The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 8 Aug 2000
to 9 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 8 Aug 2000 to 9 Aug 2000 (#2000-214)
There are 7 messages totalling 453 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Metin Yazir in Moscow
2. Good deal to BsAs
3. Daniela & Armando's workshop in Duvall's Farm
4. Instruction While Social Dancing
5. Tango Authenticity (2)
6. Tango in BsAs: different views.
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:36:59 GMT
From: Alexander Vistgof <vistgof @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Metin Yazir in Moscow
On behalf of the Moscow tango group, I would like to express our deep
appreciation for Metin's workshop in Moscow.
We were working on tango technique for more than 16 hours, discovering the
opportunities which every step gives to the leader and the follower. This
made us think on what we can do while tango and was of immense help for the
developing tango community in Russia.
I would also like to thank Jak Karako for yourorganizational support o f the
workshop.
Cheers,
Sasha
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Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:51:23 -0400
From: "Ingle, Nancy" <ningle @RHS.BREVARD.K12.FL.US>
Subject: Good deal to BsAs
Arthur Frommer's "Budget Travel" magazine ( Sept.-Nov.), p.88 notes
a RT air & five nights at Hotel Lucy, daily breakfast, transfers and
half-day city tour for $711 plus departure tax. Additional nights
$22/pp. BET Tours 800/438-4448.
Available Sept. 1-Nov.30. This might coincide with Daniela &
Armando's Congress.
I have NFI, but am thinking it is a good deal!
Still glowing from my trip in June!
Nancy Ingle
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:05:37 EDT
From: Daniela Arcuri <DATango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Daniela & Armando's workshop in Duvall's Farm
Hola amantes del Tango...
We want to thanks all of the people that attend to Daniela & Armando's
workshop & Milonga, in Robert Duvall's Farm, Virginia, last weekend.
Saturday night was full of surprises, it was people from New York, Palm
Beach, Fort Lauderdale, Washington DC, Charleston, Baltimore, Philadelphia,
Richmond; the show was made by "The Milongueros of New York", Carlos & Katy
Funes, Mario & Lelia Feliche and Ricardo & Debby (authentic milongueros from
BA), Pablo & Karina, (from Buenos Aires, Professional Tango Couple living in
Washington DC), Emilio & Olga D'Elia (authentic milongueros from BA), Luciana
Pedraza (Duvall's wife) had perform with Armando and Daniela & Armando.
This weekend was so special because besides dancing we enjoyed the country
the fresh air, the sun and "the rain of Sunday..."
We want to thanks also Luciana and Robert Duvall's for their presence in all
the event, and all Deisy's help.
We would like to invite you to be part of our e-mail list for future events,
please send us your name & e-mail address at:
Tangoacademy @aol.com
Sincerely,
Daniela Arcuri & Armando Orzuza
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:17:33 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Instruction While Social Dancing
The only time I will instruct someone while dancing (as opposed to
practicing) is when they're doing something painful or dangerous. And
if THEY try to instruct ME I listen politely, finish the dance, &
never, ever ask them to dance again.
If a woman asks me to instruct her while dancing I try to answer her
by leading her in whatever technique she has a question about. Or I'll
plead ignorance. Or tell her we'll talk about it after the dance. If I
have to talk during the dance, I make it just a few sentences. And I
never stop dancing.
As for those men who offer gratuitous advice, most of them are
ignorant & arrogant & will never change. You can try - nicely - but if
they persist, blow them off. Dance with wonderful me instead!
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 18:43:58 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Tango Authenticity
Tango Authenticity
Tom Stermitz
(wearing asbestes suit)
Diatribe:
What the heck is going on with tango in the US!
In what traveling I have done and in conversations with people from many
cities, I am getting the message that although there are many teachers and
many lovers of tango, the general quality of dancing in the US is really bad
and not getting any better. What is worse, students flock to anybody with a
pair of dance shoes and an 8 Count Basic (w/DBS) irregardless of whether they
actually dance well or teach "real" tango; I repeatedly hear reports that
although good dancers and teachers exist, students don't necessarily choose
them.
I don't want to insult any community or any individual, and this is the land
of "whatever" (i.e it is okay to do whatever you want). I know that most of
us face the problem of learning tango "second culture" with very few good
examples and many bad examples. But, I would like to lay a pile of blame at
the feet of those who should know better: the community organizers, local
teachers and travelling "masters" who teach things GUARANTEED TO TAKE N.
