The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 15 Aug 2000
to 16 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 03:00:06 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 15 Aug 2000 to 16 Aug 2000 (#2000-221)
There are 10 messages totalling 503 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. tango commercials (3)
2. Coca-Cola tango/tango everywhere
3. Tango Authenticity
4. Coca-Cola tango/tango everywhere (La Valse)
5. Fwd: Re: Coca-Cola tango
6. Visit to L.A.
7. Tango in Los Angeles
8. Authenticity: Further Comments
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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:16:46 -0700
From: "Pelayo Llamas, Jr." <pelayojr @LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: Re: tango commercials
Thanks for the site. Now all can see the famous Palomita Blanca "car
tango" commercial which some were lamenting was not aired in their
locality. Click on this link:
http://industry.adcritic.com/content/vw-flirt.html
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 15:33:57 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Coca-Cola tango/tango everywhere
Original Message-----
From: Erica Sutton <ericaatwork @hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, August 14, 2000 11:11 PM
>I have not seen either one again ~ and wondered when someone on the
List
>would confirm that I was not hallucinating tango ...
I guess there is certain amount of hallucination involved in seeing
tango
everywhere although apparently the above one is not.
I think I recently saw my first tango sculpture, 'la valse' at musee
Rodin in bronze, cast in 1892 - 1905 by Camille(some history
at http://www.musee-rodin.fr/welcome.htm Collections -> camille
claudel).
It has(for me) features of close embrace tango and not viennese
waltz(which
is chest fully inflated with pride and face away and straight, full of
pride) but
the right hand of man is extended somewhat outward straight
horizontally,
cheek to cheek with the man somewhat looking down(a big no-no in this
forum? ;-) but a marvellous scultpture.
rajan.
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:16:36 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity
>Tango Authenticity
>Tom Stermitz
As I said, I received a number of private responses. A large majority
of them were from women.
In tango, the man sets the style and tone of the dance. As a result
the women gets to try out all the different guys. Men are condemned
to always dance their own style of dance.
Close embrace hides little...it is interesting to dance with a woman
whose dance partner does a lot of ganchos and stage stuff, to
discover when she is with me she really gets turned on by the sensual
and the intimate.
I don't really want to put this on the men, rather I think it is the
lack of vision of the local organizers, and the failing on the part
of the teachers (local and travelling) to teach a connected,
heart&soul tango.
Here are some of the best responses I received from some women
(removing the names so they can remain anonymous):
"I have wanted someone to start this thread
and I was not willing to do so myself, as I already have the reputation of
being a "troublemaker" in my own community for expressing the same opinions
as you did. I have been going to Buenos Aires annually for the past nine
years. When I return and have to face the pretty dreadful level of dancing
here in the states I always go into what I call my "post-B.A. depression,"
which lasts two or three months."
Another:
"I support what you are saying, that the American dance community seems to be
learning something very different from Argentine tango. Basically, it seems
like we are trying to imitate the outward flourishes of the steps, vs. learn
from the inside out. I figure it's partly because they haven't experienced
the connection by dancing with true milongueros (whether Argentine or not),
partly because our culture values external or casual v. internal or intimate
pursuits, perhaps partly an American nervousness at non-sexual touching?
Face it, we are a puritan culture."
Here is another choice comment:
"I have only been dancing Tango for 2 1/2 years,
but something that seems to stand out very clearly, is that there are a lot
of people spending a lot of money and not getting very much in return in
terms of learning to dance Tango. Most of the students here that have had
the time and money to attend a lot of workshops get worse and worse and
worse."
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:20:36 GMT
From: Erica Sutton <ericaatwork @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Coca-Cola tango/tango everywhere (La Valse)
To see the a picture of the sculpture La Valse by C. Claudel that Rajan
mentions below, follow this link:
http://www.ombres-blanches.fr/bulletin/sept1998/delbee.html
Thank you, Rajan. I have changed my computer's wallpaper!
Erica
Chicago
tango @argentinamail.com
>From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
>Reply-To: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
>To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: Coca-Cola tango/tango everywhere
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 15:33:57 +0200
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Erica Sutton <ericaatwork @hotmail.com>
>Date: Monday, August 14, 2000 11:11 PM
>
>
> >I have not seen either one again ~ and wondered when someone on the
>List
> >would confirm that I was not hallucinating tango ...
>
>I guess there is certain amount of hallucination involved in seeing
>tango
>everywhere although apparently the above one is not.
>
>I think I recently saw my first tango sculpture, 'la valse' at musee
>Rodin in bronze, cast in 1892 - 1905 by Camille(some history
>at http://www.musee-rodin.fr/welcome.htm Collections -> camille
>claudel).
>
>It has(for me) features of close embrace tango and not viennese
>waltz(which
>is chest fully inflated with pride and face away and straight, full of
>pride) but
>the right hand of man is extended somewhat outward straight
>horizontally,
>cheek to cheek with the man somewhat looking down(a big no-no in this
>forum? ;-) but a marvellous scultpture.
