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Digest from 9 Aug 2000 to 10 Aug 2000





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Subject:  TANGO-L Digest - 9 Aug 2000 to 10 Aug 2000 (#2000-215)

There are 11 messages totalling 701 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Recommended Tango Learning Video 2. Authenticity (2) 3. Tango Authenticity (2) 4. Instruction While Social Dancing (4) 5. Experience of men & couples visiting BsAs? 6. Idolatry - Milongueras


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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 00:07:32 +0000 From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM> Subject: Recommended Tango Learning Video Ever since I put my tango book on the Web in 1997, I have received one or two inquiries a week from people who have read my book & want me to recommend an introductory videotape. Since I am only interested in tapes on advanced topics, I have had to suggest they read Steve Brown s reviews on the Web & look at Daniel Trenner s Web site. Now I can recommend one. Ricardo & Nicole are from (respectively) Holland & Germany. In 1988 they gave up their jobs as an architect & a graphics designer & became tango performers. You can find out the fascinating details of their career at their Web site, which has lots of fast-downloading photos as well as text. Here is their URL. www.ricardonicole.com Their tango course covers three tapes, each an hour long. They also have a milonga tape that is one-and-a-half hours long. The first thing you may notice is the high quality of video production. Ever other tape I have ever seen had mediocre to poor lighting, camera handling, editing, and image quality. Even more impressive is the way they present each figure they teach. First there is the usual way teachers present material on videos. There are sequences shown from two angles, showing the man s and the woman s part separately and together. There are also close-ups of significant details, something I have seen elsewhere, but not often. But Ricardo and Nicole are also seen from overhead (and slightly behind). Then they are replaced by a graphic, a moving line that draws the overall path of each of the two dancers; the man s and the woman s path are a different color. Then another graphic is shown, of moving feet that trace the figure. Finally, there is a narrator s voice and Ricardo & Nicole s voices. Though reading from a script and cue cards, they are expressive and give a feeling of warmth & their personality. Their English is very good; North Americans will have no trouble understanding them. This multi-media presentation is important. Some students are visually oriented, some verbally. Some people gain a lot from a diagram, others don t. Presenting the same material in several ways increases the chances that one of them will work. Also, there usually is a synergistic reinforcement of two or more avenues of learning. Another impressive feature of the narration is that both Ricardo and Nicole are equal partners, with her giving useful information about the woman s role. This a refreshing change from all those videos where the woman is just a cute puppet, and little attention is paid to what she needs to know. Another good feature of the tapes is they do more than just present figures. They talk about important body dynamics and elements of leading & following, & show them, sometimes with graphics overlaying the images and coordinated with them. Ricardo & Nicole begin with the 8-step figure that many teachers use as their basic figure. But they also emphasize that this is only a teaching device, not something the leader mindlessly repeats. Then they show several ways to dissect & re-use different parts of the basic. For instance, you can drop the middle two steps so that the basic becomes a 6-step figure: the first part a U-shaped salida & an L-shaped resolucion. Another example: you can change the resolucion by stepping back on last step, making the resolucion into an upside-down U. The first tape covers most of the important basic elements of dancing tango. The next two cover intermediate & advanced material that every dancer will want to know. If buyers get only the first tape, I think they will want to quickly get the next two & the milonga tape as well. It may be a while before the beginner can profit from trying to learn the more advanced material, but even beginners will find it entertaining & useful to see what they can look forward to eventually learning. The only negative of this tape is that Ricardo & Nicole are not Argentine & aren t (yet) famous. Some of the potential tape buyers will foolishly ignore these ground-breaking & valuable tapes for less useful tapes by famous Argentines. And they will pay the cost in time & frustration for that mistake. Larry de Los Angeles http://home.att.net/~larrydla ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:00:50 +0000 From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM> Subject: Authenticity (1) Argentines themselves don't agree what is "authentic." Some of them get very angry & insulting about their fellow country(wo)men on this subject. "Authentic" just means "the kind of tango I like." (2) If someone is handsome/beautiful, rich, charming, & famous (or even 1 out of 4) they can dance with just about anyone they want in Argentina - or anywhere else. (3) Argentines have the same proportions of terrible/OK/good/terrific tango dancers as anywhere else. Just being Argentine is no guarantee that anyone is a good dancer. (4) If the "soul of the tango" includes "being emotionally expressive" Argentines have no monopoly on this. If anything, older Argentines may suffer more from "coldness" because their political history made paranoia not insanity but a grimly realistic necessity. And there is abundant evidence that being outspoken in Argentina today is still dangerous. Larry de Los Angeles ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:36:10 +0200 From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity Tom Stermitz wrote: > What the heck is going on with tango in the US! > It would seem this never being truly there -- at home, i.e., angst, is perhaps the only emotional requirement for true tango. As long as one is asking such questions, may be the tango is authentic. On recent occassions when I have had opportunity to dance with americans(ex. from DC, NY...), I liked it -- whether it was authentic or not. But in the quote, in your next post, (Lidia Ferrari): "Everyone moved to the rhythm of the music, and had a feeling for tango, so they could dance it. But the good dancers stood out because they were the few, I would say, who submitted themselves to the structure of the dance and were thus able to remake it and experiment with it from the inside." So, in a place where everyone had the right emotion, descipline seems to have mattered. Though I wonder what does she exactly mean. rajan.