AMERICANS AWAY FROM THE REAL TANGO.
There, I've gotten the diatribe off my chest.
More quietly:
In the US we may have five tango communities with over 10 years of
experience and another 20 communities with five years. In addition we have
now developed a little tango industry complete with "master travelling
teachers," special tango weeks and many local teachers and organizers who
study, travel and obsess tango day & night.
Despite this growing experience, after taking several trips to Buenos Aires,
I am struck by the degree to which N. Americans do NOT dance tango like they
do in Argentina.
This is a disturbing realization, as I know that most of us have a sincere
dedication if not fanaticism to tango. In addition, the hardest working
students of tango are those of us who put ourselves forward as teachers and
organizers. We truly believe we are teaching the "real stuff".
What is "real Tango" and what is "authentic?"
I put real and authentic in quotes because there certainly could be
controversy over this or that style. I would like to suggest one
unimpeachable measure of success: Does your tango you get dances with the
ladies in Argentina? This is similar to whether or not your salsa dancing
would get you any dances with the Latin ladies at a New York night club.
I have seen quite a few teachers who instruct with good style or technique.
Many teachers have lots of really cool steps and figures made possible by
the tango vocabulary.
But for me authenticity is not about style or steps. It is something that I
have seen very, very few teachers of tango emphasize: the special character
and skill (heart & soul, musicality, rhythm, connection and feeling) that
would earn you repeat dances with the Argentine milongueras at a milonga in
Buenos Aires.
As most women who have danced with the good milongueros on their pilgrimages
to Buenos Aires can report, there is something special and unique carried in
their culture and their tango, that will pass with them in the next 10 or 15
years. As most men who have visited Argentina also know, it is difficult to
earn a dance with the ladies; sometimes it seems like you are wearing a big
sign saying "WARNING! GRINGO."
So flame away at me if you like, but what I really wanted to propose here is
that we review where we are and where we are going...because I know there
are hundreds of tango fantatics who are really good dancers and who love the
authentic social tango of Buenos Aires.
I think it will take a concentrated effort on our part to make real
improvements in our communities. We can't recreate the 1940s learning
process of the old milongueros who learned directly from their progenitors
of the 1920s and 1930s.
But after 5 or 10 years of community building, it seems to me we should have
a little more to show for our hard work.
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 18:48:21 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Tango in BsAs: different views.
Tango in BsAs: Different views.
Why is it so hard to learn authenticity?
I went back and reviewed a number of online articles that address the
question of authenticity and dancing in Buenos Aires and I was
rewarded by the thoughtfulness of these writers. Here is a
bibliography of the articles I looked at. (Maybe I'll compile a web
page specifically on the topic.)
My concern is the difficulty of learning a dance of someone else's
culture. I think we owe our communities and the spirit of Argentine
Tango the honor of trying to learn the real thing, rather than
imitating or pretending we know because we can scam a few more
students.
The generation of the 1940s is about to pass; we won't have that
reference point around for much longer.
WHAT IS THE BASIC IN SOCIAL DANCING THE ARGENTINE TANGO?
by Daniel Trenner
http://www.puentealtango.com/News/ar_basic.htm
"To learn tango outside of Argentina one must be aware that the conditions
set out for aspiring tango dancers in Argentina are drastically changed.
"Not only do the students have no cultural context for knowing the dance,
but their consciousness is filled with hollywood and advertising images
which are the bastard children of the original tango madness of the parisian
crazes of the teens and twenties.
"Dance floors where they observe tango tend to be filled with beginners
offering poor and misleading examples of what tango is suppose to be.
"Therefore, the student becomes dependent on the teacher in a way
unfathomable to the Argentines who invented this dance among the hoards of
competing milongueros, playing constant one-ups-manship with their ever
evolving creations. "
ARGENTINE TANGO COMMUNITIES (OUTSIDE OF BUENOS AIRES)
by Stephen Chin Bow
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/NEWGROUP.HTM#NEW
"Can an Argentine tango "community" exist outside of Argentina or is the
dance (and as some people believe its intimately related social structure)
strictly a South American/European phenomenon? Buenos Aires (BsAs) was
populated by many immigrants from Europe so it is a city with many
"European" characteristics. "
"Can a small self sustaining Argentine tango "community" exist (or can one
exist only in a large metropolis like Buenos Aires)."
