my bad
habits and learn correct technique. Beyond the Paiva problem, L.A., like
many other cities, has been deluged with teachers from Argentina, many good,
but also many bad. Unlike many other cities, we have here a number of
resident Argentineans who are living here for one reason only: they couldn't
make a living in Buenos Aires dancing or teaching tango because they're not
good enough. One man has lived here for at least the past seven years. He is
a show dancer with a well known tango show that travels all over the world.
But 90% of what he dances in the show is not tango. It is modern dance and
adagio with a few tango steps thrown in. He never danced in the milongas
when he lived in Buenos Aires because he cannot dance socially. Yet people
have flocked to his classes for years. Needless to say, most of them are
disasters on the social floor. Another couple has lived here for about three
years, and they are among the worst dancers I have ever seen. They know
absolutely nothing about social dancing, and their performance tango is so
hideous it is embarrassing. But because they are Argentinean and claim to
be "internationally famous tango dancers and choreographers," the people who
don't know any better go to their classes and learn absolutely nothing. (By
the way, my numerous contacts in the professional tango world in Buenos
Aires have never heard of these people. Big surprise.) Another couple, a
brother and sister, have been here a couple of years. They are primarily
folklore dancers and the tango they know and teach is the type that some of
the folklore dancers learn in order to dance in some of the lower-class
Buenos Aires tourist shows. Lots of ganchos, lots of poses, lifts, jumps,
etc. In other words, useless for the social floor. (Imagine wanting to learn
swing, but the only thing being taught is "flying Lindy"!) There are others,
but I think you get the idea. The next bad teaching problem is that almost
all of the Americans who have taught here for any length of time have been
trained by Paiva, Paiva proteges, or show dancers, and either have never
gone to Buenos Aires, or they have gone once and never returned because they
couldn't dance down there. They don't encourage their students to go because
they know that their students will discover that what they're being taught
here is a far cry from the real social dance. I am the only teacher here who
takes a group of students to Buenos Aires every year. I consider it a
responsibility of any credible teacher. These days, with so many reasonably
priced opportunities to go to Buenos Aires, someone who teaches has no
excuse for not going. And if you don't go and study there (both in classes
and by watching in the milongas), you have no business teaching. It's like
saying, "I've never been to medical school, but sure, I can operate on you!"
Another bad teaching problem is that many people in L.A. are now bringing
teachers from Buenos Aires with little or no knowledge as to who these
people are and whether they're good teachers or not. Most of these
organizers are deejays whose top priority is to promote their own milongas
and make money, not to promote quality teaching and dancing. They will
promote just about anybody who can claim to have danced in a show,
regardless of whether the person knows anything about social tango. They
exagerate and misrepresent the stature of these people in the professional
tango world. They present the most unknown Paiva clone from Rosario or
wanna-be from Buenos Aires with the same breathless adjectives one would use
to promote a Miguel Zotto. They do it for profit and they mislead everyone.
I was the first person to bring teachers here from Buenos Aires on a regular
basis, starting in 1992, and I have a strict policy of only bringing people
here if I have previously taken classes with them, or in rare instances, if
they are recommended to me by more than one of my sources in Buenos Aires
whose judgment I know and trust. It's called QUALITY CONTROL. I could make
a lot of money bringing show dancers who teach a lot of "flash and trash,"
or people who teach the latest fad. I prefer to bring teachers who respect
the codigos and the essence of the dance, teach correct technique and
actually leave something positive behind. I know some people will take great
issue with my use of the words "wrong" and "correct," and will prefer to
explain away the differences as simply a difference in "style." I believe
this is a mistake. Every dance has certain fundamental characteristics that
define it as that dance. Inside those parameters there can be many different
styles, but the fundamental techniques are the same. When one operates so
far outside those fundamental techniques, it is not a difference in style.
It's bad dancing. When someone is never is on the music when they dance
swing or salsa, that's not style. That's bad dancing. I think that the
arguments about tango in this country should not be about whether one is
dancing milonguero style or salon style. Both are authentic (although much
of what is presented as salon tango here is heavily imbued with
fantasia/show tango). As Sergio has pointed out, you will see both styles in
Buenos Aires, depending on where you go, how crowded the floor is, and what
music is playing. The folks who dance salon tango there dance it in close
embrace, with some occasional separations, depending on what type of figure
is being led. The argument should be about whether one is dancing within the
parameters of good tango or not. For example: are both partners on their own
axis? Can they maintain their own balance thoughout the dance and not
disturb their partner's? Can the man lead (wordlessly, thank you) any woman
who knows how to follow, and can the woman follow any man who knows how to
lead? Does the man lead with his torso, or does he push the woman around
with his hands and poke his fingers in her spine? Does the woman WAIT for
each lead before making a movement, or does she "baila sola"? Does she know
NEVER to change her weight arbitrarily? (I'm not talking about a momentary
traspie-type of weight change.) Does the man dance with an awareness of
what's going on around him on the floor, and does he choose his movements
according to the available space, the speed at which other couples are
dancing, etc.? Do both the man and woman dance TO THE MUSIC? If this is not
what people are being taught by either American or Argentinean teachers, we
are destined to remain a tiny group. We may continue to attract the
show-offs and clowns, but we will frustrate and turn off the majority of
normal, common sense folks who want to be able to dance without memorizing a
bunch of complicated patterns and making fools of themselves trying to do
show steps which are best suited to professional dancers whose bodies are
prepared to dance this material on the stage.