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 08:45:15 -0400 From: rtara <rtara @MAINE.RR.COM> Subject: Re: Authenticity I can=B9t help thinking that in the 30=B9s and 40=B9s in the US, people learned t= o dance foxtrot and jitterbug by going out to dances and listening to the music and watching other dancers. Maybe they tried it out with a friend in the privacy of their homes. If you go to a dance in any Eagles, Elks or other social club in this country today, you will see people from their 60=B9s through their 80=B9s dancing waltz, foxtrot and swing. The dances you see being danced socially will bear little resemblance to the same dances as taught by ballroom dancing instructors. Each couple you see will have their own unique style and little signature moves they have developed on their own or learned by watching the other dancers. What makes some of them great dancers and other= s mediocre? My guess is that the great dancers have a better feeling for the music, more physical coordination and most importantly, a greater desire to dance well and learn. What all these dancers have in common is the joy they find in moving together to music. They usually don=B9t have a lot of fancy footwork, but the= y are dancing to express their delight in the music. Although their steps aren=B9t all the same, foxtrot will still have the essence of foxtrot and swing will still have the essence of swing. They are dancing in order to socialize, so there is communication and cooperation with their partners. From all the stories I have heard from the older milongueros, it sounds as if that=B9s the same way people learned tango in Buenos Aires in the 30=B9s and 40=B9s.=20 Last week I had an interesting experience. A local restauranteur invited about 30 people to his little bistro after a flamenco/tango show. He asked me to bring some tango music. No one there but I had ever danced Argentine tango and only one man was a ballroom dancer. He is one of those natural dancers who can intuit the essence of any music and dance to it. So he and = I danced a "tango". He led in the spirit of the music and I made my moves in response to his look like tango. It worked. We each brought other people ou= t to dance and by the end of the evening, all the people there were dancing t= o tango music. Were they dancing tango? I don=B9t know for sure. But I do know they were listening to the music, coordinating their movements to the rhythms, and dancing together with a real delight in themselves and each other. I just sat back and marveled. This could be a whole new approach to the teaching of tango or any other social dance. Put a bunch of people in a comfortable friendly environment, bring in a couple of people who dance well, pour some wine, share some food, put on some music and dance. I believe that if these same people got together once a week, pretty soon their dancing would look and feel like tango. Robin tara Tara Tango Shoes www.22tangoshoes.com


Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:09:26 -0500 From: Korey Ireland <korey @KODAIR.COM> Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing FWIW, When I began dancing tango I was fortunate to be exposed to some wonderful dancers who were quick to point out things I could improve. I'm sure there is a point where this helpfulness becomes intrusive and a disruption to the experience, but for myself, I'm very grateful to those who offered suggestions, advice, even friendly criticism. Ultimately, I trust that their intentions were to improve the dance experience for us both. Just one more thought: this type of interaction is perfectly suited to practicas, which again I have found essential to my development as a dancer. The feedback and suggestions from one's partner is a great learning tool. Perhaps more appropriate in a practica then in a milonga, but for myself, I welcome it at any time. Of course, Marilyn, your comments are well taken, and perhaps we can all be more sensitive in our rush to dispense pearls of tango wisdom on the dance floor, knowing that some people prefer to enjoy the dance on its own, not as a tutorial. regards, Korey Ireland > > > However, my experience has been, that comments come > from poorer partners, who have an inflated view of > their own tango ability. Having been a ballroom and > social dance teacher for many years,I am troubled by > this apparent rudeness. > > Wouldn't it be better if we all just danced at > milongas, and left instruction to the experts > in the classroom? Why can't we be more generous > with whomever we dance? > -- ************************************* Korey Ireland Composer Wheeler Audio Associates 4024 State Line Rd. Kansas City, KS 66103 (913) 362-2500 fax (913) 362-2575 http://www.kodair.com


