Tango-L mailing list archive: Digest 17 Sep 1999 to 18 Sep 1999

The Tango-L mailing list archive

Digest from 17 Sep 1999 to 18 Sep 1999

Return-Path: owner-TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 03:00:13 -0400 Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 17 Sep 1999 to 18 Sep 1999 (#1999-9)

There are 6 messages totalling 418 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Palm Pilot ... (2) 2. [New Instructional Videos] (2) 3. AT World Championships (2)

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 04:34:19 -0700 From: Larry E Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM> Subject: Palm Pilot ... I learned several dances before tango that you can't master a new dance figure by memorizing each individual step. You have to break it upinto parts. For tango it makes sense to think of a figure having a beginning, middle, & end. And for fairly complex figures it helps to break the middle up into even simpler parts. This parallels the music of most tangos, which are made up of phrases with a setup, a development of a theme, & a climax. Sometimes these phrases are fairly short, two or three measures, no different from foxtrot or cha-cha or waltz. In this case there's usually only abeginning & an end, with no middle. Think of the box step in foxtrot & waltz, or the two five-step halves of a cha-cha (one-two-cha-cha-cha). Or there might be a short middle. The "Basic" that some tango teachers use has a two-step "chasse" (Chase Step) in the middle, where the woman does a cross step to bring herself back from an outside position to an inside position. But in tango the phrases are often rather longer, taking a dozen or more measures of music. And the phrases may combine to make scenes in a "novel," several scenes adding up to a chapter. A three-minute tango can have three to five "chapters," all together making a complete "story." There's a tango call "el huracan" that is very evocative of the history of a hurricane -- or a stormy love affair, or .... The tango vals "desde el alma" is so evocative of a love story that it's not unusual for a bride & groom to dance it at their wedding. This is another reason to break complex figures up into parts: to collect a small but interesting set of very fundamental figures that you can use to improvise an interpretation of the music you're dancing to. Rigid memorized complex figures just won't work with the sophisticated structures that tango musicians play. But individual steps won't work either; part of the charm of a work of art is its structure. And a improvised dance IS an artwork, rather like a extemporaneous poem in free verse. So-called free verse isn't; it's simply free of classical structures, with subtler & more complex structures of it's own, invented by the poet. So what are these fundamental structures? In an authoritarian dance venue like many parts of the ballroom dance world, there is one single authority. The so-called "International" style of ballroom dancing has manuals that look rather like programming manuals for robots. Tango, on the other hand, has many different "authorities" like (ahem!) me, Mingo Pugliese, the Dinzels, the "Tango Nuevodors" -- and you. Larry de Los Angeles http://home.att.net/~larrydla ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:06:08 PDT From: sharon gates <sharon7301 @NETSCAPE.NET> Subject: Re: [New Instructional Videos] Does anyone know who is doing the woman's part on videos of: 1. Mariano "Chicho" Frumboli: Boleos and Ganchos 2. Mariano "Chicho" Frumboli: Change of direction. Is it someone well-known? Thanks, Sharon. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com.

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:27:21 +1200 From: "William (Bill) Vella" <bill.vella @COMPANIES.GOVT.NZ> Subject: Re: AT World Championships -I joined your list recently and have followed some of the debate = closely. I am not totally new to the tango though, and I guess my opinion is as = good as any. I found this quote from a Tango book ( can't recall the name though, = sorry) Carlos Est=E9vez (Petr=F3leo), one of the key tangueros of this = century, recalls the scene. "There was much competition to see who was best. El Vasco = won most competitions. M=E9ndez came later and then I arrived. M=E9ndez was = the best in the 1930s. He went at the speed of light. El Mocho (Bernardo Undaz) = did a quieter tango, he had his own tempo, he stretched it out. El Vasco was elegant and accurate. He was a terrific dancer. When I saw him dance, I = was so moved...." So as people have already said, a dance competition is nothing new to = Tango Argentino. How to judge them? That's a good question. I have a feeling if Tango Argentino became too influenced by "Ballroom Style, with a "syllabus" it would be a shame as it would probably lose = all the aspects I like about it. I have to admit I admire the skill in Ballroom, but don't care to try = it, or like the music they choose. (Why is it Fred Astaire always danced to = great music but in ballroom competitions it's so banal?) But "we" can go on dancing Tango for its own sake, people can compete, perform show Tango, even compete in Ballroom run competitions. I really think "so what" I know how I want to dance/enjoy it. I know = who I'll think is "good" when I see them. Regards William (Bill) Vela Wellington New Zealand

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:35:22 -0500 From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG> Subject: Re: [New Instructional Videos] Sharon Gates inquired: >Does anyone know who is doing the woman's part on videos of: >1. Mariano "Chicho" Frumboli: Boleos and Ganchos >2. Mariano "Chicho" Frumboli: Change of > direction. Brooke Burdett dances the woman's part on the video Boleos and Ganchos. Sharna Fabiano dances the woman's part on the video Changes of Direction in Turns. --Steve de Tejas

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:53:51 -0400 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= A. Contreras" <jcontrer @CMET.NET> Subject: Re: Palm Pilot ...

