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Digest from 24 Oct 1999
to 25 Oct 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 03:00:01 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 24 Oct 1999 to 25 Oct 1999 (#1999-44)
There are 6 messages totalling 582 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Take me to your leader... (3)
2. Men as Followers (2)
3. Tango weekend in DC
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 10:52:47 +0200
From: Jean-Pierre Jacquet <jpjfilms @CYBERCABLE.FR>
Subject: Take me to your leader...
Naomi Bennett wrote: "At Nijmegan, Netherlands last October2, 1999 9
(where you dance from 10 pm to 8 am) , there were many more women there
than men. I saw at
least 4-5 all female couples dancing together most of the night. They
were
great leaders and the dancing was fabulous. There was 1-2 all male
couples too out on the floor. The Netherlands are not hung up
sexually."
Here's an anecdote which took place recently in Paris during a group
class: picture your gang of usual suspects intermediate tango
apprentices, 6 men and 6 women; good size, good ratio male/female/good
deal @ $10 per class. Except that 2 women were an item, and when the
teacher made the standard "switch partners" call, they refused flatly to
do so. So 2 men had to alternately practice with one another. Which is
not anathema per se, as we have been brainwashed long enough on this
list and elsewhere that it is best for leaders to learn to follow and
vice versa, blah blah blah... A week later, same group, same switching
partners routine: this time, the above 2 ladies accepted to switch, but
one of them, the leader of the two in more ways than one, refused to
follow when paired with a man: she would lead the man and he would be
the follower.
Again, this is fun, done in good spirits, with no raised eyebrows re the
sexual issues.
But, let's be realistic: most of us have a limited budget and time frame
to dedicate to our dancing; in the best of worlds, it would be nice to
learn lead and follow for both dancers. In the real world, one goes to a
class to improve on his skills and hope to be a pleasant dancing partner
at the next milonga on the agenda. If I have to practice back ochos,
I'll do it in my home; I would rather not spend my time and money doing
it in a class environment.Chances are that at the local milonga, I won't
be doing many of them.
Which brings me to someone's comment about the economics or exploitation
issue. Perhaps she meant that when a group class is totally imbalanced
in terms of male to female ratio, it would be more honest for the
teacher to forsake part of his loot and tell the extra guys to come back
some other time, as opposed to giving them the yarn about how good it is
for them to spend their money learning the woman's role.
Stupid analogy: if I am to sing a duet out of Don Giovanni, I'm more
than happy to learn the part of Zerlina, but I'm not about to sing it,
with her doing her best baritone to my part.
Jean-Pierre Jacquet
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 13:27:07 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Take me to your leader...
I tend to agree with most of what Jean-pierre says below.
Its is better to do one thing well rather than do two things badly.
If one is bad leader, it need not necessarily be compounded
with being a bad follower as well and vice-versa.
Perhaps in the early days of tango men had to practice with
men because these were the people who had migrated to
cities and since the workforce was mostly men, there were
more men in the city as a whole than women(not just at the
local milonga) and it was a necessity if ten men were
competing for two women.
Of course, if one wants to be a professional, or is already a
good leader/follower, it might be even more enjoyable to
either perfect what one is already doing by understanding
it better from the perspective of the otherside or to
be able to do both sides equally well. Afterall, one is looking
for new challenges.
As for myself, when I am the leader, once in a while I might
do the back ochos or do a little bit of following(without changing
the hold) granting the follower something along the lines of
limited autonomy. It is true that following when one is used to
leading is hard -- I am able to take only one step every
two beat(a choice available only in AT). At these moments
I also keep my fingures crossed hoping that the newly
anointed leader for the moment will keep eye on the traffic
and not let me crash into someone behind my back and
blame me for being a bad leader. Most of the time it has
a happy ending.
Maybe, when I am better at leading, I might vigorously
argue that leaders are not good leaders until they are
great followers as well and admit myself into the
exclusive club of ambidextrous(is there a word like
this which means one is a good leader as well as a
follower or is the concept entirely new and needs a
new word to name it?) argentine milnagera(o)s.
Until then it is one step at a time, I guess.
rajan.
Original Message-----
From: Jean-Pierre Jacquet <jpjfilms @cybercable.fr>
To: TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu <TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu>
Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 10:53 AM
Subject: Take me to your leader...
