The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 16 Sep 1999
to 17 Sep 1999
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Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:00:14 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Sep 1999 to 17 Sep 1999 (#1999-8)
There are 6 messages totalling 342 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. The CITA 2000 Spam
2. AT World Championships (3)
3. Just a Porteno
4. TOSCA La Furia del Tango
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:52:28 +0200
From: Sabine Fuchs <Sabine.Fuchs @SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: The CITA 2000 Spam
>It's interesting to see how indignant you've become about
>the C.I.T.A. *spam* you've received.
Manuel,
not everybody became indignant; I myself thought JC's comment to be rather
pompous.
I found the C.I.T.A. announcment an interesting, useful and Tango-related
information, though I most probably will not be able to attend.
Thanks!
Sabine
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:49:38 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: AT World Championships
HI Carlos,
Please go ahead and reply to aisstilla @yahoo.com's issues. It does not
matter at all what the identity of the poster is. I really don't care if you
are who you say either. I'm interested in the free exchange of ideas. I'm
very interested in this topic about "> >1) Technical and Artistic Standards
> >2) Authorities (Judges)"
as it pertains to AT dancing. Specifically as it refers to the judging of
the quality of a dance or dancers.
I think too much is made of the use of pseudonyms in the list. Personally I
find insults and taunts distasteful regardless of true identity of the
poster. Same goes for cogent, interesting and provocative opinions. I really
do not care who signs the post. I judge the contents and not the signature.
Unfortunately, I'll probably never get to meet more than a fraction of the
listers in person so a pseudonym is as good as a real name anyway.
I would like to encourage Carlos and everyone else to continue to post and
express their thoughts to the list. This is the purpose of the list, to
provide a forum for the exchange of ideas and opinions about AT. Let's keep
the list lively and entertaining. Please go ahead and share your thoughts.
I'm sure that many others want to read about them too.
Cheers,
Manuel
www.tango-rio.com
Original Message -----
From: Carlos Garces <carlosg @MINDSPRING.COM>
> Not sure who is missing the point, but given aisstilla @yahoo.com's
previous
> emails on the AT Professional Championships and my overall disagreement on
> "aisstilla's" point of view, I'll assume I'm missing the point.
>
> >A championship presupposes two things which AT does
> >not have or prefer not to have:
> >1) Technical and Artistic Standards
> >2) Authorities (Judges)
>
> Two important issues. I have a problem, though, addressing tango-l email
> from somebody who prefers to use the tango-l option to remain anonymous is
> not in my realm of responding to. If he/she wishes to discuss this
subject
> any further by identifying themselves on/off the tango-l list I'll be
> willing to reply to their issues.
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:34:11 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: AT World Championships
Dear Manuel and others:
I am with Carlos on this one. If he does not wish to engage in a
conversation with someone who chooses to remain anonymous, that is his
business. You may have not met Carlos Garces, but I have met him, and
the point is that I can.
It is difficult to hold a serious conversation with someone who is
hiding behind a veil of anonymity, knowing that they can easily morph
to flames without bearing any personal consequences.
<aisstilla @yahoo> has already taken a position that is most readily
interpreted as plain wrong:
>>A championship presupposes two things which AT does not have or
>>prefer not to have:
>>
>>1) Technical and Artistic Standards
>>2) Authorities (Judges)
Obviously, a title can be issued without either technical and artistic
standards or authorities. The IDO competition in Miami was held
without a syllabus prescribing either technical and artistic
standards--as were all of the competitions that were held in Buenos
Aires during the golden age of tango. The judges in Miami were not
accepted as even being knowledgable about Argentine tango.
Without a syllabus, the competition is going to have to be judged by
different standards than whether the exact form prescribed in a
syllabus is being followed. And, the uninformed judges will have to
use looser subjective standards such as musicality, artistic
interpretation, quality of movement, etc.
Now if <aisstilla @yahoo> is obliquely arguing that IDO recognition of
a couple as world champions of Argentine tango should not mean much in
the world of Argentine tango, <aisstilla @yahoo> may have a point. It
was not many years ago that the Bottomers won the IDO world title in
Argentine tango.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:37:26 GMT
From: Lili khayatt <justlili @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Just a Porteno
Name: Martin M.