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:38:02 -0600 From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren @EARTHLINK.NET> Subject: Experience of men & couples visiting BsAs? I am a recent subscriber. My husband & I have been dancing just two years now. We are in Albuquerque, New Mexico & dance/study with the Albuquerque & Santa Fe tango communities. We have not been to BsAs (yet). There have been several postings discussing the experience of women visiting/dancing in BsAs, but I have not noticed any recent postings re the observations of visiting men or couples. What are your experiences? I am especially interested in the experience of couples who've traveled without a tour group, but all responses are welcome. In conversation with a girlfriend who visited BsAs this past spring, I mused that since I've had heard/read that a woman accompanied by a man will not be asked to dance,I would travel there with a girlfriend. Why would I go to BsAs to sit & watch my husband dance with other women? (I can do that here if it is my choice.) Her reply was surprising to me. She said I would be the one dancing with all those gracious & romantic men, while my husband sat watching! She was there with her regular dance partner & this had been their experience. They are both (IMO) sensitive dancers with great musicality. She said that no "respectable Argentine woman" (smiley face) would accept a dance with a man to whom she had not been previously introduced. Her partner's luck improved after he went out with a group of young milongueros & they introduced him to their women friends. So I wonder when I read Tom Stermitz saying: As most men who have visited Argentina also know, it is difficult to earn a dance with the ladies; sometimes it seems like you are wearing a big sign saying "WARNING! GRINGO." Could this be a case of mistaking cultural differences for a negative judgement of dancing ability? Re authenticity, here is a portion of something I posted with our local tango e-group: ...the whole thing reminded me of an article in the New Yorker some years back about architectural restrictions in Santa Fe, what colors could be used for trim paint, what styles of roofs, and how various neighbors/neighborhoods resorted to lawsuits to deal with perceived violations among each other. A native Santa Fean was quoted (something to the effect) that this was all about a bunch of anglos/gringos arguing about how Spanish they are. Well, sometimes it feels that way in the tango world too. My point is that we really shouldn't need to claim some form of superiority by putting down each others' communities/efforts/workshops/styles. In fact what would be truly pompous is to do so regarding, what is for the majority of us, appropriated culture. This is not meant to discourage discussions of controversial tango subjects, style preferences, etc. just to say that we don't need to insult someone else in the process. Then again some of us may be easily insulted ;-)... We are dancing where we are dancing. For some us dancing in BsAs will be some test/culmination/ affirmation of our dancing experience. For others it will be another part of the whole. And some of us will never get there. My preferred partners (anywhere in the world) will be those whose sense of the music & of the immediate connection between us touches my own, while respecting the dancers with whom we are sharing the floor. They also choose to devote their time to cultivating these qualities. The specific steps, style, technique, "authenticity" are less important. Karen in Albuquerque


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 08:59:32 -0700 From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes @YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing As a new dancer, it is important to me that leaders distinguish between the etiquette of social dancing and that of the classroom - and do not hesitate to speak up about any issue of style and following while in class. I am extremely grateful for advice given in classes, and I wish that all of the leaders I dance with in class would give me feedback, hints, and tips. [I am a grown up and I promise I will consider whether I think the advice is good before I take it. ;-) ]. Ours is a smallish tango community and there is no separate instruction for people who have had only a couple months worth of classes. There is the beginning class, and then there is a more advanced class which includes people who have been dancing from two months to ten years. It's pretty lonely in there if you're the guy who's been dancing two/three months, I can tell you, and there are very few people at that stage (perhaps because it is so thoroughly a sink-or-swim experience). In effect, one dances for six weeks with people who are equally clueless, then moves into a class where many of the people are quite accomplished, and most can get around the floor. You would think that this would be ideal, but in fact what I've found is that some of the more experienced leaders are inclined to lead and if you can't follow, they don't have anything to say and the next time you come around there is an attitude of resignation and still no information, even if you ask for help. On my second day in the more advanced section, I told the leader I was with that I was having trouble understanding the leads, and he shoved me around a while, then snapped, "Well, you understand the ocho, don't you?" The fact is that although I had been taught front ochos, three weeks before, I had never before felt them led by someone who had been dancing more than six weeks - how would I recognize the lead? (Leaaving aside the question of whether I could execute them well.) In all fairness, there are some leaders who have suggested that I make changes in my balance, who have led the same move repeatedly until I caught on, who have told me when I moved or shifted my weight without being led. I am very grateful to these people, and I sincerely hope to improve so that I can be the type of dancer they enjoy dancing with. I hope also, by dancing attentively, that I am giving them useful information about their leads so that they can improve. In the same vein, when I dance with a leader who is having trouble if I think I understand what the problem is, I ask if he would like to hear my observation about it. I hope I find as I continue dancing that there are many leaders who do not confuse the practice room with the dance floor. I understand from other social dancing the pleasures of leading and following smoothly with a partner of roughly equivalent skill. But when one is in a class, where everyone has presumably enrolled to improve their dancing, it is not necessary to strive for those moments of perfect wordless communication; it is sufficient to try to learn to dance better and to do what one can to help the other people in the class too. With hope, Marisa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:19:45 -0400 From: michael ditkoff <tangomaniac @JUNO.COM> Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing Marisa: First, where is your "smallish tango community?" Last month I went to Tango Locura in Montreal, hosted by Daniel Trenner. He practices the "lead and follow" school of tango. He says that dancers learn tango 10X faster when they learn both sides of the dance. I suggest that because your community is so small, that everybody (or as many as possible) learn leading AND following. The man you referenced in your message who shoved you around to execute ochos, doesn't have a clue how to lead ochos. Force is the never the answer to leading. If he had to follow a man who lead ochos just as badly as he did, he would quickly learn that women are NOT to be shoved around the floor. One of my problems wasn't waiting for the women to pivot in the middle of the ochos. I was taking my side step before the woman finished her turn. After a woman led me in ochos and didn't wait for me, my eyes opened to the words of my teacher WAIT FOR THE WOMAN!! That man needs to learn the same lesson. Michael Washington, DC


