The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 23 Oct 1999
to 24 Oct 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 03:00:03 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 23 Oct 1999 to 24 Oct 1999 (#1999-43)
There are 6 messages totalling 244 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. TANGO-L Digest - 22 Oct 1999 to 23 Oct 1999 (#1999-42)
2. tango community survey
3. Men as Followers (2)
4. Florindo Sassone
5. Men as Follower, Women as Leaders
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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:11:22 +0200
From: Stephan Schmid <schmidst @PHOLAB.UNIZH.CH>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 22 Oct 1999 to 23 Oct 1999 (#1999-42)
I have heard a life performance of "Mano a mano" by the Brazilian Singer
Caetano Veloso, accompanied by solo cello.
Stephan Schmid
>>A friend gave me a copy of a tape that was given to her by a friend of her=
s.
>I am thus at several removes from knowing the performers on this tape,
>but on it is a moving live performance of "Malena" by a male vocalist
>accompanied by solo cello.
>
>Something makes me think that the singer is Italian and not a native
>Spanish speaker, but I don't know why that is.
>
>Anyway ... has anyone else listened to this recording? Know who it is?
>
>Joe Grohens
>
___________________________________________________
Dr. Stephan Schmid
Phonetisches Laboratorium der Universit=E4t Zuerich
=46reiestrasse 36
CH-8032 Z=FCrich, Switzerland
Tel. ++41 1 634 30 01
=46ax 634 49 68
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:41:58 +0800
From: Kace Ong <kace @PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: Re: tango community survey
Our tango community in Singapore bootstrapped from zero six
months ago into a fairly regular crowd of 20-30 people as a
result of a single tango workshop by a visiting teacher.
Despite having no tanguero base, no local teacher, and
little exposure to what real "tango" is (most people here
only knows ballroom tango), a small group of 20-30 regulars
has sprung up.
This number is still too small to become a sustainable
community of dancers, so we have been doing active
"marketing", screening videos and giving talks and
demonstrations to recruit more people, and trying to
expose the media to it. Lots of time and money was spent
doing non-dancing activities: procuring CDs and videos,
negotiationg with studios and clubs, finding teachers
from abroad, etc.
I think our experience is fairly typical of most Asian
cities where tango is not a familiar culture. Without
the dedication of a hardworking group of tangueros, it
would be almost impossible to make it happen.
I wish there is some tango community "starter kit" I
could buy to make all these work easier :-) But now
I can finally dance tango twice a week without
flying to the States, so I am happy.
Kace
http://home.pacific.net.sg/~kace/tango
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:31:36 -0400
From: Jeny Sauson <jenysouson @COOLMAIL.NET>
Subject: Re: Men as Followers
I have read some of this type of messages in the past and it seems to be always the same confusion about how to learn tango.
It is very clear that some teachers in Argentina and some milongeros in Argentina learn the way it is describe in Michael's e-mail.
But, the point is that there are also a huge number of people that didn't learn that way. What also I think it is imply in the letter, is that the old forms of learning tango are better than how it is teach now, and of course I think this is not the case at all.
Also I would like to stress that it is very wrong to say that men in Argentina learn to dance with other men. I think that this idea of teaching has been always exploited economically around the world.
Best regards
Jeny Sauson
____________________________________________
CoolMail(tm). Hear. There. Everywhere.(sm)
E-mail by phone - http://www.planetarymotion.com
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:58:19 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Men as Followers
Original Message -----
From: Jeny
> I have read some of this type of messages in the past and it seems to be
always the same confusion about how to learn tango.
> It is very clear that some teachers in Argentina and some milongeros in
Argentina learn the way it is describe in Michael's e-mail.
> But, the point is that there are also a huge number of people that didn't
learn that way. What also I think it is imply in the letter, is that the old
forms of learning tango are better than how it is teach now, and of course I
think this is not the case at all.
A good way to determine which method is "better" would be to look at the
results. The point Daniel Trenner makes is that the older milongueros, who
learned by dancing with men for months before they were "allowed" to dance
with a woman at a milonga, are usually excellent dancers. They understand
the challenges of both man and woman. The hours they spent practicing their
own balance, ochos, etc. makes them both better dancers AND better leaders.
