The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 26 Oct 1999
to 27 Oct 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 03:00:17 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 26 Oct 1999 to 27 Oct 1999 (#1999-46)
There are 8 messages totalling 353 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. TANGO-L Digest - 23 Oct 1999 to 24 Oct 1999 (#1999-43)
2. men teaching men
3. Is it usual?
4. Men as Followers
5. men teaching men / lead and follow
6. Leading, being female, and cultural influences (2)
7. Atlanta - Cacho Dante tour delayed
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:36:12 -0700
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 23 Oct 1999 to 24 Oct 1999 (#1999-43)
Re: Florindo Sassone
I`m happy to hear from someone else who enjoys Florindo Sassone`s music
as much
as I. I play his tangos regularly at our milonga here in L.A.
Sassone was a violinist as well as a superb orquestra leader who began
his career in
1930 working with and being strongly influenced by Roberto Firpo and
Osvaldo Fresedo.
He formed his own group in 1936 and eventually began recording in 1947
continuing on
into the 1970`s either with his "Sexteto Don Florindo" or "Su Gran
Orquesta". The sound
(style) that he developed was very similar to that of Carlos Di Sarli.
Two other orquestras
also very similar to both are Osvaldo Manzi`s "El Octeto Marabu" and La
orquesta de
Alberto Di Paulo-the latter I would call a modern version of Di Sarli.
There are 4 excellent CD`s by Sassone that I use on a regular basis at
our friday night
milonga:
~"El Esquinazo" (EMI-PAMPA)-12 instrumentals: early classic style.
~"Tangos De Oro" (EPSA)-16 outstanding instrumentals (1967).
~"Serie RCA Club" (BMG)-14 tangos with singers Jorge Casal, Roberto
Chanel, and
Rodolfo Gale (1949).
~"Tango Internacional"(EPSA)-2 CD set containing 36 beautiful
instrumental versions
of famous international tangos including: "Orchids in the
moonlight", Hernando's
Hideaway", "La Paloma", "Isle of Capri", "Blue Tango", "Jealousy",
etc. - all with an
"Argentine rhythm" (1971).
Best regards,
Mark Celaya
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:07:28 +0100
From: Garrit Fleischmann <fleischm @STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE>
Subject: Re: men teaching men
Hello Matej,
> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:50:00 -0400
> From: Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU>
> There is really not much to talk about this Pepito's class, because most
> of the work was done by us, ... no big issues ... and I am sure most of
> the vocal supporters of the "men leading men" cliche on this list would
> hate it, but we learned well, unlike in many other classes when teachers
> talk 90% of time, creating an impression in many students that they
> understand something, without actually learning a thing about tango...
> (assuming tango is about doing it, not talking about it). Pepito was
> there for us to learn, while I see many teachers to
> be in class for students to glorify them. However, Pepito's teaching, as
> well as teaching of all other true tango masters, lasts.
I for my part support the idea of men who get an idea of the followers part,
but why should that mean that I don't like Pepitos teaching method?
I did only 2 classes as a follower, all the other classes as a leader
(and in about 6 years there were many classes).
It's not a question of: either "men leading men" or "all the other methods" -
each method at it's time and for a different goal.
Learning the principle of following is important to get a deeper understanding
of leading, but it doesn't mean, that it will help you to undestand
leading movements for specific figures.
Enjoy the Tango,
Garrit
________________________________________________________
Garrit Fleischmann
email: Garrit.Fleischmann @gmx.de oder tango @garrit.kpnet.de
Tango: http://www.cyber-tango.com/
Witze: http://www.cyber-tango.com/jokes.html
________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:14:47 +0200
From: "Christoph J.W. Schmees" <cjws @GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: Is it usual?
Hi Billie,
here are some answers. I left your text in "".
"Hmmmmm, I'm not sure if this statement is because you didn't
believe the
respondent, but if the air conditioner was broken, and the same
reply to
the query was given to several people at the milonga, what more
is there to
do about it? <snip>"
Maybe I didn't express precisely enough. They have both, an air
condition *and* ventilators. Air condition broken (according to
what the owner said), and ventilators he didn't want to put on,
for what reason ever.
<snip>
"I take it you own the CD they were playing. How did you know?"
<snip>
"Please, let me know what music it was that drained you of every
ounce of
enthusiasm, as I have rarely heard a tango, vals or milonga that
I absolutely refused not dance to (fast or slow)."
No, luckily I don't own the CD. Nor do I know what the music was.
I know I didn't like it, and that apparently was true for a lot
of other people as well (if you accept 'voting with your feet' as
a vote).
How I know that it was just one CD? I saw it. A person puts in a
piece into the music machine, and for the next hour or so (sorry,
I didn't have my stop watch at hand) the machine is lelft alone.
Furthermore, all that time you hear the same sort of music. What
would you think here?
<snip>
"I find it odd, too. However, to play devil's advocate, some
folks like to
hear what the music will be before they start dancing randomly
and without
musicality."
Again, perhaps I didn't express precise enough. I wrote about
people standing and *talking*, not people standing close embrace
and *listening* attentive to the music. I completely agree with
you that it is desirable to first feel into the music, and start
dancing only when you are 'synchronous' with it. But this is not
what I observed and described.
Christoph
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:14:41 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Men as Followers
I agree with Laurie's posting in that our perceptions change when we
experience something vs. just hear about it. Daniel Trenner gave several
classes at the tango festival in Washington last week. He presented
several ideas that were excellent for all of us, men and women.