>
>
>rajan.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:30:45 GMT
From: Erica Sutton <ericaatwork @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Coca-Cola tango
Here is the link for the Thermasilk ad on www.adcritic.com
http://www.adcritic.com/content/thermasilk-party.html
Erica
>From: Jason Laughlin - Baila Tango NC <jason @bailatango.com>
>To: tango @argentinamail.com
>Subject: Re: Coca-Cola tango
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 02:16:15 -0400
>
>I'd spotted the shampoo tango on adcritic.com shortly after it was posted
>Aug 2.
>
>The thermasilk commercial is called Thermasilk-Party and features a
>stylized
>tango (about 4 seconds or so -- a back ocho into a molinete/giro with the
>man
>drawing a circle of fire with his leg). The music is a percussive piece.
>The
>party evokes some mythical Greek affair -- the man is a warrior with a
>flaming
>torso, the woman is an attractive medusa, with snakes for hair.
>
>You can find it at http://www.adcritic.com/content/thermasilk-party.html
>It requires the Apple Quicktime viewer.
>
>Enjoy,
>Jason
>
>P.S. feel free to fwd this to the Tango-L. I'd just changed addresses and
>can't
>post yet, otherwise I'd do it myself.
>
>Erica Sutton
>
>Erica Sutton wrote:
>
> > I saw the Coke commercial about 3 weeks ago (looks very similar the the
> > Terra.com one with a tango dancer image) and have yet to see it again.
>In
> > the same evening I also saw one for Thermasilk heat-activated shampoo
>(?? or
> > something like that) that had a graphically-flame-haired woman
> > tango-dueling with a dragon-hairdryer. It was very stylized, but I even
>seem
> > to remember that the woman had on shoes very close to tango shoes.
> >
> > I have not seen either one again ~ and wondered when someone on the List
> > would confirm that I was not hallucinating tango commercials ~ I was
> > actually reduced to watching the commercials for a week or so there,
>trying
> > to catch them again!
> >
> > Erica
> > Chicago
> > tango @argentinamail.com
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:48:04 -0700
From: Barbara Alexius <taitango @IO.COM>
Subject: Visit to L.A.
Thanks to Linda, Alexis, Cherie, and Mark for responding to all my questions
about dancing in L.A. And Linda and Mark, I appreciate the warm reception.
I felt very welcome. Hector, thanks for the ride. (By the way, we do have
a Johnny Rockets here!) Hope all of you will have an opportunity to visit
us here in Austin. We are young, but thriving. Maybe I will see some of
you at our Tango Fiesta over the Labor Day Weekend.
Thanks again for welcoming me to tango in L.A.
Barbara
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 15:27:01 -0400
From: Phil Ferrigno <Phil.Ferrigno @MAPICS.COM>
Subject: Re: tango commercials
One of the links on the attached page pointed to yet another tango
commercial by Flecto.
It can be found at
http://industry.adcritic.com/content/flecto-verathane-tango.html
Best regards,
Phil
Forwarded by Phil Ferrigno/ATLANTA/MAPICS on
08/15/2000 03:21 PM ---------------------------
"Pelayo Llamas, Jr." <pelayojr @LANMINDS.COM> @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> on 08/15/2000
03:16:46 AM
Please respond to pelayojr @LanMinds.Com
Sent by: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
<TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
Subject: Re: tango commercials
Thanks for the site. Now all can see the famous Palomita Blanca "car
tango" commercial which some were lamenting was not aired in their
locality. Click on this link:
http://industry.adcritic.com/content/vw-flirt.html
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:47:23 -0700
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Tango in Los Angeles
In a letter from Tom Stermitz to Sergio Suppa which somehow got posted on
this list, Mr. Stermitz relates a false picture regarding tango dancing
in Los Angeles.
>" Most of the LA dancers who have actually gone to BsAs don`t go out to
dance much there, preferring to travel."
This is completely false. I know virtually every single tango dancer in
L.A. who has been dancing for more than a year, many of whom are regular
visitors to Buenos Aires. All (100%) of them attend 1 or more of the many
weekly tango venues in the Los Angeles area on a regular basis. Most of
them attend all.
>"...in LA which has a tremendous amount of influence from Orlando Paiva
is so completely salon style...
It is true that Orlando was a huge influence on the LA tango scene in the
beginning some 15 years ago, instructing many well-known tango
dancers/performers/teachers. He was also the primary instructor of tango
in the Argentine community of Los Angeles during the 1970`s/early 80`s.
Virtually all have abandoned his style & methods of teaching. Basically,
no one could emulate him. There is absolutely no one in Los Angeles today
who even comes close to dancing like Orlando Paiva.
