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Digest from 25 Oct 1999
to 26 Oct 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 25 Oct 1999 to 26 Oct 1999 (#1999-45)
There are 11 messages totalling 559 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Men as Followers
2. Men as followers - YES
3. Mem teaching men (2)
4. TANGO-L Digest - 22 Oct 1999 to 23 Oct 1999 (#1999-42)
5. Follower's role
6. Is it usual? (3)
7. Yet another "Evita" connected tango personality
8. Is It Usual?
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 04:19:07 EDT
From: "Laurie Moseley (at home)" <LGMoseley @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Men as Followers
I would have thought that it was self-evident that if a man knows what it
feels like to be led well (and led badly), then he is likely to be a better
leader.
My experience in teaching at three clubs is that when a man has had
experience of following he almost invariably becomes a better leader. (The
"almost" is put in to prevent exaggeration - I can't actually think of a
counter-example on the spur of the moment).
I suspect that men who resist the idea do not fully appreciate the subtlety
of the art of leading. In an area in which muscle memory is important how can
you know how to be clear, firm, but gentle unless you have felt it ? Perhaps
it is even more important that you know what it feels like to be handled
roughly, given inconsistent signals, or even no signals at all. At least you
then know that you have a problem !
Abrazos tangueros
Laurie (Laurence)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:35:06 +0100
From: Garrit Fleischmann <fleischm @STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE>
Subject: Men as followers - YES
Hello list,
again a very interesting discussion about leading/follwing
and learning.
Natarajan Balasundara wrote:
> Maybe, when I am better at leading, I might vigorously
> argue that leaders are not good leaders until they are
> great followers as well and admit myself into the
> exclusive club of ambidextrous(is there a word like
> this which means one is a good leader as well as a
> follower or is the concept entirely new and needs a
> new word to name it?) argentine milnagera(o)s.
I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. If I am right,
so far noone really stated WHY it's good for a leader to learn
how to follow. Here my ideas to that topic:
I hope we all agree in that a good leader should lead every step
in a Tango, so there is the possibility of changeing the
direction of a movement in every step - you don't
dance fixed figures or sets but you do constant improvisation.
In order to do that, you have to think with the
feet of the follower, not your own.
1) If you want to truely lead each step in the dance
you have to KNOW (or feel) on which foot the follower
has her (his) weight and which is free at every time. Otherwise
it is very likely that you either step on the followers foot
sometimes, or move the follower in a direction which is impossible
for her to move to (without changing weight or doing a hip turn,
for example an ocho).
2) If you want to connect to figures with each other, you need to
know which foot the follower will need to perform the first step
of the next figure. (And of cause on which foot the follower has
her wieght at this point)
The best (the only?) way to learn that is to learn the steps of the
follower. You don't need to be a perfect follower, you just need to
know the basic movements the follower will do.
I learned that in a special class for men. Our goal was not to become
the perfect follower, but to get an idea of the steps and the feeling
of beeing a follower.
There are 2 other points, why it is important to learn basic following
for a leader:
- As a leader, you often have just to wait a moment, while the follower
finishes a move. A lot of leaders tend to move on to quickly, not allowing
the follower to savour the movement and really finish it before going on.
If you as a leader experienced once how bad it feels to interupt such a
movement, you will see to it that your partner gets enough time to finish
her movement the next time.
- A lot of begining leaders tend to lead with their hands/arms independently
of their body. Like in an ocho, where the arms move with the follower, but
the body stays still as a rock - this way loosing the contact with the partner.
Or do other things which are uncomfortable for the follower or might lead
to misunderstandings.
The best way to get rid of these bad habits in leading is experience yourself
how it feels to be lead this way.
Conclusion:
You don't have to wait till you are a great leader till you start to learn
how to follow too. It's very good, if not nescesary to know following basics
in order to become a very good leader. You don't have to be a really good
follower in order to take advantage of it for your leading, but it's important
to understand the principles!
Enjoy the tango,
Garrit
PS: All the argentinian (and european) teachers I had could dance both parts.
________________________________________________________
Garrit Fleischmann
email: Garrit.Fleischmann @gmx.de oder tango @garrit.kpnet.de
Tango: http://www.cyber-tango.com/
Witze: http://www.cyber-tango.com/jokes.html
________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:39:41 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Mem teaching men
Cleveland has also had the privilege of having Daniel Trenner for a work
shop. I found him to be very gifted in his teaching technique. I certainly
am going to try his technique out for a while and see for my self, if this
style works, although I'm certain it will.
Thinking back in my ballroom years, I had to pick out, who do I want to teach
me.
