The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 9 Aug 2000
to 10 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 9 Aug 2000 to 10 Aug 2000 (#2000-215)
There are 11 messages totalling 701 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Recommended Tango Learning Video
2. Authenticity (2)
3. Tango Authenticity (2)
4. Instruction While Social Dancing (4)
5. Experience of men & couples visiting BsAs?
6. Idolatry - Milongueras
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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 00:07:32 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Recommended Tango Learning Video
Ever since I put my tango book on the Web in 1997, I have received one
or two inquiries a week from people who have read my book & want me to
recommend an introductory videotape. Since I am only interested in
tapes on advanced topics, I have had to suggest they read Steve Brown s
reviews on the Web & look at Daniel Trenner s Web site. Now I can
recommend one.
Ricardo & Nicole are from (respectively) Holland & Germany. In 1988
they gave up their jobs as an architect & a graphics designer & became
tango performers. You can find out the fascinating details of their
career at their Web site, which has lots of fast-downloading photos as
well as text. Here is their URL.
www.ricardonicole.com
Their tango course covers three tapes, each an hour long. They also
have a milonga tape that is one-and-a-half hours long.
The first thing you may notice is the high quality of video production.
Ever other tape I have ever seen had mediocre to poor lighting, camera
handling, editing, and image quality.
Even more impressive is the way they present each figure they teach.
First there is the usual way teachers present material on videos. There
are sequences shown from two angles, showing the man s and the woman s
part separately and together. There are also close-ups of significant
details, something I have seen elsewhere, but not often.
But Ricardo and Nicole are also seen from overhead (and slightly
behind). Then they are replaced by a graphic, a moving line that draws
the overall path of each of the two dancers; the man s and the woman s
path are a different color. Then another graphic is shown, of moving
feet that trace the figure. Finally, there is a narrator s voice and
Ricardo & Nicole s voices. Though reading from a script and cue cards,
they are expressive and give a feeling of warmth & their personality.
Their English is very good; North Americans will have no trouble
understanding them.
This multi-media presentation is important. Some students are visually
oriented, some verbally. Some people gain a lot from a diagram, others
don t. Presenting the same material in several ways increases the
chances that one of them will work. Also, there usually is a
synergistic reinforcement of two or more avenues of learning.
Another impressive feature of the narration is that both Ricardo and
Nicole are equal partners, with her giving useful information about the
woman s role. This a refreshing change from all those videos where the
woman is just a cute puppet, and little attention is paid to what she
needs to know.
Another good feature of the tapes is they do more than just present
figures. They talk about important body dynamics and elements of
leading & following, & show them, sometimes with graphics overlaying
the images and coordinated with them.
Ricardo & Nicole begin with the 8-step figure that many teachers use as
their basic figure. But they also emphasize that this is only a
teaching device, not something the leader mindlessly repeats. Then they
show several ways to dissect & re-use different parts of the basic. For
instance, you can drop the middle two steps so that the basic becomes a
6-step figure: the first part a U-shaped salida & an L-shaped
resolucion. Another example: you can change the resolucion by stepping
back on last step, making the resolucion into an upside-down U.
The first tape covers most of the important basic elements of dancing
tango. The next two cover intermediate & advanced material that every
dancer will want to know. If buyers get only the first tape, I think
they will want to quickly get the next two & the milonga tape as well.
It may be a while before the beginner can profit from trying to learn
the more advanced material, but even beginners will find it
entertaining & useful to see what they can look forward to eventually
learning.
The only negative of this tape is that Ricardo & Nicole are not
Argentine & aren t (yet) famous. Some of the potential tape buyers will
foolishly ignore these ground-breaking & valuable tapes for less useful
tapes by famous Argentines. And they will pay the cost in time &
frustration for that mistake.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:00:50 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Authenticity
(1) Argentines themselves don't agree what is "authentic." Some of them
get very angry & insulting about their fellow country(wo)men on this
subject. "Authentic" just means "the kind of tango I like."
