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Digest from 13 Aug 2000
to 14 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 13 Aug 2000 to 14 Aug 2000 (#2000-219)
There are 8 messages totalling 546 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Phone No for Osvaldo Zotto & Lorena
2. Tango Authenticity (3)
3. A little survey...
4. Tango Styles
5. Tango Styles - Questions & answers -
6. More on tango styles
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 14:03:38 -0700
From: Thomas Barnard <tbbarnard @MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: Phone No for Osvaldo Zotto & Lorena
Anyone have a North American phone number for Osvaldo Zotto and Lorena.
Since Lorena speaks English, perhaps her phone would be the one. Please
contact me privately.
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 07:22:59 -0700
From: Melville Fox <moby_fox @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET> wrote:
> What the heck is going on with tango in the US!
>
> In what traveling I have done and in conversations
> with people from many
> cities, I am getting the message that although there
> are many teachers and
> many lovers of tango, the general quality of dancing
> in the US is really bad
> and not getting any better.
> ... after taking
> several trips to Buenos Aires,
> I am struck by the degree to which N. Americans do
> NOT dance tango like they
> do in Argentina.
> What is "real Tango" and what is "authentic?"
Very few North Americans will ever dance tango like
it's done in Buenos Aires. They grow up with it,
understand the lyrics and understand the emotions that
are part of their culture. To us, it's an imported
culture. If we're honest with ourselves, we North
Americans will probably never have the requisite
mental and emotional state to be 'authentic' However,
I don't think we should get all bent out of shape
worrying about how 'authentic' we are. If we
constantly look over our shoulders at the observing
Argentinos worrying about whether we're doing it
right, we will seriously diminsh our enjoyment of the
dance. I think the question to ask is not whether we
are dancing 'authentic' tango (a argentinocentric
view), but whether our culture and our lives are
improved by having tango a part of our culture (an
americanocentric view). Maybe we'll never get it
right, but at least there are places to dance tango
and instructors willing to teach it, and we're doing
our best to become better. The major concern I would
have is whether we are departing from the style and
feeling of Argentine tango (such as is done in the
absurd aberration known as 'ballroom' tango), but I
don't see that happening.
Mel Fox
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 13:50:48 -0300
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= A. Contreras" <jcontrer @CMET.NET>
Subject: A little survey...
Hello list !
I don't know if this issue has been treated here before, but since I am
member, I haven't seen it.
My question is : For the English speaking Tango community, what is
preferable : To keep the Spanish names of steps, figures, etc. or to
study and develop an English glossary ?
I know that both options have pro and against. I am Spanish native
speaking, so I feel very comfortable with Spanish names, but it sounds
strange for me this kind of "Spanglish" we see many times on Tango
postings.
I'd really like to hear some opinions... would you be so kind?
Saludos from Chile...
Jos=E9 A. Contreras
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:32:51 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity
Original Message-----
From: Melville Fox <moby_fox @yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, August 13, 2000 4:23 PM
>I don't think we should get all bent out of shape
>worrying about how 'authentic' we are.
How much of Piazzolla -- whose music
many elder argentines at home seem to have
found alienating and which many americans
on this list adore despite being repeatedly
told by elders it is not dance music is in
fact authentic 'new york' (he was there
until 13?), I wonder.
rajan.
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:05:59 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity
Mel,
You have hit the nail on the proverbial head. It is impossible for us here
and there in the USA and other parts of the world to dance *authentic*
argentine tango. Where are not in Bs As, there are no places to dance tango
every night and every day. There are no hundreds of portenios crowding the
floors in the milongas. There is no tango culture, no dozens of Argentinians
teaching tango. Very few places even have a bandoneon player, let alone
several complete tango orchestras playing different styles.
We must adapt, we do *our own thing*, not in the way we dance tango which we
do it as well as we can. We learn from the many fine teachers we seek out
where we live and even in Bs As where we go as often as we can. What we do
is create our own tango milieu and organize our own dances as we can. Even
New York or a few other places where there are more than a few weekly
milongas, is still not Bs As. The tango scene in these places is not like Bs
As, it is not *authentic*, but who cares? If what I want is total
authenticity, I'll move to Bs As and become a "milonguero". If OTOH, I want
to dance tango and enjoy myself, I'll do what I can to promote these
activities.
I think we have wonderful opportunities to dance and enjoy tango all over
the US. Thanks to Timmy tango, Victor Crichton, and many other hard working,
dedicated individuals, we've found tango in places as diverse as Cleveland
and Tampa. What is wrong with that? I've found tango (and friends) in Mexico
City, Manhattan, Miami, SF, Chicago, NYC, Cleveland and Tampa. There is
tango in many other places too. I hope to visit them and enjoy them. Through
the efforts of people like Roswell Pfister and Sarah Alvarez from Birminham,
Alabama we even took a tango show to Ole Miss!! The people there were very
appreciative and loved the tango.