Do I look for the best dancer, Do I look for the cheapest price? Then someone
told me to look for someone whose dancing you enjoy, who do you think is
good, and ask them who their teacher was, and that is what I did. The best
teacher are not always the best dancers.
What I noticed about Daniel Trenner's teaching was, He got the highest amount
of people dancing tango faster and better than anyone else in the amount of
time he spent here. Teaching them first what each of their rolls were and
what is expected of them. I find teaching someone the 8 count basic first a
hindrance. I always see them doing it over and over, and I always have to
remind them to just walk, that's part of the tango and some people for get
that. Teach the women what her steps should be and she will always start
anticipating, not waiting for the man to lead them.
If the women is the reward for doing a step right, I'm all for it. Don't you
give your dog a treat when he does something right. A women is a very
powerful reward in my eyes. You can also view this as respect to the women,
why use her for some men's punching bag.
Men practicing with men (not dancing) helps. It lets them realize just how
long it takes to perform some of the intricate steps. If a women want to do
more embellishments to give them the time needed. Its also gives the women an
appreciation of what it takes to be a leader. The tempo of the music is
always a hard item to teach. Some people just don't hear it. Putting a
beginning man with a more experience man helps to feel the rhythm. Putting a
beginning man with a women who doesn't know the tempo or at least can't lead
it only slows down the process.
I was always taught that the man's first responsibility was the women. Second
was the music, and third himself. Daniel Trenner teaches this statement.
I sometimes feel Daniel Trenner doesn't get the respect he deserves. You
might not like how he may do things, but who else promotes tango like him.
Would most of the instructors in BsAs be as well known without the help of
the bridge to tango catalog, or finically well off.
I will be using Daniel's techniques in Cleveland and in a couple of months I
can really say for sure if this works. Maybe someone else will come to
Cleveland with a better technique, but until then, conceder me a Deciple of
Daniel Trenner's teachings.
I am
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:50:00 -0400
From: Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mem teaching men
If you got a headache, I assume you would take an aspirin or two, or something
stronger, but definitely not 30 aspirins, which would lead only to stomach
problems at best.
To translate into tango learning language, from my own teaching experience, it
often helps to show to a male student how it should feel right, and how bad it is
when it doesn't. But this is just one of many ways to resolve a problem, from a
bag of tricks every teacher has, and one applies them as much as - , and whenever
necessary.
As for myself, yes, in very few cases it did actually help me to elucidate a
problem by following a men who did a particular element considered very well
(like following Facundo's lead in syncopated milonga steps), but in 99% of cases
what helped most was the criticism of my partner. She knows better what should
feel good for her than I will ever know... so better rely on her than trying to
cater the type of lead to my own taste (unless we would be dealing with some very
basic problems).
I remember taking a class with Pepito several years ago. He demonstrated a step
slowly and clearly with Suzuki, then did the same step with every lady in the
class, and that was it... he went back to his wine and cigarettes. No talking!
Men struggled at first, but we all got it well, with help of our partners, of
course... then Pepito added another element to the step etc etc.
There is really not much to talk about this Pepito's class, because most of the
work was done by us, ... no big issues ... and I am sure most of the vocal
supporters of the "men lesding men" cliche on this list would hate it, but we
learned well, unlike in many other classes when teachers talk 90% of time,
creating an impression in many students that they understand something, without
actually learning a thing about tango... (assuming tango is about doing it, not
talking about it). Pepito was there for us to learn, while I see many teachers to
be in class for students to glorify them. However, Pepito's teaching, as well as
teaching of all other true tango masters, lasts.
No teaching method should a-priori be discounted, since people are different, and
some are more of visual learners, some need to think more... If it takes a person
to sing naked in front of Metropolitan Opera to loosen up and become a better
tango dancer, well, this person might just do it if he is serious about tango and
doesn't mind the other consequences, but one should not conclude from this that
everybody should do the same. Most prefer more gradual approach, learning bit by
bit, and needless to say, practicing a lot. In general, there are no shortcuts in
learning tango... but there could be many traps!
Best regards,
Matej
http://lancelot.bio.cornell.edu/matej/tango/
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:43:14 -0500
From: Joe Grohens <joe @WOLFRAM.COM>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 22 Oct 1999 to 23 Oct 1999 (#1999-42)
That is the one I meant ... not Malena.
Thank you very much!
Joe
*********
From: Stephan Schmid <schmidst @PHOLAB.UNIZH.CH>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 22 Oct 1999 to 23 Oct 1999 (#1999-42)
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
I have heard a life performance of "Mano a mano" by the Brazilian Singer
Caetano Veloso, accompanied by solo cello.
Stephan Schmid
>>A friend gave me a copy of a tape that was given to her by a friend of her=
s.