(2) If someone is handsome/beautiful, rich, charming, & famous (or even
1 out of 4) they can dance with just about anyone they want in Argentina
- or anywhere else.
(3) Argentines have the same proportions of terrible/OK/good/terrific
tango dancers as anywhere else. Just being Argentine is no guarantee
that anyone is a good dancer.
(4) If the "soul of the tango" includes "being emotionally expressive"
Argentines have no monopoly on this. If anything, older Argentines may
suffer more from "coldness" because their political history made paranoia
not insanity but a grimly realistic necessity. And there is abundant
evidence that being outspoken in Argentina today is still dangerous.
Larry de Los Angeles
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:36:10 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity
Tom Stermitz wrote:
> What the heck is going on with tango in the US!
>
It would seem this never being truly there -- at
home, i.e., angst, is perhaps the only emotional
requirement for true tango. As long as one is
asking such questions, may be the tango is authentic.
On recent occassions when I have had opportunity
to dance with americans(ex. from DC, NY...), I liked
it -- whether it was authentic or not.
But in the quote, in your next post, (Lidia Ferrari):
"Everyone moved to the rhythm of the music, and had a feeling
for tango, so they could dance it. But the good dancers stood
out because they were the few, I would say, who submitted
themselves to the structure of the dance and were thus able
to remake it and experiment with it from the inside."
So, in a place where everyone had the right emotion, descipline
seems to have mattered. Though I wonder what does she exactly mean.
rajan.
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 08:45:15 -0400
From: rtara <rtara @MAINE.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Authenticity
I can=B9t help thinking that in the 30=B9s and 40=B9s in the US, people learned t=
o
dance foxtrot and jitterbug by going out to dances and listening to the
music and watching other dancers. Maybe they tried it out with a friend in
the privacy of their homes.
If you go to a dance in any Eagles, Elks or other social club in this
country today, you will see people from their 60=B9s through their 80=B9s
dancing waltz, foxtrot and swing. The dances you see being danced socially
will bear little resemblance to the same dances as taught by ballroom
dancing instructors. Each couple you see will have their own unique style
and little signature moves they have developed on their own or learned by
watching the other dancers. What makes some of them great dancers and other=
s
mediocre? My guess is that the great dancers have a better feeling for the
music, more physical coordination and most importantly, a greater desire to
dance well and learn.
What all these dancers have in common is the joy they find in moving
together to music. They usually don=B9t have a lot of fancy footwork, but the=
y
are dancing to express their delight in the music. Although their steps
aren=B9t all the same, foxtrot will still have the essence of foxtrot and
swing will still have the essence of swing. They are dancing in order to
socialize, so there is communication and cooperation with their partners.
From all the stories I have heard from the older milongueros, it sounds as
if that=B9s the same way people learned tango in Buenos Aires in the 30=B9s and
40=B9s.=20
Last week I had an interesting experience. A local restauranteur invited
about 30 people to his little bistro after a flamenco/tango show. He asked
me to bring some tango music. No one there but I had ever danced Argentine
tango and only one man was a ballroom dancer. He is one of those natural
dancers who can intuit the essence of any music and dance to it. So he and =
I
danced a "tango". He led in the spirit of the music and I made my moves in
response to his look like tango. It worked. We each brought other people ou=
t
to dance and by the end of the evening, all the people there were dancing t=
o
tango music. Were they dancing tango? I don=B9t know for sure. But I do know
they were listening to the music, coordinating their movements to the
rhythms, and dancing together with a real delight in themselves and each
other.
I just sat back and marveled. This could be a whole new approach to the
teaching of tango or any other social dance. Put a bunch of people in a
comfortable friendly environment, bring in a couple of people who dance
well, pour some wine, share some food, put on some music and dance. I
believe that if these same people got together once a week, pretty soon
their dancing would look and feel like tango.