Original Message------ From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes @YAHOO.COM> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU Sent: August 9, 2000 3:59:32 PM GMT Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing Ours is a smallish tango community and there is no separate instruction for people who have had only a couple months worth of classes. There is the beginning class, and then there is a more advanced class which includes people who have been dancing from two months to ten years. "On my second day in the more advanced section, I told the leader I was with that I was having trouble understanding the leads, and he shoved me around a while, then snapped, "Well, you understand the ocho, don't you?" With hope, Marisa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:44:49 -0400 From: monaloca <monaloca @EMAIL.MSN.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity Tom Stermitz asks: "What the heck is going on with tango in the US! ... I am struck by the degree to which N. Americans do NOT dance tango like they do in Argentina... What is `real Tango' and what is `authentic?'. Why is it so hard to learn authenticity?" I've come to believe that "milonguero" and "salon" are not just two different styles of tango, but rather two entirely different dances that share the same music and step patterns. The former is usually danced in close embrace, and the latter often in open embrace, but what distinguishes them is not the embrace; it's a fundamental difference in partnering technique and sensibility. "Salon" danced in close embrace may look like "milonguero", but it's not And vice versa. (Tete's vals video includes an extraordinary sample of milonguero dancing in a wide-open practice hold.) Whatever the embrace, if one partner is following "milonguero" partnering technique and the other "salon", the result will be unsatisfying to both partners -- and physically uncomfortable for at least one of them. In close embrace, the experience may prejudice them against the milonguero style. In open embrace, they will probably conclude that poor technique is the problem (their partner's technique, of course!) This might help explain why the American tango community seems to, as Tom noted, reap disappointing results, in spite of all our efforts. It could also explain why tango dancers tend to be so vehement in their preference for one "style" or the other. Imagine a swing dance attended by East Coast Swing and West Coast Swing dancers who had been taught that "swing is swing, and these are just two styles of swing"!


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:02:38 -0700 From: Randy Garrou <randygarrou @EARTHLINK.NET> Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing Very well put. I couldn't agree more. In the class setting, two way communication should always be heartily encouraged, not condemned.