Age: 59
Profession: Architect, Software and Sound Engineer, Narrador de Historia
(Raconteur), Professor, Businessman.
First he took a sip of his mati, and then began.
I was born in the barrio of La Paternal. My parents were Russian/British
Jewish immigrants. My father grew up as a Gaucho in La Pampa, in a place
called Bernasconi. He came to Buenos Aires for work, since my mother did not
like living in the Pampas. He loved to listen but also to sing Tango. I
still remember one very old Magaldi one he used to like to sing, called La
Pulpera de Santa Lucia . Fiorentino (who later went on to sing many
memorable Tangoes with Troilo s orchestra), was a neighbour.
In La Paternal there were a number of social clubs which held Milongas on
Saturday and Sunday nights. As a child I remember hearing the music on those
nights . They played mostly Tangoes, Milongas, Paso Dobles as well as
Italian music, and it would fill the entire neighbourhood. Yes, I learnt to
speak Lunfardo because it was the normal language spoken in my
neighbourhood. For example, Mina was the word defining a woman. Chabon, for
a man. A typical Lunfardo expression and shall we say, preoccupation of the
day was levantarse una mina . In polite English, that would translate as
to encounter a young lady . Edmundo Rivero spoke it well, and many of his
songs use Lunfardo. Years later, Edmundo often came and sang his Tangoes at
our friend and family parties No, the Compadritos had long gone. They were
mostly in my grand father s generation!
My favourite Tango? Bahia Blanca, because it does not have lyrics and it
also brings me to a time long gone by. To my childhood memories of those
clubs in my barrio. You could hear the music everywhere. The violin part in
Bahia Blanca is particular beautiful. Martin then softly and nostalgically,
begins whistling this Tango for me.
I was lucky to have known and heard all the orchestras of the time he
continues. Troilo and DiSarli were the most melodious. D Arienzo put more
rhythm. Chan, chan, chan, chan, he demonstrates again. Troilo was a
bandoneon virtuoso. It was a complete experience listening to him.
How do you interpret the birth of Tango, Martin? I asked.
I believe the Tango was born of the Masurka and Habanera music, and
developed from the Ranchera. It has a lot to do with the Italian immigrants
who brought the Bandoneon to Argentina. Sure, the Bandoneon was a German
instrument, but the Italians had been using it in their music, and brought
it over with them. This was accompanied with the guitar, a Spanish
instrument used by the Guachos. When the Gauchos arrived in the city, using
their guitar, they too brought their music with them. So here we already
have Italian, German and Spanish influence. Later, the Italians added the
violin or flute. In the beginning Tango had no lyrics. The music was just to
listen or dance to.
The Tango therefore was born as a necessity for people to be together,
something to make their lives happy, to meet socially and dance, creating
this their own particular mixture. In the old days, people lived in
conventillos. These were a sort of multi-family housing with a common patio,
where residents met and played their music.
Martin, what do you think of all these visitors from North America,Europe,
the Middle and Far East who love the Tango and come to Buenos Aires just for
Tango? Maravilloso, he says. This is definitely an impressive cultural
phenomena today. These people are obviously interested in the music and the
dance. Tango is one of the last dances left in the world today that is
danced with an embrace.
There is something particularly interesting in the history of Tango, he
offered. If one listens to the letras (lyrics) in general, they speak of sad
things, of unrequited love, betrayal, deception etc. Listening to this, one
can see how the Tango has moved from one social class to another. From the
lower class to the middle and then upper class. For example, some lyrics
speak of a man using his knife on the woman who betrayed him. In the 1940 s
when the conventillos no longer existed and people began living in apartment
buildings, you see lyrics that now address a Portero (doorman), to send a
message to this poor unfortunate woman who betrayed him. This denotes the
changes of time.