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:16:17 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Instructional Videos for Beginners
Perhaps the most frequent question by readers of my video reviews is
which video tapes would be most suitable for beginners.
In the opinion of most Argentine tango dancers and instructors, video
tapes are a poor substitute for live instruction, particularly at the
beginning level. With that warning in mind, a number of video tapes
do offer material intended for beginners. Together these videos offer
a rich set of choices for the beginning tango dancer who wishes to
learn salon-style tango.
I am using the following five-star rating system:
PASS not recommended for purchase
* fair
** good
*** very good
**** most excellent
***** truly outstanding
***.5 Los Dinzels
***** Carlos Copello and Alicia Monti - How to Tango, Volumes I & II
**.5 Diego & Gabriela - Tango Romantico, Volume I
**** Gloria y Eduardo
**.5 Jorge Nel and Laura - Learn to Dance Argentine Tango
***.5 Orlando Paiva & Susana - Teach Argentine Tango
**.5 Orlando Paiva - Argentine Tango Elegant: Volume I, Basic
**** Esther and Pablo Pugliese - Basics of Salon Tango
*** Ricardo & Nicole - Curso de Tango, Volume I
** Alberto Toledano and Loreen Arbus
**** Daniel Trenner with Brooke Burdett- Argentine Tango, Vol. I
**.5 Daniel Trenner and Rebecca Shulman - Instructional Video Lvl. I
***** Osvaldo Zotto and Mora Godoy - Asi Se Baila El Tango, Vol 1 & 2
Comprehensive instruction for beginning Argentine tango dancers
includes a number of essential elements. One is to see how tango is
danced. Another is to learn that tango is improvisational and to
develop an understanding of the structure from which the dance is
constructed. Another is to learn to move to the music. Another is to
learn lead and follow skills. Another is to learn principles of good
form. Last is to learn some beginning steps and patterns.
None of the beginning video tapes take an integrated approach to these
topics. To get the most complete coverage of topics, I generally
recommend the Trenner/Burdett video combined with either the
Zotto/Godoy, Copello/Monti or Gloria y Eduardo videos. The Pugliese
video is particularly good in its coverage of basic turns.
All of the beginning videos with the exception of the Zotto/Godoy
videos provide complete demonstration dances--with the best to be
found on the Copello/Monti and the Diego & Gabriela videos. Daniel
Trenner's video tapes (with either Brooke Burdett or Rebecca Shulman
as his partners) explain that tango is improvisational and teach the
basic structural elements of tango. The Pugliese video also offers
some instruction on improvisational methods. Only the Jorge Nel video
attempts to teach rhythm directly. The Trenner and Pugliese videos
offer instruction on lead and follow skills while the other videos
emphasize lead and follow parts. The Copello/Monti, Gloria y Eduardo,
the Pugliese, and the Zotto/Godoy videos offer some instruction on
form, but the Trenner/Burdett video is more comprehensive on the
subject. The professors demonstrate the best form in their own
dancing on the Paiva & Susana, Copello/Monti, Zotto/Godoy, Pugliese,
and Diego & Gabriela videos. All of the beginning videos provide
instruction on steps and patterns with the exception of the Trenner
videos. Of those teaching steps and patterns, the clearest
instruction and strongest production values are found on the
Zotto/Godoy, Copello/Monti and Ricardo & Nicole videos.
Individual reviews found at <http://www.planet-tango.com/reviews.htm>
offer more information about the contents of each listed video
including where to buy them.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:06:57 -0400
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @OPERAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity by Tom Stermitz
Raising questions about what style of Tango is authentic or real seems very
suspect without talking about the role of the most influential teachers in the
United States.
Isn't it a fact that the most influential Tango teacher in the United States
for the past 10 years has been Daniel Trenner? At the very least, he has been
one of the few most influential teachers, especially in Colorado. I find it
surprising that all these complains about the poor quality of Tango in the USA
are coming from the Trenner Cholulo Patron (or is it Suzana Miller now).
Maybe some of the teachers are in need of lessons themselves.
Cheers,
Silvia.
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:21:54 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity
Who is really to say what is and what isn't Authentic Argentine Tango.
I'm told that tango changed in style from one milonga to another, in Buenos
Aires. Infact right here in Cleveland there is my community plus another
small one. We both dance differently. Which community is the more authentic.
does it really matter? Most of the instructors that I bring to Cleveland
preach create your own steps using the elements of what they just taught us.
So there might be some steps we're dancing in Cleveland that no one else
knows in the world.
All I do know is, tango comes from the heart, and how I dance changes with
each different partner I dance with. It changes with the music, the way I
feel that day and so on.
I think we're dancing incredible well in Cleveland, and I'm proud of every
one who comes to Belinda's Bar. I hope everyone can come to Cleveland and see
what we're doing.
I am
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
End of TANGO-L Digest - 16 Aug 2000 to 17 Aug 2000 (#2000-222)
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