Practicing steps by reversing roles was one of those ideas. We all
enjoyed it as a practice! But, should we do this regularly? It is the
matter of personal choice, of course. Has there ever been a historical
precedence when women lead women? I personally enjoy a man's lead,
because of the connection I feel with a good tango dancer for the
duration of OUR dance. I simply do not feel the same way when I dance
with a woman. Nevertheless, others might. As everything else in tango:
it is very personal.
Laurie Moseley (at home) wrote:
>
> I would have thought that it was self-evident that if a man knows what it
> feels like to be led well (and led badly), then he is likely to be a better
> leader.
>
> My experience in teaching at three clubs is that when a man has had
> experience of following he almost invariably becomes a better leader. (The
> "almost" is put in to prevent exaggeration - I can't actually think of a
> counter-example on the spur of the moment).
>
> I suspect that men who resist the idea do not fully appreciate the subtlety
> of the art of leading. In an area in which muscle memory is important how can
> you know how to be clear, firm, but gentle unless you have felt it ? Perhaps
> it is even more important that you know what it feels like to be handled
> roughly, given inconsistent signals, or even no signals at all. At least you
> then know that you have a problem !
>
> Abrazos tangueros
>
> Laurie (Laurence)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:45:19 +0200
From: petra starmans <petra.starmans @BEFREE.CH>
Subject: Re: men teaching men / lead and follow
Hello list
I have not read all of the 'men teaching men' or 'followers/leading =
and leaders/following' postings, so I am not sure if my opinion on =
this would still be a contribution in this discussion or if somebody =
already mentioned it.
I believe, that the changing of the roles, apart from all the =
learning effects in regard to one's own dancing, which to me are =
very clear, also really has the benefit of opening one up to respect =
the difficulty of the 'other' role, the one you don't do often =
yourself. In this way, it has helped me develop a really different =
attitude in taking classes or practising new elements and new =
concepts with my usual or with other partners, a lot more patience =
with the people I am practising with, a lot more humour when things =
don't seem to work out right and a lot less pressuring expectations =
regarding the speed of learning of my partenaire.
In our own teaching, especially beginners classes, we therefore =
change the lead often. The respect gained can make the dance and the =
inner connection much more gentle and relaxed.
A nice day to you all
Petra
petra starmans
neptunstrasse 21
8032 z=FCrich
switzerland
tel/fax: +41 1 262 06 55
e-mail: petra.starmans @befree.ch
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:17:01 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay @FOXINTERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Leading, being female, and cultural influences
"I feel it is a difficult thing for women, perhaps especially
American women (I'm unsure about this) to give up our liberated attitudes
and give in to being lead. We are so trained in our culture to subtly lead
men in so many other ways...we call it "nurturing"."
I bristle at the idea of women "giving in" to the lead. I am a follower who
has been doing some leading lately, and am often asked by followers what it
takes to be a good follower. I advocate an Active Follow, someone who
stands up and insists that a leader do his part, so that she can do hers.
One who listens, and also insists that she be heard. And never apologizes
for getting it "wrong".
A friend of mine recently commented that during a dance with me he had a
"moment" (isn't this what we're all after?) and from that came a revelation:
Dancing tango isn't about lead/follow as much as about partnership. That
partnership works together to interpret the music and design a beautiful
dance. This requires a liberated attitude-not passivity.
Lois Donnay
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:49:46 -0400
From: John Daniel Waggoner <dwag @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Atlanta - Cacho Dante tour delayed
If you or friends were planning to attend Cacho Dante & Brigitte Winkler's
workshop this weekend in Atlanta GA, please be aware that a sudden illness
has delayed Cacho's arrival in the US. We are currently making plans to
reschedule and will post details as they are confirmed.
Please pass this on to any interested parties.
We will, as planned, celebrate a Halloween Milonga on Sat 30 Oct at
Charmaine's in Buckhead and we are hosting a free practica from 9-11pm Fri
29 Oct. at the Several Dancers' Core Studio in Decatur
email or call if you have questions.
THX
Danny Waggoner
danny @tango-atlanta.com
404.378.6985
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:56:15 EDT
From: "Laurie Moseley (at home)" <LGMoseley @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading, being female, and cultural influences
Interesting point from Donnay. Two comments from here in the Forest of Dean
(UK).
1. The concept of "wrong" may relevant in the context of the spirit of the
Tango (e.g. not cherishing your partner, not showing consideration for other
couples). However, in the context of dancing (not just learning) steps or
figures the concept of "wrong" should have no place in our vocabulary. One of
our teaching mottos is "You may be on the unintended foot, but you're never
on the wrong foot". This is because if you are dancing one step at a time,
there is always something you can do from that unintended foot.
2. It is usually true, and often politic to assume, that when communication
breaks down, it is the man's fault. Such an approach has the obvious
beneficial effect that the couple do not stop and argue on the floor,
blocking other couples. However, it has individual benefits for the two
persons who make up the couple.
A. For the lady, in principle it is never her fault. So there is no pressure
to apologise on the rare occasions when it WAS her fault. So, in principle
she is never wrong, even when in practice she is !
B. For the man, as he is in principle always wrong, on those occasions when
he really is wrong, no one really knows if he was wrong in principle or if he
was really wrong on that occasion.
So, in this weird psychology, neither partner can be sure if they're ever
wrong, and they can get on with enjoying the music and the dance.
Of course, all of that is when you're dancing. When you're learning and
practising, you can attribute blame to your heart's content. However, even
then I would advise against it. "What can I do to make this move easier for
you ?" is usually a productive question. Do, though, ask it in a place where
you don't block other couples.
Safe Ganchos
Laurie (Laurence)
End of TANGO-L Digest - 26 Oct 1999 to 27 Oct 1999 (#1999-46)
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