Tango always narrates a story. A story of love. A story about mother. A
story of immigrants. Always a story. Music today does not. It may refer to a
moment, but does not tell a story. He sings: Nostalgias de escuchar su risa
loca narrates a loss. Tango lyrics are perhaps what the foreigner misses out
because one does not know the language. So for foreigners, it is the music
and dance and not the comprehension of the lyrics. All Tangoes by Romero
Manzi or Discepolo are very poetic Tangoes, like Madre Selva, Uno. They
always tell a story, much like a Bolero. And yes, there is clearly a
connection with the Portuguese Fados.
For someone who lives in Buenos Aires, and has a feeling for music,
listening to Piazzolla Verano Porteno realizes it is exactly the music of
Buenos Aires. It is very typical of and describes this city perfectly. To
me, this composition would be the right hymn to Buenos Aires. It is just the
right description of the BA that I know and live in.
Anyone older than 30, who lives in Buenos Aires today, who may not
necessarily dance the Tango, but will still love it.
My impression of the Milonga today, he said, is that the man goes there to
find a woman. And the woman goes there to find a man. The music is not
blaring loud like in a disco, so they can converse and have physical
contact. There is therefore a physical dialogue which does not exist in a
disco. The average age of people there seems to be 50. The young people
that dance Tango are still few and an exception.
As this interview was coming to a close, Martin made a serious and almost
apologetic comment to me. You know Lili, he said, I don t dance the Tango.
I was not in the least bit offended. Without dancing it, there was enough
Tango in this Porteno!
Lili
http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw/tght.html
______________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 20:54:48 -0500
From: Raul Martinez <raulmart @MACOL.NET>
Subject: Re: AT World Championships
Much has been written about the so-called AT World Championships, but no
one seems to have taken issue with the "World Champion" appellation. For
the sponsors to pretend that the winning couple, however worthy, are the
"World Champion" AT dancers is the ultimate in chutzpah and
pretentiousness.
Having said that, let me quickly say that I've seen Fernanda and
Guillermo perform and consider them to be great dancers. So they are
worthy winners of the "competition." But to call them World Champions
demeans them. I'm sure that they themselves don't pay much attention to
this.
Competitions with winners are OK; they happen all the time with uncertain
criteria and unqualified judges. But "World Championship"? Puleeeeeeze.
Tangazos,
Raul
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:20:34 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: TOSCA La Furia del Tango
Hi everyone!
Because I've been so busy elsewhere, I haven't had time to post to the List
my impressions of the TOSCA tango orchestra from Austin, Texas, that I heard
live at the Viper Room in L.A. a couple of weeks ago.
I went due to the posting here on the Tango-L (Forgive me, I don't know who
posted the info), and I've gotta tell you, TOSCA is incredible! A huge
GRACIAS to whoever let me know about them.
Here they were on a Thursday night, in a trendy art deco bar on the Sunset
Strip, playing their neuvo tango from Texas. There were 8 musicians crammed
on the tiny stage, most of them women! There were 2 violins, a viola, a
cello, double bass, piano (she was magnificient!), clarinet, and accordeon.
The entire set, but for one or two, was original music by Glover Johns Gil
(the accordonist) in the Piazzola tradition.
Unfortunately, the tiny room full of standees didn't really know what they
were hearing. There was a lot of conversation and laughing, but there was
listening as well. The audience were trendoids, not tangueros. But there was
a lot of crossover happening that night.
The only tango aficianados in attendance were myself and two friends, but
everyone had a good time due to the fantastic music. (Unfortunately, no
dancing was possible.)
I can just hear what some tango dancers might have said had they been there
(sort of like the comments on the List about the Tango Magic TV show)--
the music is too new, not really for dancing, not authentic, how can an
accordeon substitute for a bandoneon?, bla bla.
But it was good!
I bought one of their CD's, only to be sorry the next day that I didn't get
both of them.
If TOSCA comes to your area, don't miss them!
Cherie
"One size does NOT fit all!"
http://www.viveladifference.com
P.S. Their album cover says, "no bar code, no e-mail, no website," but their
address is 1905 Goodrich, Austin, TX 78704, in case anyone wants to get in
touch with them.
P.P.S.
Does anyone think I have any financial interest? You've got to be kidding! I
wish I did!!
End of TANGO-L Digest - 16 Sep 1999 to 17 Sep 1999 (#1999-8)
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