>Naomi Bennett wrote: "At Nijmegan, Netherlands last October2, 1999 9
>(where you dance from 10 pm to 8 am) , there were many more women there
>than men. I saw at
>least 4-5 all female couples dancing together most of the night. They
>were
>great leaders and the dancing was fabulous. There was 1-2 all male
>couples too out on the floor. The Netherlands are not hung up
>sexually."
>
>Here's an anecdote which took place recently in Paris during a group
>class: picture your gang of usual suspects intermediate tango
>apprentices, 6 men and 6 women; good size, good ratio male/female/good
>deal @ $10 per class. Except that 2 women were an item, and when the
>teacher made the standard "switch partners" call, they refused flatly
to
>do so. So 2 men had to alternately practice with one another. Which is
>not anathema per se, as we have been brainwashed long enough on this
>list and elsewhere that it is best for leaders to learn to follow and
>vice versa, blah blah blah... A week later, same group, same switching
>partners routine: this time, the above 2 ladies accepted to switch, but
>one of them, the leader of the two in more ways than one, refused to
>follow when paired with a man: she would lead the man and he would be
>the follower.
>Again, this is fun, done in good spirits, with no raised eyebrows re
the
>sexual issues.
>
>But, let's be realistic: most of us have a limited budget and time
frame
>to dedicate to our dancing; in the best of worlds, it would be nice to
>learn lead and follow for both dancers. In the real world, one goes to
a
>class to improve on his skills and hope to be a pleasant dancing
partner
>at the next milonga on the agenda. If I have to practice back ochos,
>I'll do it in my home; I would rather not spend my time and money doing
>it in a class environment.Chances are that at the local milonga, I
won't
>be doing many of them.
>
>Which brings me to someone's comment about the economics or
exploitation
>issue. Perhaps she meant that when a group class is totally imbalanced
>in terms of male to female ratio, it would be more honest for the
>teacher to forsake part of his loot and tell the extra guys to come
back
>some other time, as opposed to giving them the yarn about how good it
is
>for them to spend their money learning the woman's role.
>
>Stupid analogy: if I am to sing a duet out of Don Giovanni, I'm more
>than happy to learn the part of Zerlina, but I'm not about to sing it,
>with her doing her best baritone to my part.
>
>Jean-Pierre Jacquet
>
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>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 18:58:17 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Men as Followers
Original Message-----
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @earthlink.net>
To: TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu <TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu>
Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 11:09 PM
Subject: Men as Followers
[ stuff deleted ]
>A good way to determine which method is "better" would be to look at
the
>results. The point Daniel Trenner makes is that the older milongueros,
who
>learned by dancing with men for months before they were "allowed" to
dance
>with a woman at a milonga, are usually excellent dancers. They
understand
This could also be to do with the fact that they are 'older'(I guess
this is meant
as years of practice and not just age)?
How one learns to lead well, i.e., whether by just leading
or by both leading and following would depend on how the
teacher choose to teach it. Perhaps Daniel Trenner is good
at teaching how to lead well by showing both leading and
following. This is his method. And just because his students
are better does not necessarily imply that it was because
of the method since it could be just as well be because he is
an excellent teacher. There might be other teachers who would
teach how to lead well by just showing how to lead.
If leading+following were a good method, then most of the
teachers would choose to teach it that way since they also
would want to be good teachers.
Unless, ofcourse if this is extremely hard for a teacher to teach
both leading and following. And this does not seem to be the
case since most teachers do teach leading to leaders and
following to followers so can potential teach both to either.
[stuff deleted ]
> spending an hour or so just helping the men learn something. I don't
mind
> being the tango equivalent of a crash test dummy if it helps my
partner
> learn, but I'm not happy if I also paid full price for the class.
(And this
> happens a LOT.)
This is true. I am also one of those who sometimes asks the partner.
This would still be true even if men were dancing with men. Even more
true is the fact that most leaders are more than willing to show steps
to the follower (part of the job) most of the time without scowling.
rajan.
>Best to all,
>
>Melinda
>
>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________
>> CoolMail(tm). Hear. There. Everywhere.(sm)
>> E-mail by phone - http://www.planetarymotion.com
>>
>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 13:05:34 -0400
From: Jorge Navarro <jorge @XMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango weekend in DC
Stephen Leung wrote:
"Why go to Argentina when WE are bringing Argentina to
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Thursday November 18 - At DCDC
They will appear at the regular Thursday class in
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=====================
Sent by Xmail
www.Xmail.com
Get your free mail account at www.xmail.com
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:38:52 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Take me to your leader...
>Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM> wrote:
>Perhaps in the early days of tango men had to practice with
>men because these were the people who had migrated to
>cities and since the workforce was mostly men, there were
>more men in the city as a whole than women(not just at the
>local milonga) and it was a necessity if ten men were
>competing for two women.
You refer to the early 1900s? Most of the old milongueros living
today learned 40 years later when male/female ratios had stabilized,
so their anecdotes are about the neighborhood clubs and practice
sessions of the Golden Era Tango.
There are many stories in tango, but it seems almost universally
reported that men learned with other men doing the follower's role
first. I haven't heard anyone dispute this. Not that all old dancers
in Argentina are good, but the ones who really got good, did so in
the practice sessions with other men before going out to the dance
halls. They say that it was the only way to win dances with the
women, and also that the other gentlemen wouldn't allow them on the
floor until they had some reasonable floor-craft and skill.
We dropped two generations of tango dancers in the 60s & 70s, so the
generation of the revival is the first one learning Men with Women.
(The story is that nice girls just wouldn't show up at the man's
practice. Perhaps some not-nice girls did?)
The other unusual thing of today is that there are more women than
men at the milongas and there are more women at each skill level, in
particular at the adv-beginner and intermediate levels. If this were
reversed, women would have more and better choices. One way to
achieve this is to have more good women leaders; I mean, why dance
with a guy who hasn't worked on his craft when you can have a better
dance with a woman?
Brutal? Maybe, and some guys get really angry when they lose
potential partners to a woman. But I notice that it is the women who
take more workshops and more private lessons.
We have another inequality today. In our culture more women than men
studied ballet and other dances in their youth, while the guys were
out playing sports. Sports teach some body skill, but we have the
reverse of the 1940s Argentine situation: on average women arrive at
tango with better dance skills than men.
This even has an effect on the style of tango. If in the old days the
men were the flashy dancers with lots of decorations, today it is the
women who first learn to decorate (As a beginner I remember their
impatience with me as I struggled to navigate the room while they
wanted me to "give them space to do more decorations".)
In this argument we are mainly getting complaints from men that they
don't want to dance with other men. The argument is two-fold:
(1) Guys don't WANT to dance with guys at a milonga, and
(2) Guys don't NEED to dance with guys at a practice, and it might
slow down their learning.
I accept and understand the first one. This is a dance of romance and
passion. If you are heterosexual, you usually wish to play this game
with someone of the opposite sex; if not heterosexual, well, you may
shock some people, but perhaps they are just Q.E.S. (Quite Easily
Shocked).
This discussion about doing the follower's role is not about creating
gender confusion. Along with Melinda I have seen much evidence that
practicing the follower role REALLY helps with the leader role, and
never have I seen that it slows down your learning.
I see a lot of leaders struggling on the dance floor, clearly unaware
of the suffering and awkwardness they are creating for their
followers. Being the follower even once is worth a thousand
explanations.
>...
>As for myself, when I am the leader, once in a while I might
>do the back ochos or do a little bit of following (without changing
>the hold) granting the follower something along the lines of
>limited autonomy. ...
>Jean-Pierre Jacquet <jpjfilms @cybercable.fr> wrote:
>But, let's be realistic: most of us have a limited budget and time frame
>to dedicate to our dancing; in the best of worlds, it would be nice to
>learn lead and follow for both dancers. In the real world, one goes to a
>class to improve on his skills and hope to be a pleasant dancing partner
>at the next milonga on the agenda. If I have to practice back ochos,
>I'll do it in my home; I would rather not spend my time and money doing
>it in a class environment.Chances are that at the local milonga, I won't
>be doing many of them.
Here I question your instruction.
There is a lot of fundamental leader vocabulary that requires the man
to do ochos. Why isn't your teacher giving you this material?
For example, you can lead the follower in front ochos while you
receive her steps in four different ways: back ochos and front ochos
in parallel system, side-to-side in crossed system and side-to-side
in parallel system. With back ochos there are three receptions
(unless you are Chicho who does four). With crossed or parallel
sacadas you have similar possibilities.