1CC7B71E39E73B2C08271612 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by cmet.net id XAA00253 I agree in most of your concepts, but let's clarify some details. Tango m= usic is written into phrases or blocks made of 4x times (beats) beginning wit= h 8 times. That's the reason why it is called "el ritmo del 2x4" (the rithm o= f 2x4) i. e. "8" (8 =3D2x4) This means that tango phrases are made of 8 - 12 - 16 - 20 - 24 times, compounding what you call "chapters". Most usual are 8 and 16, less usual= 12 and even less usual 24, 32 times (Mariano Mores uses phrases of 24 and 32 times). Darienzo, Troilo, etc. write in 8 and 16 times. Some phrases in 1= 2 times. Back to notation. In Juan Olavarr=EDa's book he describes ALL tango steps= , figures and choreographies with a more detailed concept : Positions and links. Starting of the "positions" analysis, he concludes that any step, figure = or combination can be described with a series of positions and a series of l= inks that connect those positions. Hence, any step or complete dance can be analyzed, described, etc. with these ideas, and what is even more interesting, you can create near infinite steps, combinations, etc. if yo= u manage the position and links concept. Saludos Jos=E9 A. Contreras Larry E Carroll wrote: > I learned several dances before tango that you can't master a new > dance figure by memorizing each individual step. You have to break it > upinto parts. For tango it makes sense to think of a figure having a > beginning, middle, & end. And for fairly complex figures it helps to > break the middle up into even simpler parts. > > This parallels the music of most tangos, which are made up of phrases > with a setup, a development of a theme, & a climax. Sometimes these > phrases are fairly short, two or three measures, no different from > foxtrot or cha-cha or waltz. In this case there's usually only abeginni= ng > & an end, with no middle. Think of the box step in foxtrot & waltz, or > the two five-step halves of a cha-cha (one-two-cha-cha-cha). Or there > might be a short middle. The "Basic" that some tango teachers use has a > two-step "chasse" (Chase Step) in the middle, where the woman does a > cross step to bring herself back from an outside position to an inside > position. > > But in tango the phrases are often rather longer, taking a dozen or > more measures of music. And the phrases may combine to make > scenes in a "novel," several scenes adding up to a chapter. A > three-minute tango can have three to five "chapters," all together > making a complete "story." There's a tango call "el huracan" that is > very evocative of the history of a hurricane -- or a stormy love > affair, or .... The tango vals "desde el alma" is so evocative of a > love story that it's not unusual for a bride & groom to dance it at > their wedding. > > This is another reason to break complex figures up into parts: to > collect a small but interesting set of very fundamental figures that > you can use to improvise an interpretation of the music you're dancing > to. Rigid memorized complex figures just won't work with the > sophisticated structures that tango musicians play. But individual > steps won't work either; part of the charm of a work of art is its > structure. And a improvised dance IS an artwork, rather like a > extemporaneous poem in free verse. So-called free verse isn't; it's > simply free of classical structures, with subtler & more complex > structures of it's own, invented by the poet. > > So what are these fundamental structures? In an authoritarian dance > venue like many parts of the ballroom dance world, there is one single > authority. The so-called "International" style of ballroom dancing has > manuals that look rather like programming manuals for robots. Tango, on > the other hand, has many different "authorities" like (ahem!) me, Mingo > Pugliese, the Dinzels, the "Tango Nuevodors" -- and you. > > Larry de Los Angeles > http://home.att.net/~larrydla > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