>I am thus at several removes from knowing the performers on this tape,
>but on it is a moving live performance of "Malena" by a male vocalist
>accompanied by solo cello.
>
>Something makes me think that the singer is Italian and not a native
>Spanish speaker, but I don't know why that is.
>
>Anyway ... has anyone else listened to this recording? Know who it is?
>
>Joe Grohens
>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:41:49 +0200
From: "Christoph J.W. Schmees" <cjws @GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: Follower's role
Hola listeros,
after reading this vivid discussion about men leading men I
cannot resist to put my two pence in.
First I want to address the women. What do I, the leader, expect
the follower to do? The answer is: NOTHING.
Recently a beginner woman who had difficulties following a
certain step (which is no challenge at all, technically) asked me
"What do I have to do here?" And I answered, "nothing. Do
nothing. Leave the idea of DOING something. Instead switch to the
idea of LETTING BE." That helped a lot.
The key to heaven for the follower is - well I know the word in
german. It is "Hingabe", or the verb "sich hingeben". I am not
sure about the appropriate english equivalent. It is to be found
somewhere in the field "to give in, give up, yield, devote,
surrender, submit". Perhaps a native speaker who gets the idea I
mean can help me here.
Apart from that the most important item of the woman's
(follower's) attitude is: Don't attempt to predict the next step.
Be prepared to expect a surprise in EVERY step. Even if you are
in very good contact (energetically spoken) with the man and can
feel his intention, you usually don't see what the 'traffic' on
the dancefloor is like in the direction of dance. The man
(leader) may be forced to suddenly change direction and deviate
from what he originally intended. ((And I love to surprise the
woman every now and then just for the fun of it...:-))
Moreover this eases your live: Just 'sit back' (not meant
literally) and relax. It is NOT your job to guess what the man
wants. It is his job to make clear enough what he wants. If you
didn't get it, he didn't make clear enough, apparently. You do
what you feel, and what you don't feel, you don't do. It is easy
for you, and it helps the man to learn to be clear.
As it comes to the pure technique, women don't have to *know*
much. You have to know the 8 count basic (which may be 7 count to
avoid the dreaded back step of the man, or varied in lots of
other ways) and you have to know the molinette to both
directions. The rest, e.g. ochos, can be regarded as parts of the
molinette. But to do it well, it takes a lot of practice, of
course. Or call it dance.
To the men or leaders: I am very much convinced that it is very
rewarding for a man to learn the follower's role as well. My
persomal experience comes from some men's classes I attended.
Actually following was when I really learned to lead. For me
there is an easy explanation: As a follower suddenly I felt "Ah,
to get into this movement I need that help", or "Ah, to
distingiush between this possible continuation and the other one
I need that sort of signal". And to those who didn't try yet: Try
it. It is not only a complete other world, it is another
dimension. A teacher, be he as good as he may be, can tell you a
lot, explain, show, demonstrate. It will never reach that level
of impact your own feeling will have while dancing as a follower.
This experience cannot be replaced by any other means. You don't
have to become a good follower. This would require practice of
the woman's steps, and yes, this can detract you from practising
your own. If you reach a fair beginner's level as a follower,
that is enough for that purpose.
Apart from the plain use of it, it can be fun to dance with
another man. It can be so relaxing and joyfull to be lead by a
good leader. However, I must confess that I an very choosy
(picky) about men to share a dance with, in either role. There
may be one or two out of thirty. But if you have the right
partner it can really be a precious gift. You don't have to be
homo to enjoy it (I am a hetero). So fellow men: Dare it! It's
worth it in may ways.
Gosh, that has become a bit more than two pennies...
Comments very welcome.
cu,
Christoph
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:18:30 +0200
From: "Christoph J.W. Schmees" <cjws @GMX.DE>
Subject: Is it usual?
Hola listeros,
today I want to share what I encountered in San Francisco a few
weeks ago, and I have two questions arising from that.
During our holidays in California and the Bay Area we (my wife
and I) went tango dancing one night. As the tuesday would fit
best into our schedule, we went to "El Valenciano" on September
28. To make a long story short:
The owner refused to put on the ventilators (the air condition
was broken, of course) although asked by several people. It was
way too warm.
The music was 80% terrible. They put on a CD and let it run from
the beginning till the very end! I wouldn't mind if it was Firpo
or De Angelis, but this was low energy music. You can stand five
pieces of it; after ten it's boring and after 15 it kills every
mood. Well, mine at least. Very little tangos worth dancing to,
very little vals or milonga.
Question one: I realized that very few people danced to milonga.
The majority sat down when a milonga came. Is milonga not so
common in the States or the Bay Area, or was it just because of
the scene in this club?