These elements are really difficult to put into your dance if you
never do the follower part. Timing, grace & balance in ochos are all
learned much, much faster by doing the follower's role.
To go out on a shaky limb, I would suggest that you can save six
months of learning by putting effort into practicing the follower's
role.
Regarding the "economics" of teaching the men to learn follower's
material...this argument is backwards. It is safer and better paid to
foster a male-female romantic atmosphere in class. Those teachers
instructing students to switch roles are taking the risky path which
must mean they actually believe it helps the learning process.
(Thanks to JC Dill and/or Robinne for this point?).
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
Chautauqua Publishing / Ragtime Interiors
"On-Line Arts & Crafts Movement Resource Directory."
(303) 388 - 2560
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime/
http://www.tango.org/dance/
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 00:32:31 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Men as Followers
Original Message -----
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @earthlink.net>
> [ stuff deleted ]
>
> >A good way to determine which method is "better" would be to look at
> the
> >results. The point Daniel Trenner makes is that the older milongueros,
> who
> >learned by dancing with men for months before they were "allowed" to
> dance
> >with a woman at a milonga, are usually excellent dancers.
>
> This could also be to do with the fact that they are 'older'(I guess
> this is meant
> as years of practice and not just age)?
Yes, you could be correct, but that would factor out the people who spend
years trying to learn tango, and never do - aren't there any of these in
your tango community?
> How one learns to lead well, i.e., whether by just leading
> or by both leading and following would depend on how the
> teacher choose to teach it. Perhaps Daniel Trenner is good
> at teaching how to lead well by showing both leading and
> following. This is his method. And just because his students
> are better does not necessarily imply that it was because
> of the method since it could be just as well be because he is
> an excellent teacher. There might be other teachers who would
> teach how to lead well by just showing how to lead.
After one tango week and one weekend with Daniel, we emphatically believe
him to be a gifted teacher AND a man whose love for tango is evident. He
communicates this by the respect he brings to it in sharing its traditions
and history. This is something not many of the Argentines bother to do. I
don't know if that is because they think we are not interested, or because
they really don't want to share their patrimony, or because we are all blind
to our own culture, so it does not occur to them to do so.
> If leading+following were a good method, then most of the
> teachers would choose to teach it that way since they also
> would want to be good teachers.
That's not necessarily true. There was a fair amount of resistance to this
on the part of the men. It would take guts and persistance to do this on a
regular basis, and risk driving students away. Again, he does not insist,
merely encourages. In a message on this topic Alberto quotes a weekend
participant who did not like Daniel's teaching and thought him overbearing.
While we are each entitled to our own opinion, I think most people who have
experienced his teaching would find that accusation ludicrous. But a man
who was uncomfortable at being asked to do something new might well respond
that way. (As a woman, I found the men's responses VERY interesting, and
often funny.)
> Unless, ofcourse if this is extremely hard for a teacher to teach
> both leading and following. And this does not seem to be the
> case since most teachers do teach leading to leaders and
> following to followers so can potential teach both to either.
Yes, but teaching leading to followers and following to leaders is a very
different thing. We inevitably bring to the process whatever experience we
already have with "our" role in the dance. It is difficult to make the
mental and physical shift.
>
> [stuff deleted ]
>
> > spending an hour or so just helping the men learn something ......
> > learn, but I'm not happy if I also paid full price for the class.
> (And this happens a LOT.)
> This is true. I am also one of those who sometimes asks the partner.
> This would still be true even if men were dancing with men.
I disagree. If the class is mostly material for the men, they would benefit
from taking turns leading and following it. That would cause them to learn
more quickly (IMHO). How well can they lead if they have no idea what it
feels like to be led? So then if the class is mostly "steps" for the
leaders, followers might as well skip it and wait to be led at the next
milonga. We can save our time and money for classes on balance, turning,
posture, etc., which equip us to follow whatever is led.
Even more > true is the fact that most leaders are more than willing to show
steps
> to the follower (part of the job) most of the time without scowling.
I thought the leaders "job" was to LEAD the follower.... good lead and
follow should not require "showing the steps" (much less while scowling!)
:-)
Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
Melinda
End of TANGO-L Digest - 24 Oct 1999 to 25 Oct 1999 (#1999-44)
*************************************************************