1CC7B71E39E73B2C08271612 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> I agree in most of your concepts, but let's clarify some details. Tango music is written into phrases or blocks made of 4x times (beats) beginning with 8 times. That's the reason why it is called "el ritmo del 2x4" (the rithm of 2x4) i. e. "8" (8 =2x4) This means that tango phrases are made of 8 - 12 - 16 - 20 - 24 times, compounding what you call "chapters". Most usual are 8 and 16, less usual 12 and even less usual 24, 32 times (Mariano Mores uses phrases of 24 and 32 times). Darienzo, Troilo, etc. write in 8 and 16 times. Some phrases in 12 times. Back to notation. In Juan Olavarría's book he describes ALL tango steps, figures and choreographies with a more detailed concept : Positions and links. Starting of the "positions" analysis, he concludes that any step, figure or combination can be described with a series of positions and a series of links that connect those positions. Hence, any step or complete dance can be analyzed, described, etc. with these ideas, and what is even more interesting, you can create near infinite steps, combinations, etc. if you manage the position and links concept. Saludos José A. Contreras Larry E Carroll wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>I learned several dances before tango that you can't master a new dance figure by memorizing each individual step. You have to break it upinto parts. For tango it makes sense to think of a figure having a beginning, middle, & end. And for fairly complex figures it helps to break the middle up into even simpler parts. This parallels the music of most tangos, which are made up of phrases with a setup, a development of a theme, & a climax. Sometimes these phrases are fairly short, two or three measures, no different from foxtrot or cha-cha or waltz. In this case there's usually only abeginning & an end, with no middle. Think of the box step in foxtrot & waltz, or the two five-step halves of a cha-cha (one-two-cha-cha-cha). Or there might be a short middle. The "Basic" that some tango teachers use has a two-step "chasse" (Chase Step) in the middle, where the woman does a cross step to bring herself back from an outside position to an inside position. But in tango the phrases are often rather longer, taking a dozen or more measures of music. And the phrases may combine to make scenes in a "novel," several scenes adding up to a chapter. A three-minute tango can have three to five "chapters," all together making a complete "story." There's a tango call "el huracan" that is very evocative of the history of a hurricane -- or a stormy love affair, or .... The tango vals "desde el alma" is so evocative of a love story that it's not unusual for a bride & groom to dance it at their wedding. This is another reason to break complex figures up into parts: to collect a small but interesting set of very fundamental figures that you can use to improvise an interpretation of the music you're dancing to. Rigid memorized complex figures just won't work with the sophisticated structures that tango musicians play. But individual steps won't work either; part of the charm of a work of art is its structure. And a improvised dance IS an artwork, rather like a extemporaneous poem in free verse. So-called free verse isn't; it's simply free of classical structures, with subtler & more complex structures of it's own, invented by the poet. So what are these fundamental structures? In an authoritarian dance venue like many parts of the ballroom dance world, there is one single authority. The so-called "International" style of ballroom dancing has manuals that look rather like programming manuals for robots. Tango, on the other hand, has many different "authorities" like (ahem!) me, Mingo Pugliese, the Dinzels, the "Tango Nuevodors" -- and you. ; Larry de Los Angeles &nbs p; <a href="http://home.att.net/~larrydla">http://home.att.net/~larrydla</a> ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: <a href="http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj">http://dl.www.ju no.com/dynoget/tagj</a>.</blockquote> </html>

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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:31:43 -0700 From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: AT World Championships

Original Message ----- From: William (Bill) Vella <bill.vella @COMPANIES.GOVT.NZ> I really think "so what" I know how I want to dance/enjoy it. I know who I'll think is "good" when I see them. Right on Bill. I've said similar words in the past but I cannot remember how they were answered. This subject comes up continually and there is never resolution (pardon the pun). I agree with you that each of us can easily determine what is good when we see it. We can also go a step further and decide what is *best* when we see it. I guess my disagreement is with those who claim that tango is somehow removed from the realm of those things that we might individually or collectively judge. Sure I can agree that tango is an intensely personal experience between the dance partners. I'm also quite convinced that there are certain inneffable qualities that make a particular tango more enjoyable to the dancers. Also, these qualities might not be perceived by an observer. Regardless, the people who are watching the dancers are also very much a part of the experience and their subjective experience is as valid as anyone else's. If those watching (who might also be qualified to judge because they dance) decide that a particular couple is more pleasurable to watch than another who is to say they are wrong? Fine, if one enjoys watching only the most subtle of close embrace dancers doing only a few well done steps this is valid. If OTOH, someone prefers watching an spectacular couple do their dance, that too is fine. The point is that all of us are judging as we watch. It could also be said that whatever pleases the majority might be the best. There is nothing wrong with trying to be the best if that is what one wants. That is what all those legendary tango dancers did. The competed to see who was judged *the best*. Clearly, these competitions are part of the authentic tango experience and it would be less than respectful to take them out of the tango scene today. Regards, Manuel

End of TANGO-L Digest - 17 Sep 1999 to 18 Sep 1999 (#1999-9) ************************************************************