"Can an Argentine tango "community" exist (outside of Argentina) without a
"leader" who has lived in Argentina (ie. someone who can "truly" call
himself or herself an Argentine)?"
"Can a person say s/he dances the "Argentine" tango if s/he has never been
to BsAs or if s/he dismisses the social etiquette and traditions of the
Argentine culture where the dance originated (ie. can a community, outside
of Argentina, where the people simply want to "do the [fancy "show tango"]
steps" be called an Argentine tango community)?"
"You may believe you are dancing "authentic" Argentine tango, but how do you
(and other dancers) define/describe "authentic" Argentine tango? A friend
once wrote on the international Tango-L "what you consider bad form or
technique another person may call a style" (I am paraphrasing here)."
ON THE WOMAN'S APPROACH
Janis Kenyon
http://totango.net/janis.html
"It is my theory that the salon and fantasia styles are popular in the
United
States and Europe due to the fact that people were first introduced to it by
the dancers of Tango Argentino who gave classes during their tour--everyone
wanted to learn it. There are dozens of teachers who tour the US and Europe
to teach salon style. "
THE MILONGUERO STYLE AND SOCIAL TANGO
by Daniel Trenner
http://www.puentealtango.com/News/ar_milonguero.htm
"Argentine milongueros, in my experience, are like the aged members of youth
gangs from 40 years ago. It's easy to meet them and to encourage them to
talk, unlike when they were younger and more secretive. They reflect
selectively on their histories, like any older folks, first putting the best
spin on their own individual roles, then on the roles of their family and
friends, and finally on their neighborhood and gang related loyalties. Maybe
some of them are telling the absolute truth, but we will never know. "
EVENING ETIQUETTE AT THE ARGENTINE SOCIAL DANCE HALL: THE MILONGA
by Rebecca Shulman
http://www.puentealtango.com/News/ar_etiquette.htm
"So what's it like out on the dance floor in a milonga?"
"One thing is, no matter how crowded it gets, they don't bump into each
other. Improvising tango means, at the survival level, being able to change
your idea, and your partner's direction, in the middle of any step, so as to
smoothly avoid crashes."
TANGO, THE ARGENTINE SOCIAL DANCE
by Daniel Trenner
http://www.puentealtango.com/News/ar_social.htm
"Tango has been often injected into the ballroom dance world outside of
Argentina without connection to its true context as an expression of the
Argentine soul. The tango is a dance that can stand on its own in terms of
technique and intricacy, but to separate it from its cultural milieu is to
dilute its power. "
Lidia Ferrari
IN PRAISE OF THE MILONGA
http://buenosairestango.com/docum/danza/elogio.html#english
"Everyone in Argentina danced tango in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s because tango
was a major component in the popular codes of everyday life, so everyone had
a passion and feeling for tango. Nevertheless, milongueros of that time
confirm that though everyone danced tango, few danced tango well. Everyone
moved to the rhythm of the music, and had a feeling for tango, so they could
dance it. But the good dancers stood out because they were the few, I would
say, who submitted themselves to the structure of the dance and were thus
able to remake it and experiment with it from the inside."
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:52:36 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Authenticity
I will phrase this posting as an open letter to Tom Stermitz (if I recall
correctly, a milonguero-style aficionado in my beloved Colorado), who is
dissatisfied with the State of the Tango in the USA.
He says, for example,
>
So flame away at me if you like, but what I really wanted to propose here is
that we review where we are and where we are going...because I know there
are hundreds of tango fantatics who are really good dancers and who love the
authentic social tango of Buenos Aires.
<
I am not sure that the quality of social tango dancing in the USA is
something worth anyone s night sleep.
Even though new to all of this, I have enough information to see clearly that
it is not good. In New York, at least. I am obviously not talking about, say,
myself: however badly I dance, I do not reflect on the reputation of the
community. I am thinking of the top amateur stratum (featuring people with
10, even 15 years, doing it who I cannot be inspired by, even as to
elementary etiquette), and of the professionals, most of whom are clearly
great dancers, by the way, some even extraordinary, and thoroughly trained in
very demanding disciplines.