Robin tara
Tara Tango Shoes
www.22tangoshoes.com
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:09:26 -0500
From: Korey Ireland <korey @KODAIR.COM>
Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing
FWIW,
When I began dancing tango I was fortunate to be exposed to some wonderful dancers who were
quick to point out things I could improve. I'm sure there is a point where this helpfulness
becomes intrusive and a disruption to the experience, but for myself, I'm very grateful to
those who offered suggestions, advice, even friendly criticism. Ultimately, I trust that
their intentions were to improve the dance experience for us both. Just one more thought:
this type of interaction is perfectly suited to practicas, which again I have found essential
to my development as a dancer. The feedback and suggestions from one's partner is a great
learning tool. Perhaps more appropriate in a practica then in a milonga, but for myself, I
welcome it at any time.
Of course, Marilyn, your comments are well taken, and perhaps we can all be more sensitive in
our rush to dispense pearls of tango wisdom on the dance floor, knowing that some people
prefer to enjoy the dance on its own, not as a tutorial.
regards,
Korey Ireland
>
>
> However, my experience has been, that comments come
> from poorer partners, who have an inflated view of
> their own tango ability. Having been a ballroom and
> social dance teacher for many years,I am troubled by
> this apparent rudeness.
>
> Wouldn't it be better if we all just danced at
> milongas, and left instruction to the experts
> in the classroom? Why can't we be more generous
> with whomever we dance?
>
--
*************************************
Korey Ireland
Composer
Wheeler Audio Associates
4024 State Line Rd.
Kansas City, KS 66103
(913) 362-2500 fax (913) 362-2575
http://www.kodair.com
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:38:02 -0600
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Experience of men & couples visiting BsAs?
I am a recent subscriber. My husband & I have been dancing just two years
now. We are in Albuquerque, New Mexico & dance/study with the Albuquerque &
Santa Fe tango communities.
We have not been to BsAs (yet). There have been several postings discussing
the experience of women visiting/dancing in BsAs, but I have not noticed any
recent postings re the observations of visiting men or couples. What are
your experiences? I am especially interested in the experience of couples
who've traveled without a tour group, but all responses are welcome.
In conversation with a girlfriend who visited BsAs this past spring, I mused
that since I've had heard/read that a woman accompanied by a man will not be
asked to dance,I would travel there with a girlfriend. Why would I go to
BsAs to sit & watch my husband dance with other women? (I can do that here
if it is my choice.) Her reply was surprising to me. She said I would be the
one dancing with all those gracious & romantic men, while my husband sat
watching! She was there with her regular dance partner & this had been their
experience. They are both (IMO) sensitive dancers with great musicality. She
said that no "respectable Argentine woman" (smiley face) would accept a
dance with a man to whom she had not been previously introduced. Her
partner's luck improved after he went out with a group of young milongueros
& they introduced him to their women friends.
So I wonder when I read Tom Stermitz saying: As most men who have visited
Argentina also know, it is difficult to earn a dance with the ladies;
sometimes it seems like you are wearing a big sign saying "WARNING! GRINGO."
Could this be a case of mistaking cultural differences for a negative
judgement of dancing ability?
Re authenticity, here is a portion of something I posted with our local
tango e-group:
...the whole thing reminded me of an article in the New Yorker some years
back about architectural restrictions in Santa Fe, what colors could be used
for trim paint, what styles of roofs, and how various
neighbors/neighborhoods resorted to lawsuits to deal with perceived
violations among each other. A native Santa Fean was quoted (something to
the effect) that this was all about a bunch of anglos/gringos arguing about
how Spanish they are. Well, sometimes it feels that way in the tango world
too. My point is that we really shouldn't need to claim some form of
superiority by putting down each others'
communities/efforts/workshops/styles. In fact what would be truly pompous is
to do so regarding, what is for the majority of us, appropriated culture.
This is not meant to discourage discussions of controversial tango subjects,
style preferences, etc. just to say that we don't need to insult someone
else in the process. Then again some of us may be easily insulted ;-)...