Each day we see more and more people learning and dancing tango. I've seen
fabulous local dancers in several places in the USA. I've had the pleasure
to dance with many excellent tangueras from the USA and other parts of the
world, here in the USA as well as in other countries. We've taught tango to
many people over the past few years. Some dabble on it for a while and then
move on to other activities, but many others remain attracted to tango and
become very active in it.
I see a lot of good in the tango scene in the USA. I think that the growth
has been phenomenal over the last few years. I still remember how few tango
weeks there were. Stanford was about the only place in the USA where we
could get a tango week with all the trimmings! Now, there are tango seminars
and events all over the US. There is hardly any region of the country where
tango is not available. Almost all major cities have resident teachers and
periodic milongas.
Yes, there could be more tango in the US. I wish there was a place or two,
or three right here in Atlanta like the confiteria Ideal, or Sunderland, or
Toquato Tasso, but there are not. We are here and Bs As is there. What can
be done is to work together to propagate tango. And share it with everyone
who is interested.
Cheers,
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Melville Fox <moby_fox @YAHOO.COM>
> Very few North Americans will ever dance tango like
> it's done in Buenos Aires. They grow up with it,
> understand the lyrics and understand the emotions that
> are part of their culture. To us, it's an imported
> culture. If we're honest with ourselves, we North
> Americans will probably never have the requisite
> mental and emotional state to be 'authentic' However,
> I don't think we should get all bent out of shape
> worrying about how 'authentic' we are. If we
> constantly look over our shoulders at the observing
> Argentinos worrying about whether we're doing it
> right, we will seriously diminsh our enjoyment of the
> dance. I think the question to ask is not whether we
> are dancing 'authentic' tango (a argentinocentric
> view), but whether our culture and our lives are
> improved by having tango a part of our culture (an
> americanocentric view). Maybe we'll never get it
> right, but at least there are places to dance tango
> and instructors willing to teach it, and we're doing
> our best to become better. The major concern I would
> have is whether we are departing from the style and
> feeling of Argentine tango (such as is done in the
> absurd aberration known as 'ballroom' tango), but I
> don't see that happening.
>
> Mel Fox
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:16:56 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles
>
>**One thing that I am sure we could all agree about is that Milonguero and
>Salon are two completely different manners in which Argentine Tango may be
>danced.
>We all also agree about the terminology when it comes to Salon. The other
>style may be called with several terms Milonguero is one of them. Other
>names referring to the milonguero style are Club, Apilado, Confiteria, Close
>Embrace.
It was my impression (please correct me if I'm wrong) that in Europe,
"Salon Style" refers generically to close embrace. In the US it
generally means the more open, turning tango.
There is the also the issue of close-embrace vs milonguero. There are
many good teachers of close-embrace whom I wouldn't really call
teacers of milonguero style, for example Fernanda & Guillermo or
Daniela & Armando. Good teachers, good dancers, of close embrace, but
not really milonguero.
Then would you say that Julio & Corina are milonguero style or salon
style? They have had influence from many sources (as has everybody
these days), but their rhythm, drive and energy strike me as
milonguero, even when not dancing close-embrace. But here I am
starting to stretch your basic definition, which is:
Milonguero is chest-to-chest (I prefer heart-to-heart) with a
rhythmic drive and a frequent toc-toc-toc that fits Biagi or
D'Arienzo. Not to mention back ochos without much pivot in the feet
(or hips) and the use of the ocho cortado rather than froni ochos
with pivots.
Pugliese is not at all rhythmic like D'Arienzo, yet here is the most
sublime milonguero orchestra of them all!
>My experience is that most people in Buenos Aires call the style Milonguero.
>People refer to the way in which the chests are in contact as Apilado. My
>impression is that Milonguero style is rapidly growing in Argentina and
>abroad.
>
>I do not know who invented the Milonguero style. Could it be an spontaneous
>mutation? Tete and Susana Miller are the main instructors of that
>style. Did they isolated this form and became instructors of it?
>
>Most of the other great tango dancers and instructors in Argentina look down
>on the form Milonguero style. They think that it is a bastardized form; they
>use derision when referring to that style. They might even reach the level
>of ignoring its existence....
This is interesting!
If most of the tango dancers and instructors look down on milonguero,
then why is it having such a resurgence. Did Tete & Susana have so
many more students when compared with the other teachers?
>As to difficulty to learn. The main problem is to learn to dance in close
>embrace, leaning forward. The foot work is very easy to learn.
>Compare that, to learning enrosques, planeos, barridas, puente, cadenas,
>jumps, boleos, ganchos, amagues, etc.