Question two: What I found very strange was that after a dance,
when the next piece of music has begun already, several couples
stay on the dance floor where they stopped the previous dance and
do their "social talk" or whatever you may call it. They do it
standing on the dance floor in the line of dance, thus in the way
of other people wanting to continue to dance. I find this
reckless and inconsiderate. It is not what I think of as social
behaviour. Is it common, or just an oddity of that place or
scene? Can someone of the local residents please comment on this?
Christoph
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:56:59 -0700
From: Ted Crowley <ted.crowley @CERENT.COM>
Subject: Re: Is it usual?
"Christoph J.W. Schmees" wrote:
>
> Question one: I realized that very few people danced to milonga.
> The majority sat down when a milonga came. Is milonga not so
> common in the States or the Bay Area, or was it just because of
> the scene in this club?
At the Bay Area dances I attend, the floor usually fills up for
milongas, though not quite as much as for tangos
>
> Question two: What I found very strange was that after a dance,
> when the next piece of music has begun already, several couples
> stay on the dance floor where they stopped the previous dance and
> do their "social talk" or whatever you may call it. They do it
> standing on the dance floor in the line of dance, thus in the way
> of other people wanting to continue to dance. I find this
> reckless and inconsiderate. It is not what I think of as social
> behaviour. Is it common, or just an oddity of that place or
> scene? Can someone of the local residents please comment on this?
>
I think I would react the same way you did, and not find it normal.
The times I've noticed this it was usually at a place where the
dance floor was relatively empty. Perhaps this makes people think
they aren't "in the way" when they are.
-- Ted
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:32:32 -0700
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Is it usual?
Ted and Christoph,
What you saw is a very usual custom in the milongas in Bs
As. Some people have brought this custom to the US milongas
too. In Bs As, after each song the couples stand together
for some time talking, etc. At a certain time everybody
begins to dance until the next song starts when this takes
place again. Actually, in Bs As it would be a faux pas to
begin the dance immediately when the song begins.
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Ted Crowley <ted.crowley @CERENT.COM>
Subject: Re: Is it usual?
> "Christoph J.W. Schmees" wrote:
> >
> > Question two: What I found very strange was that after a
dance,
> > when the next piece of music has begun already, several
couples
> > stay on the dance floor where they stopped the previous
dance and
> > do their "social talk" or whatever you may call it. They
do it
> > standing on the dance floor in the line of dance, thus
in the way
> > of other people wanting to continue to dance. I find
this
> > reckless and inconsiderate. It is not what I think of as
social
> > behaviour. Is it common, or just an oddity of that place
or
> > scene? Can someone of the local residents please comment
on this?
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:49:00 -0700
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Yet another "Evita" connected tango personality
Hi tangueros y tangueras,
Here is an excerpt from a regional promotion of an A/T event
including workshops by Angel Figueroa:
>Angel is considered one of the top teachers and dancers in
the United States
>and is constantly in demand for his workshops. He has
performed, coached,
>and
>choreographed for the stage and movies, including Deadly
Dance and the film
>Evita.
I have not heard of Mr. Figueroa before but his organizers
are very complimentary of him. I wonder if some of you
fellow listers have heard of him before and would share what
you know. I want to know as much as I can about anybody that
I would travel very far to see.
Thanks,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 02:30:17 +0000
From: Keith Elshaw <elshaw @INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Is It Usual?
Ah, the subtleties of the Tango experience from the Buenos Aires perspective
...
The way people stand and talk through the first part of the song (after
their first together) leaps out to the visitor as a curious phenomenon. Does
it happen anywhere else in the world?
Well, in other parts of the world, one doesn't expect, every time you go
out, to dance until 8 in the morning if you want. You're not trying to cram
your life's expectations into 3 hours. The nights are a lot longer there. In
more ways than one.
One thing about the little talks at the beginning of a song is that it is an
Opportunity to communicate. Formal, impersonal or otherwise, this "breather"
that takes place as the next song ramps up allows the dancer (follower or
leader) to re-orient. This collection process, with it's opportunities to
asses the moment, is surely the mark of a highly developed society.
When you get into their rhythm, by the time the first verse and perhaps
chorus of the song go by, you've adjusted to many things about your moment;
including the mood of the song taking shape. While chatting, it is working
its way into your moment. When you start to dance, because it's like you've
had a chance to think about it with a clear head, the music has a better
chance of eliciting a more poetic response from you.
Surely every person who loves Argentine Tango must get themselves to this
Mecca as often as sacrifices allow. The subtleties only live there.
Keith Elshaw
ToTANGO!
http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw
End of TANGO-L Digest - 25 Oct 1999 to 26 Oct 1999 (#1999-45)
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