We are dancing where we are dancing. For some us dancing in BsAs will be
some test/culmination/ affirmation of our dancing experience. For others it
will be another part of the whole. And some of us will never get there. My
preferred partners (anywhere in the world) will be those whose sense of the
music & of the immediate connection between us touches my own, while
respecting the dancers with whom we are sharing the floor. They also choose
to devote their time to cultivating these qualities. The specific steps,
style, technique, "authenticity" are less important.
Karen in Albuquerque
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 08:59:32 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing
As a new dancer, it is important to me that leaders
distinguish between the etiquette of social dancing
and that of the classroom - and do not hesitate to
speak up about any issue of style and following while
in class. I am extremely grateful for advice given in
classes, and I wish that all of the leaders I dance
with in class would give me feedback, hints, and tips.
[I am a grown up and I promise I will consider
whether I think the advice is good before I take it.
;-) ].
Ours is a smallish tango community and there is no
separate instruction for people who have had only a
couple months worth of classes. There is the
beginning class, and then there is a more advanced
class which includes people who have been dancing from
two months to ten years. It's pretty lonely in there
if you're the guy who's been dancing two/three months,
I can tell you, and there are very few people at that
stage (perhaps because it is so thoroughly a
sink-or-swim experience). In effect, one dances for
six weeks with people who are equally clueless, then
moves into a class where many of the people are quite
accomplished, and most can get around the floor. You
would think that this would be ideal, but in fact what
I've found is that some of the more experienced
leaders are inclined to lead and if you can't follow,
they don't have anything to say and the next time you
come around there is an attitude of resignation and
still no information, even if you ask for help. On my
second day in the more advanced section, I told the
leader I was with that I was having trouble
understanding the leads, and he shoved me around a
while, then snapped, "Well, you understand the ocho,
don't you?" The fact is that although I had been
taught front ochos, three weeks before, I had never
before felt them led by someone who had been dancing
more than six weeks - how would I recognize the lead?
(Leaaving aside the question of whether I could
execute them well.)
In all fairness, there are some leaders who have
suggested that I make changes in my balance, who have
led the same move repeatedly until I caught on, who
have told me when I moved or shifted my weight without
being led. I am very grateful to these people, and I
sincerely hope to improve so that I can be the type of
dancer they enjoy dancing with. I hope also, by
dancing attentively, that I am giving them useful
information about their leads so that they can
improve. In the same vein, when I dance with a leader
who is having trouble if I think I understand what the
problem is, I ask if he would like to hear my
observation about it.
I hope I find as I continue dancing that there are
many leaders who do not confuse the practice room with
the dance floor. I understand from other social
dancing the pleasures of leading and following
smoothly with a partner of roughly equivalent skill.
But when one is in a class, where everyone has
presumably enrolled to improve their dancing, it is
not necessary to strive for those moments of perfect
wordless communication; it is sufficient to try to
learn to dance better and to do what one can to help
the other people in the class too.
With hope,
Marisa
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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:19:45 -0400
From: michael ditkoff <tangomaniac @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing
Marisa:
First, where is your "smallish tango community?"
Last month I went to Tango Locura in Montreal, hosted by Daniel Trenner. He
practices the "lead and follow" school of tango. He says that dancers learn
tango 10X faster when they learn both sides of the dance.
I suggest that because your community is so small, that everybody (or as
many as possible) learn leading AND following. The man you referenced in
your message who shoved you around to execute ochos, doesn't have a clue how
to lead ochos. Force is the never the answer to leading. If he had to follow
a man who lead ochos just as badly as he did, he would quickly learn that
women are NOT to be shoved around the floor.
One of my problems wasn't waiting for the women to pivot in the middle of
the ochos. I was taking my side step before the woman finished her turn.
After a woman led me in ochos and didn't wait for me, my eyes opened to the
words of my teacher WAIT FOR THE WOMAN!! That man needs to learn the same
lesson.