>
> Finally yes, we are all talking about the same style that Tete and Susana
>Miller teach.
My eyes were opened watching Susana Miller teach. Maybe my eyes
needed maturing in order to become aware, but from her I first
noticed someone teaching the rhythmic toc-toc-toc with the kind of
feel you get in the older milongueros that hang out at Pavadita or
Almagro.
There were a few people who walked out of Susana's workshop, being
unable to see or understand that she was working on a deeper level.
(IT'S NOT IN THE STEPS!)
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:35:44 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles - Questions & answers -
Question about tango styles, I selected the most interesting ones:
>"The milonguero front ocho is often referred to as ocho cortado."
*You are correct.
>"Do you really classify enrosques, rulos, planeos, arrastres and
ganchos as salon tango? I would put them more in the realm of fantasy
tango. I know there are many social dancers who are quite good and
sometimes do these things, but do you really see them happening in
Buenos Aires in those clubs where salon is the predominant style?"
*The above mentioned techniques belong to tango Salon, they are used by most
of the good dancers.
(Puppy Costello - Nito and Elba - The Zottos - Cieri - Pugliese - Paiva -
etc.) . This moves are not done in crowded places; they are not usually
seen at certain social dances. You will not see certain figures that require
you to stop for a while either due to the fact that you are supposed to move
forward and avoid touching other couples.
Fantasia uses the same choreographic moves as in Salon including lifting of
the lady and jumps, all elements of tango Salon.
>" The Salon style (as you and I use it) has become very engrained in
the US. For example in LA which has a tremendous amount of influence
from Orlando Paiva is so completely salon style, that the ladies are
astonished if you do a milonguero rock-step. Most of the LA dancers
who have actually gone to BsAs don't go out to dance much there,
preferring to travel."
>"Even San Francisco which has a relatively mature community, dances
more salon than milonguero. It is a closer embrace with the lady off
to the leaders right side sort of like Dinzel...but then Nora
Dinzel-Backer has had a great influence along with Orlando Paiva."
*The instructors have a great influence in the tango style that is danced.
Nito and Orlando Paiva had great influence on the West Coast, also in Mar
del Plata (Nito) and Rosario ( Orlando).
The salon dancers should go to Sunderland or Sin Rumbo in Villa Urquiza.
District somewhat removed from downtown where that style is predominant.
*Milonguero has been initially taught only by Tete and by Susana Miller.
Their Milonguero is very close but not identical.
They have a frame that is practically nipple to nipple, this puts certain
limitation to the choreographic expression. Other Milonguero dancers have a
frame more like the one used by Orlando Paiva, the man's right nipple is
placed on the woman's sternum ( chest bone). This allows some more freedom
to execute a more varied choreography.
>"Now we have Fabian/Chicho/Metin presenting a lot of Gustavo material,
which is improvised, but really quite difficult for social dancers to
accomplish. Seattle has had Fabian for months at a time, and in
Washington, DC and even San Francisco you are now getting little
groups of people (often the better dancers) starting to practice that
stuff....fun, but is it "real" tango?"
*Nuevo Tango uses the same technique as classical salon style but has
emphasis in certain moves that are logical but rarely used by most dancers.
It is fun, I think that it is "real" tango. I personally feel that Classical
Salon (Osvaldo Zotto, Nito or O. Paiva) is more elegant. Gustavo is
considered to be an excellent tango dancer by even the masters. His style
should be worth of imitation.
When it comes to space available to dance, Milonguero is fit for very
crowded places, Salon has to adapt itself to be able to fit crowded floors,
it usually succeeds, Nuevo Tango seems to require an enormous amount of
space.
Original Message-----
From: Tom Stermitz [mailto:stermitz @csn.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 10:53 PM
To: SERGIO
Subject: Re: Description of tango Styles
>I received many notes asking questions about tango styles. The following
one
>could be a representative one.
>
>"Could you please define:
>
>1. Milonguero Style
>
>2. Salon Style
>...
The milonguero front ocho is often referred to as ocho cortado.
>Salon Style is the classical form learnt by most of us. Seven or eight
count
>base. Turns with sacadas, enrosques, dibujos, rulos, planeos, arrastres or
>barridas, ganchos, amagues y boleos, etc. Plus a very reach choreography of
>infinite figures. Danced with walk toe-heel in close or open embrace or a
>combination of both.
Do you really classify enrosques, rulos, planeos, arrastres and
ganchos as salon tango? I would put them more in the realm of fantasy
tango. I know there are many social dancers who are quite good and
sometimes do these things, but do you really see them happening in
Buenos Aires in those clubs where salon is the predominant style?
One confusion of terms is that in Europe, salon tango has taken on a
meaning of close-embrace rather than your definition, which is more
common in the US.