Since the early times here, Los Angeles has been literally bombarded with
visiting instructors, even more now than ever, all professing
'"Authenticity", displaying different styles, calling it every name that
has been mentioned on this list & then some, & frequently contradicting
one another. I have always tried to have everyone of them as a guest
teacher at my weekly milonga whether I liked them or not, not only to
give them exposure, but also to offer to the people a variety of tango
styles - one that each person could relate to, & also an instructor that
he/she might feel more comfortable with.
The majority (virtually all) of tango dancers in LA today reflect these
instructors & not Orlando Paiva.
>"...that the ladies are astonished if you do a milonguero rock step''.
In Los Angeles we have many wonderful female dancers who are able to
follow all the outstanding dancers who visit us. They will follow your
"miloguero rock step" if it is led properly.
Best regards to all,
Mark Celaya
Los Angeles
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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:38:33 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Authenticity: Further Comments
Tom Stermitz started an discussion about the authencity and competency
of tango dancing in North America. To some extent these are two
separate issues. I will address them separately.
Authencity:
Both the styles typically identified as salon and milonguero should be
regarded as authentic. What is commonly identified as salon style
tango emerged during the golden age of tango, and it is the style
danced by most of the older milongueros. The pictoral evidence and
the memories of the older milongueros and long-time visitors to Buenos
Aires provide ample evidence for the authenticity of the style.
This style is dominant in most North American cities because it is the
style known and practiced by most of the visiting instructors with a
long-standing reputation in tango. In addition, a quick survey of the
102 instructional videos tapes currently available in North America
reveals that at most only five might be characterized as of milonguero
style tango.
The milonguero style is largely a personal style that may have been
developed by Tete and has been popularized by Susana Miller and
others. It has become the dominant style for the younger generation
of tango dancers in the crowded night clubs of central Buenos Aires.
This style is also is dominant in several European and North American
cities.
Some individuals continue to confuse salon style tango with as stage
tango. I suspect the confusion arises from several sources.
1) The dancers in Tango Argentino and Tango X 2 sought to preserve
authencity of social forms while creating a theatrical performance.
To do so they created an exhibition form of tango based on social
tango. As a result there is a continuum between fantasia and salon
tango that allows couples dancing salon to inject elements of
fantasia. The embrace of milonguero style tango prevents the
introduction of these elements.
2) In addition, many salon-style instructors teach memorized sequence
of steps and ignore improvisational skills. This method of teaching
may give some dancers the false impression that salon-style tango is
characterized by mini-choreographies rather than improvisation. Yet
the older practioners of salon style all clearly improvise when
dancing socially.
Competency:
The apparent competency of social dancers in North America could be
declining for a number of reasons. Incompetent teaching is one
possibility as is dancers who have grown content with their
mediocrity. I do not agree with the implicit suggestion in Tom's
initial posting of judging competency on the basis of style.
Let me suggest another possibility:
A friend who has visited Buenos Aires extensively and been part of the
tango scene there for the past 15 years reports that one could easily
get the impression that the average quality of tango dancing in Buenos
Aires has declined. His explanation was that the resurgence of tango
has led to so many milongas that the really good dancers with
extensive experience have spread out and have been diluted by the
newer, less capable dancers.
In some other cities, such as the San Francisco Bay Area, tango has
also grown rapidly in recent years. The result has been the
development of many milongas spread out geographically. In the past,
the core group of good dancers used to travel extensively to reach
milongas. A visitor to the city got the impression of a growing tango
community with many good dancers. Now, the good dancers have spread
out across many milongas Now a visitor to the city gets the
impression of a large tango community with a few good dancers.
Teaching methods and competency:
It is obvious from watching that all of the competent tango dancers
dance social tango improvisationally and with a feeling of connection
to their partner. Most instructors of salon-style tango emphasize
steps and step patterns in their instruction over improvisational
skills or the feeling of connection. They allow improvisational
skills and the feeling of connection to emerge on their own. Some
salon-style instructors may also include elements of fantasia.
In contrast, many instructors of close-embrace tango emphasize
improvisation and the feeling of connection. They also promote the
notion that they help their students reach the inner tango more
quickly. Like many of the older milongueros, I suspect that
milonguero-style tango attracts those dancers more interested in a
simpler style that promotes physical contact and improvisation more
quickly than does the more complex and sublime salon style.
In the end, the choice of style is personal and attempts to politicize
the choice are of little value.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:42:24 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: tango commercials
Thank you, Billie Hill, for the URL for online ads. The tango commercial
is at the URL below. It shows Apollo the Sun God surrounded by flames,
approached by the Gorgon with snakes for hair. The background music is a
tango, & as they dance a tango his heat transforms her hair to beautiful
natural tresses.
You must have QuickTime before you can view this commercial online.
http://www.adcritic.com/content/thermasilk-party.html
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 15 Aug 2000 to 16 Aug 2000 (#2000-221)
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