Michael
Washington, DC
Original Message------
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes @YAHOO.COM>
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sent: August 9, 2000 3:59:32 PM GMT
Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing
Ours is a smallish tango community and there is no
separate instruction for people who have had only a
couple months worth of classes. There is the
beginning class, and then there is a more advanced
class which includes people who have been dancing from
two months to ten years. "On my second day in the more advanced section, I
told the leader I was with that I was having trouble
understanding the leads, and he shoved me around a
while, then snapped, "Well, you understand the ocho,
don't you?"
With hope,
Marisa
__________________________________________________
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Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:44:49 -0400
From: monaloca <monaloca @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity
Tom Stermitz asks: "What the heck is going on with tango in the US! ... I
am struck by the degree to which N. Americans do NOT dance tango like they
do in Argentina... What is `real Tango' and what is `authentic?'. Why is it
so hard to learn authenticity?"
I've come to believe that "milonguero" and "salon" are not just two
different styles of tango, but rather two entirely different dances that
share the same music and step patterns. The former is usually danced in
close embrace, and the latter often in open embrace, but what distinguishes
them is not the embrace; it's a fundamental difference in partnering
technique and sensibility. "Salon" danced in close embrace may look like
"milonguero", but it's not And vice versa. (Tete's vals video includes an
extraordinary sample of milonguero dancing in a wide-open practice hold.)
Whatever the embrace, if one partner is following "milonguero" partnering
technique and the other "salon", the result will be unsatisfying to both
partners -- and physically uncomfortable for at least one of them. In close
embrace, the experience may prejudice them against the milonguero style. In
open embrace, they will probably conclude that poor technique is the problem
(their partner's technique, of course!)
This might help explain why the American tango community seems to, as Tom
noted, reap disappointing results, in spite of all our efforts. It could
also explain why tango dancers tend to be so vehement in their preference
for one "style" or the other. Imagine a swing dance attended by East Coast
Swing and West Coast Swing dancers who had been taught that "swing is swing,
and these are just two styles of swing"!
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:02:38 -0700
From: Randy Garrou <randygarrou @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing
Very well put. I couldn't agree more.
In the class setting, two way communication should always be heartily
encouraged, not condemned.
Original Message-----
From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
[mailto:TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Marisa Holmes
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 9:00 AM
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing
As a new dancer, it is important to me that leaders
distinguish between the etiquette of social dancing
and that of the classroom - and do not hesitate to
speak up about any issue of style and following while
in class. I am extremely grateful for advice given in
classes, and I wish that all of the leaders I dance
with in class would give me feedback, hints, and tips.
[I am a grown up and I promise I will consider
whether I think the advice is good before I take it.
;-) ].
Ours is a smallish tango community and there is no
separate instruction for people who have had only a
couple months worth of classes. There is the
beginning class, and then there is a more advanced
class which includes people who have been dancing from
two months to ten years. It's pretty lonely in there
if you're the guy who's been dancing two/three months,
I can tell you, and there are very few people at that
stage (perhaps because it is so thoroughly a
sink-or-swim experience). In effect, one dances for
six weeks with people who are equally clueless, then
moves into a class where many of the people are quite
accomplished, and most can get around the floor. You
would think that this would be ideal, but in fact what
I've found is that some of the more experienced
leaders are inclined to lead and if you can't follow,
they don't have anything to say and the next time you
come around there is an attitude of resignation and
still no information, even if you ask for help. On my
second day in the more advanced section, I told the
leader I was with that I was having trouble
understanding the leads, and he shoved me around a
while, then snapped, "Well, you understand the ocho,
don't you?" The fact is that although I had been
taught front ochos, three weeks before, I had never
before felt them led by someone who had been dancing
more than six weeks - how would I recognize the lead?
(Leaaving aside the question of whether I could
execute them well.)