Another problem is that many teachers are now presenting a more close
embrace (Fernanda & Guillermo, Daniela & Armando) that I would really
call milonguero. It doesn't have that D'Arienzo toc-toc-toc.
F&G learned a lot from Copes, and D&A learned a lot from the Dinzels,
neither of whom are really "milonguero".
The Salon style (as you and I use it) has become very engrained in
the US. For example in LA which has a tremendous amount of influence
from Orlando Paiva is so completely salon style, that the ladies are
astonished if you do a milonguero rock-step. Most of the LA dancers
who have actually gone to BsAs don't go out to dance much there,
prefering to travel.
Even San Francisco which has a realatively mature community, dances
more salon than milonguero. It is a closer embrace with the lady off
to the leaders right side sort of like Dinzel...but then Nora
Dinzel-Backer has had a great influence along with Orlando Paiva.
The big lament is that Forever Tango had a long run in San Francisco,
Chicago, and New York, instilling a lot of fantasy vocabulary.
Now we have Fabian/Chicho/Metin presenting a lot of Gustavo material,
which is improvised, but really quite difficult for social dancers to
acomplish. Seattle has had Fabian for months at a time, and in
Washington, DC and even San Francisco you are now getting little
groups of people (often the better dancers) starting to practice that
stuff....fun, but is it "real" tango?
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 00:09:24 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: More on tango styles
A most interesting note just arrived, I am sharing it with you all.
Here are the comments.
>"It was my impression (please correct me if I'm wrong) that in Europe,
"Salon Style" refers generically to close embrace. In the US it
generally means the more open, turning tango."
*Salon Style may and should be danced in close embrace, the tango embrace -
el abrazo) chest to chest, cheek to cheek, all along or alternating with
some degree of separation to allow the execution of certain figures and
turns. It may also be danced in open frame allowing for great elegance and a
richer choreography (Osvaldo Zotto).
If the Europeans call Salon Style Close Embrace, what are they dancing?
Milonguero? If so how do they call the Salon Style?
>"There is the also the issue of close-embrace vs milonguero. There are
many good teachers of close-embrace whom I wouldn't really call
teacers of milonguero style, for example Fernanda & Guillermo or
Daniela & Armando. Good teachers, good dancers, of close embrace, but
not really milonguero."
* Fernanda and Guillermo dance Salon Style in close embrace. Daniela and
Armando dance their own version of what seems to be more like Milonguero
Style. Something similar may be observed in Eduardo Arquimbau.
>"But here I am
starting to stretch your basic definition, which is:
Milonguero is chest-to-chest (I prefer heart-to-heart) with a
rhythmic drive and a frequent toc-toc-toc that fits Biagi or
D'Arienzo. Not to mention back ochos without much pivot in the feet
(or hips) and the use of the ocho cortado rather than froni ochos
with pivots.
Pugliese is not at all rhythmic like D'Arienzo, yet here is the most
sublime milonguero orchestra of them all!"
>"This is interesting!
If most of the tango dancers and instructors look down on milonguero,
then why is it having such a resurgence. Did Tete & Susana have so
many more students when compared with the other teachers?"
* Please notice that I said "most of the other *great* tango dancers and
instructors look down on Milonguero.
Most common dancers do not share that opinion.
The fact is that Milonguero is much easier to learn than Salon. Lots of
people in Argentina learn without taking formal tango lessons. They learn
dancing with friends, who slowly teach them. Milonguero is regarding in the
sense that people can start dancing fairly soon and with feeling. Tete and
Susana had the geniality of noticing those elements.
>"My eyes were opened watching Susana Miller teach. Maybe my eyes
needed maturing in order to become aware, but from her I first
noticed someone teaching the rhythmic toc-toc-toc with the kind of
feel you get in the older milongueros that hang out at Pavadita or
Almagro.
There were a few people who walked out of Susana's workshop, being
unable to see or understand that she was working on a deeper level.
(IT'S NOT IN THE STEPS!)"
*I agree with you entirely, great spiritual satisfaction may be achieved
with less effort and in a much shorter time than with the classical salon
style. Then when you go out dancing in Buenos Aires there is no room to
express yourself with the salon choreography. Milonguero is superior in that
sense, but... lots of people are attracted to Argentine Tango due to its
complexity which is not present in Milonguero.I really enjoy dancing both
ways. I am able to obtain great spiritual satisfaction from both styles.
Each one should dance the way he/she likes the most.
The truth is that Milonguero is becoming so popular that even the great
Salon instructors are starting to include its moves in their routines. So
much for looking down on it.:)
End of TANGO-L Digest - 13 Aug 2000 to 14 Aug 2000 (#2000-219)
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