What is the problem? The problem, if you want to call it that, is that an
enormous share of the teaching is done by tango amateurs (like yourself I
presume); and on top of that, tango amateur professionals hemmed in by all
kinds of commercial and political considerations. By the way, the
problematic, and often equivocal, nature of the status and role of the dance
teacher go back centuries.
On the other hand, fully professional teachers do exist, mostly in the salon
venue, much less so, thus far, in the milonguero venue. (That is more of a
vexation to you than to most people. I love to dance my approximation to
milonguero whenever I can, which is almost never, and I would love to have
daily milongas full of people doing it, I would go to no others. But that is
NOT the problem. It is to you, but that is because you have a basic
historical/factual confusion in your head as to what is and is not authentic
social dancing.) Students choose badly, true, or don t I know it, because you
start by throwing darts blindfolded and the odds are against you. However,
the situation is gradually and VERY SLOWLY improving. So I will sleep.
I would however not just sleep, but sleep soundly, if I could choose among
many more short term programs and seminars by tried and true Argentinean
masters -- salon or milonguero types, I am not choosy; and/or if more of them
set up shop here, at least for a while. You will hear many explanations for
why the offerings of this stuff are almost lost in the middle of the local
and visiting offerings that are not this stuff. I could take the punch out of
them pretty easily, but I am wiser than trying it here (not so wise, since I
already got this far), and you probably do not need me to. It seems that
Argentinean true masters (there are Argentinean amateurs, too and, I will
have you know, teaching and banging other dancers around in milongas) are too
troublesome, or not interested in USA dollars; and we have got the tooth
fairy too.
In order for tango pioneers (Walter Kane s coinage) to do a better job at
making the right kind of training (and stylistic indoctrination!!!)
available, another obstacle would have to be removed: ignorance. Probably all
the tango nonsense heard in the USA originates down there. It looks like
Rioplatenses love nonsense. Tango Bar, the movie, is just a partial (!)
novelization of a much bigger pile of historical and other nonsense. But see,
they have all this great tango down there, all of these various things going
on, all these great artists and pedagogues, this tsunami of [extra]ordinary
dancers among the common folk, so nonsense is even interesting. But here it
is a big problem.
Example? OK. The Tango-L recent discussions on styles (within last 2-3
months), involving several people tat I believe are tango pioneers and
(amateur?) teachers. Except for SERGIO s postings (plus a couple of minor
others, not counting cases of one on the nail, one on the horse shoe ), what
an amazing assemblage of non-sense!!! (And, if I recall correctly, you
contributed far more than your fair share.) If people who TEACH! tango of one
kind or another try to outdo each other in the area of non-sense ---
milonguero aficionados calling salon a show, i.e., not authentic social
dance, against ELEMENTARY HISTORICAL LOGIC, or trying to get us all tangled
in words by calling their own tango salon (and salon tango dance , help!)
--- salon aficionados, perhaps scared that they will no longer be able to
teach advanced giros, enrosques, lapizes, etc, etc, to people who cannot
WALK the tango semi-properly, calling milonguero just a simplified (inferior)
tango with people dancing closer than the ladies even really want to, or
saying that milonguero is a wrong name, because so many milongueros do not
dance it --- people on both sides tangled on the false implications of the
close embrace label (an extreme case of mistaking a bad headline for the
news) --- etc, etc, no wonder the tango leadership is also playing darts
blindfolded on a planetary basis. That helps me understand why not many of
the people that should really come here (be here) come (are); and why several
who have come here on their own are virtually ignored by the professional
establishment .
So, you see, to be frank, I am a little worried that you are concerned about
the state of tango dancing in the USA. I might lose my sleep over THAT. As a
milonguero AND salon aficionado, I don t like your likes and dislikes, and
you might succeed, who knows, around here we tend to be so faddish. There is
no need to worry about some Portenyo in a position of influence proposing to
ban the tango del 40 from polite tango dancing society; ACTUALLY, not just
metaphorically. If anyone in a responsible position were to progress from mud
slinging controversy to action proposals I believe Portenyos would say Are
You Nuts?! But here, I don t know . . .
OK, enough. You asked to be flamed. How am I doing?
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 8 Aug 2000 to 9 Aug 2000 (#2000-214)
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