In all fairness, there are some leaders who have
suggested that I make changes in my balance, who have
led the same move repeatedly until I caught on, who
have told me when I moved or shifted my weight without
being led. I am very grateful to these people, and I
sincerely hope to improve so that I can be the type of
dancer they enjoy dancing with. I hope also, by
dancing attentively, that I am giving them useful
information about their leads so that they can
improve. In the same vein, when I dance with a leader
who is having trouble if I think I understand what the
problem is, I ask if he would like to hear my
observation about it.
I hope I find as I continue dancing that there are
many leaders who do not confuse the practice room with
the dance floor. I understand from other social
dancing the pleasures of leading and following
smoothly with a partner of roughly equivalent skill.
But when one is in a class, where everyone has
presumably enrolled to improve their dancing, it is
not necessary to strive for those moments of perfect
wordless communication; it is sufficient to try to
learn to dance better and to do what one can to help
the other people in the class too.
With hope,
Marisa
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 21:03:27 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Idolatry - Milongueras
The attitude of some men toward the milongueras who live in Argentina
is both funny & sad. For them every woman at the milongas there is a
goddess. These men wait in agony for the milongueras to accept them,
to give them a sign that all their years of work have bourne fruit &
made them worthy, to recognize that their tango is "authentic".
This attitude demeans these women. It lumps them all together, labels
them clones, ignores their individuality, puts them on a pedestal like
those frozen white stone statues that have no humanity.
So what happens when a real milonguera accepts the invitation one of
these men to dance? Each & every one of these women is unique, none
perfect, each with her own weaknesses & strengths, even the best of
them.
Let's suppose she is no spectacular trophy-beautiful woman. But she
has spent much time picking her clothes & fixing herself up & feels
comfortable with the way she looks. She loves to dance & has done it
for decades but she has never gotten very good. She knows she just
wasn't born with the talent, that her embrace is unsure, her steps a
trifle wobbly, her reaction time a touch too slow. And maybe she
hasn't the time even if she does have the talent to practice her
dancing. She is the sole support for her family, has to work two
part-time jobs to make ends meet, & still has to take care of the
children. But so what if she's not a famous actress or professional
tanguera? By God, it's Thursday night, the only night she has free, &
she's going to forget all her problems & have a good time!
Halfway through the evening she sees this tourist. He was here last
week, danced with no one, has been here tonight from opening time, has
been turned down by every woman he's asked, he doesn't know how to ask
the right way, he's looking pretty forlorn. She lets him know she will
dance with him, they embrace & dance, she does her very best, she's
proud of herself. But after a couple of dances she senses he's
disappointed. He's tried some things that didn't work, he's begun to
feel her limits, the dance isn't the supernal religious experience he
expected. The woman is only ordinary, not a goddess, the goddesses
have evaded him again. He finishes the obligatory five dances of the
tanda & thanks her but she can see his heart isn't in his thanks. He
goes back to his table, says something to his friends, they laugh. Are
they laughing about her?
Once this would have hurt her, when she was a girl, before she had to
deal with wounds of the heart so much more terrible than the tiny
pin-scratch of a stranger's disdain. But she remembers other tourists
more gracious, more interesting, such as the one who answered her
interest with a glad step & a warm smile & eyes that saw HER, not some
icon. Who took her gently in his arms & cherished her by adjusting
that embrace till the two of them fit just right. Who heard the music,
listened to her body language, moved simply, pushing but never
exceeding the boundaries of what she could do, who explored &
exploited what she COULD do. Who understood that in slow dances her
wobbly steps picked up assurance & grace, that she knew this music &
never wandered from the beat. Who felt the joy she radiated as they
became acquainted with one another. Who left her at the end of the
tanda with something said in a language that was totally
incomprehensible but with a smile that needed no translation.
So She waits still, alert for the next man who is a real man, not a
star-struck boy of whatever age: the Goddess in Disguise.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
End of TANGO-L Digest - 9 Aug 2000 to 10 Aug 2000 (#2000-215)
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