In my tango community we don't see men practicing this way, and I think it
shows in their dancing. We DO see women practicing front and back ochos
across the floor, embellishments, walking, etc - you can not be a good
follower without doing this! I don't think there is any "of course" to the
idea that new methods are better than these.
> Also I would like to stress that it is very wrong to say that men in
Argentina learn to dance with other men. I think that this idea of teaching
has been always exploited economically around the world.
Sorry, I don't understand this point at all. What does this have to do with
economic exploitation?
The history of tango in Bs As indicates that men did, in fact, learn this
way - at least in the past. Daniel also makes the point that TODAY"S best
tangueros are those who come to tango already expert in dance (ballet, jazz,
modern) or in athletics. Therefore they already have mastered in their
bodies the challenges of balance, rapid, smooth movement, agility, etc.
Take a class with any of these dancers and you can see the elegance of their
movements - and experience the difficulty of imitating them!
Daniel merely points out that you can learn either way, but practicing with
a same-sex partner accellerates the process. I watched the men struggling
to do ochos with each other in this class, and got a clear idea of what he
was talking about. Then I worked on leading another woman in grapevines,
and really started to think about the process in a new way. I should say
there was considerable (albeit quiet) resistance to this idea, mostly by the
men, at first. The women are less "threatened" by this scenario, and
started in quickly. He just kept quietly encouraging us all to try it and
see if the practice made us better. I believe it did. His years of
teaching and learning in Buenos Aires and around the world tell HIM it does.
It does not "cost" any more to do this, and it has a proven track record.
Why the resistance?
I'd also like to say how much I appreciated Daniel's classes for another
reason. I have commented here before about paying for a class and then
spending an hour or so just helping the men learn something. I don't mind
being the tango equivalent of a crash test dummy if it helps my partner
learn, but I'm not happy if I also paid full price for the class. (And this
happens a LOT.) Daniel's classes were FULL of work for both leaders and
followers. We were constantly being offered new material to work with at
our own levels. It was the best workshop we have taken in a long time. He
is a gifted teacher, and we hope he comes back soon.
Best to all,
Melinda
>
>
> ____________________________________________
> CoolMail(tm). Hear. There. Everywhere.(sm)
> E-mail by phone - http://www.planetarymotion.com
>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:52:22 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Florindo Sassone
I have fallen in love with the music of Florindo Sassone, both for dancing
and for listening.
I was told this man played in Carlos Di Sarli band. I was wondering if Carlos
Di Sarli's band got it's sound from this man, or did Florindo Sassone take
Carlos Di Sarli's sound with him when he left.
Either way I can't get enough, and would like to hear any comments
If any one has any CDs of his for sale please contact me immediately
I am
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:47:46 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Men as Follower, Women as Leaders
I have been learning to lead recently and my male partner has been learning
to follow. It has great benefits for both of us.
For me, I get to experiment with my musicality and expression. It is a
rush to press my will and desire forward with my partner. It is wonderful
that we get to be so androgenous with each other. He gets to experience me
as the aggressor/leader and to follow my lead. It is quite an experience.
We were just recently shown how to exchange lead and follow without
changing our hand positions with the other. This will be even more
exciting as we learn to lead and follow within one dance and it will be a
observant person to see who is doing what to the other. It is a tremendous
sexual exchange that charges up the dance and makes it all new. (Daniel
Trenner has a video on this but they change hand positions)
I have been taking beginner tango lessons in group where my partner and I
don't change partners throughout the lesson. The teacher and students are
understanding. Most of my creative leading is done privately now but at
some point when I'm better, I will be willing do it this exchange at a
milonga.
At Nijmegan, Netherlands last October2, 1999 9 (where you dance from 10 pm
to 8 am) , there were many more women there than men. I saw at least 4-5
all female couples dancing together most of the night. They were great
leaders and the dancing was fabulous. There was 1-2 all male couples too
out on the floor. The Netherlands are not hung up sexually.
Yes, in general women are better followers by pure experience and practise
but I get a charge out of leading the men! Perhaps, someday, I will be
able to make them melt!
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
End of TANGO-L Digest - 23 Oct 1999 to 24 Oct 1999 (#1999-43)
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