Original Message----- From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango [mailto:TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Marisa Holmes Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 9:00 AM To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: Instruction While Social Dancing As a new dancer, it is important to me that leaders distinguish between the etiquette of social dancing and that of the classroom - and do not hesitate to speak up about any issue of style and following while in class. I am extremely grateful for advice given in classes, and I wish that all of the leaders I dance with in class would give me feedback, hints, and tips. [I am a grown up and I promise I will consider whether I think the advice is good before I take it. ;-) ]. Ours is a smallish tango community and there is no separate instruction for people who have had only a couple months worth of classes. There is the beginning class, and then there is a more advanced class which includes people who have been dancing from two months to ten years. It's pretty lonely in there if you're the guy who's been dancing two/three months, I can tell you, and there are very few people at that stage (perhaps because it is so thoroughly a sink-or-swim experience). In effect, one dances for six weeks with people who are equally clueless, then moves into a class where many of the people are quite accomplished, and most can get around the floor. You would think that this would be ideal, but in fact what I've found is that some of the more experienced leaders are inclined to lead and if you can't follow, they don't have anything to say and the next time you come around there is an attitude of resignation and still no information, even if you ask for help. On my second day in the more advanced section, I told the leader I was with that I was having trouble understanding the leads, and he shoved me around a while, then snapped, "Well, you understand the ocho, don't you?" The fact is that although I had been taught front ochos, three weeks before, I had never before felt them led by someone who had been dancing more than six weeks - how would I recognize the lead? (Leaaving aside the question of whether I could execute them well.) In all fairness, there are some leaders who have suggested that I make changes in my balance, who have led the same move repeatedly until I caught on, who have told me when I moved or shifted my weight without being led. I am very grateful to these people, and I sincerely hope to improve so that I can be the type of dancer they enjoy dancing with. I hope also, by dancing attentively, that I am giving them useful information about their leads so that they can improve. In the same vein, when I dance with a leader who is having trouble if I think I understand what the problem is, I ask if he would like to hear my observation about it. I hope I find as I continue dancing that there are many leaders who do not confuse the practice room with the dance floor. I understand from other social dancing the pleasures of leading and following smoothly with a partner of roughly equivalent skill. But when one is in a class, where everyone has presumably enrolled to improve their dancing, it is not necessary to strive for those moments of perfect wordless communication; it is sufficient to try to learn to dance better and to do what one can to help the other people in the class too. With hope, Marisa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/


Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 21:03:27 -0400 From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM> Subject: Idolatry - Milongueras The attitude of some men toward the milongueras who live in Argentina is both funny & sad. For them every woman at the milongas there is a goddess. These men wait in agony for the milongueras to accept them, to give them a sign that all their years of work have bourne fruit & made them worthy, to recognize that their tango is "authentic". This attitude demeans these women. It lumps them all together, labels them clones, ignores their individuality, puts them on a pedestal like those frozen white stone statues that have no humanity. So what happens when a real milonguera accepts the invitation one of these men to dance? Each & every one of these women is unique, none perfect, each with her own weaknesses & strengths, even the best of them. Let's suppose she is no spectacular trophy-beautiful woman. But she has spent much time picking her clothes & fixing herself up & feels comfortable with the way she looks. She loves to dance & has done it for decades but she has never gotten very good. She knows she just wasn't born with the talent, that her embrace is unsure, her steps a trifle wobbly, her reaction time a touch too slow. And maybe she hasn't the time even if she does have the talent to practice her dancing. She is the sole support for her family, has to work two part-time jobs to make ends meet, & still has to take care of the children. But so what if she's not a famous actress or professional tanguera? By God, it's Thursday night, the only night she has free, & she's going to forget all her problems & have a good time! Halfway through the evening she sees this tourist. He was here last week, danced with no one, has been here tonight from opening time, has been turned down by every woman he's asked, he doesn't know how to ask the right way, he's looking pretty forlorn. She lets him know she will dance with him, they embrace & dance, she does her very best, she's proud of herself. But after a couple of dances she senses he's disappointed. He's tried some things that didn't work, he's begun to feel her limits, the dance isn't the supernal religious experience he expected. The woman is only ordinary, not a goddess, the goddesses have evaded him again. He finishes the obligatory five dances of the tanda & thanks her but she can see his heart isn't in his thanks. He goes back to his table, says something to his friends, they laugh. Are they laughing about her? Once this would have hurt her, when she was a girl, before she had to deal with wounds of the heart so much more terrible than the tiny pin-scratch of a stranger's disdain. But she remembers other tourists more gracious, more interesting, such as the one who answered her interest with a glad step & a warm smile & eyes that saw HER, not some icon. Who took her gently in his arms & cherished her by adjusting that embrace till the two of them fit just right. Who heard the music, listened to her body language, moved simply, pushing but never exceeding the boundaries of what she could do, who explored & exploited what she COULD do. Who understood that in slow dances her wobbly steps picked up assurance & grace, that she knew this music & never wandered from the beat. Who felt the joy she radiated as they became acquainted with one another. Who left her at the end of the tanda with something said in a language that was totally incomprehensible but with a smile that needed no translation. So She waits still, alert for the next man who is a real man, not a star-struck boy of whatever age: the Goddess in Disguise. Larry de Los Angeles http://home.att.net/~larrydla


End of TANGO-L Digest - 9 Aug 2000 to 10 Aug 2000 (#2000-215) *************************************************************