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Digest from 17 Oct 1999
to 18 Oct 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 03:00:00 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 17 Oct 1999 to 18 Oct 1999 (#1999-37)
There are 8 messages totalling 584 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. my first class - follower's role (and piropos)
2. men as followers, was: Re: Women can be great followers with the right
man!
3. EU-W Ski + Tango
4. men as followers (2)
5. Men as followers
6. Nacionality of Musicians, dancers, lyricists, actors.
7. Your journey.
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:09:27 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: my first class - follower's role (and piropos)
So much has already been said-- and I have not read all of them.
Anyways:
Original Message-----
From: emanuela <grecu @novara.alpcom.it>
To: TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu <TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 2:04 PM
Subject: my first class - follower's role
>
>me that the best results of the movements depended basically just on
me,
>on my feet position exp.
So, this is independence.
> So it seemed to me that the leader has power,
>and the follower must be perfect.
>I found all the lesson very mortifying, because the teacher continued
to
>address to me as the guilty for the little problems we had in walking,
and I
>had a strong tentation to leave.
An anecdote: A few months ago, I asked one of the girls to dance and she
said she was a beginner--and I said it was ok. As we started dancing,
she said she did not mind me commenting on her dance. And so, I started
to make a remark here and there. I guess mostly about her having to
cross
her feet..and things seemed to be getting worse. And I could feel she
was
getting tense. I was getting bit tense too...since I was unable to get
her to
do something that was simple.
Finally, as a way out, I said what I considered a platitude
but had no choice at the moment: " lets forget about the
right thing. Lets just dance and be comfortable and then
the right things will automatically happen" and indeed, I could
feel her relaxing her back almost immediately in the palm
of my hand -- something she had tensed up all along.
Perhaps until then she felt as if I had infact a knife held
to her back and was saying: " now cross your feet, or
else!". Things improved after that and finally we even
managed to smile at each other, rather cautiously.
I guess tenseness in one of the reasons why a new
beginner who might otherwise be a good dancer not
follow properly--because she can not feel the lead!
I suppose, for a good leader this would be a great
and entirely apporpriate occassion to administer a
proper piropo to lighten things up.
>same. I hope I will learn soon some "indipendent" steps !
Seasoned milongueras who have been to BsAs many times
and would perhaps claim that never even in there dreams
would they make a wrong step occassionally take over
while dancing.
This has happend to me once or twice. The *silent* conversation
implicit in what happens is as follows: "Ok, you asked me to do
an ocho, and now I have started to make it. I am standing on
the tip of my toe-nail on one foot while I have my other foot off the
floor and am looking for a spot on floor that is worthy enough
receive it. Now, while I am managing all my weight on my own,
I am leaning on you a bit since I would want to be able to follow
your lead. I know it has taken a beat or two while I am trying to
find the spot -- but if you move, I am going to fall on my face flat....
and *you* will be responsible for it! Anyways, while I have the
foot off the floor, why waste the opportunity? I might as well be
doing a few adornments with it..." All a leader can do in such
circumstances is to stand like a pole and be in the partner
holding pattern and wait for the landing. Doing anything else
is an invitation for a rebuke.
>Today I watched at Sally Potter's "Tango lesson" film, and at the end
she
>said: "I can't follow because I personally am used to be the leader".
While the leader may ask a particular person to dance with him, most of
the time he will only ask those who already indicate they want to be
asked! So, although outwardly it would seem that follower is passive,
the leading a leader from whereever he is to walkover and ask -- it is
almost as if the follower has a remote control. It is the same in
dance, I think -- while the leader has all the freedom, he will only be
able to exercise it as much as the follower will allow and the follower
can usurp the rest if she wants to--once she knows how.
Indeed, I think how good a leader is should be judged not by how good
his ochos are, how perfect his sense of rhythm or how exact his
argentine triple axels are -- but soley on the redness of cheeks of the
follower at the end of the dance(bonus points for tears of joy, if there
are any:-). If that is not the case, what is the leader promising the
follower
when he asks her to dance? Certainly he is not asking her to dance with
him and be his prop while he does whatever he does?
>I am wondering: which are the concepts I have not understand that will
>make bearable the follower's role?
>
On another occassion, when I danced with someone who clamied she
was very good at ballroom dance, the one thing that I noticed is similar
to what could be an 'accent' -- doing a step differently than it should
be
done because the lead is similar to a step in another dance she is
familiar with. This requires some un-learning/patience, I guess--that
could be frustrating.
rajan.
>Emanuela
>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:30:00 -0700
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: men as followers,
was: Re: Women can be great followers with the right man!
Original Message -----
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
> What Controversy?
>
> By all accounts, the present generation of tango dancers
(since the
> 1980s) is the first one learning tango in coed
circumstances. All of
> the older Argentine male dancers report having learned in
men's dance
> practices in which they had to do the female part,
sometimes for many
> months.
Practicing the tango with another man is one thing, dancing
as a follower in a milonga is another. Also, while this
*practicing a follower for many months* might have been more
than just an anecdotal story of the old days, it is
certainly not a practice today.
> My single most important tango lesson came in three steps
led by the
> young Pablo Pugliese. "Oh! So THAT's what I'm supposed to
feel like!"
Of course, that is an epiphany that all of us have at one
time or another. It is part of learning and getting
instruction in an effective way.
> The single best thing a leader can do is practice the
followers role.
> It teaches grace, sensitivity, technique, and many other
skills that
> help your leading.
I disagree completely. The single most important thing that
a leader can do is to practice being a leader. Performing
the mans own movements can teach "grace, sensitivity,
technique, and many other skills..". While it is useful for
a man to learn the followers part, it is not the most
important thing. If it were so, all the followers would
automatically be good leaders and this is simply not so.
> It would make an interesting survey:
>
> Of the good leaders in your community, how many of them
are at least
> "passable" the followers role, and how many are completely
unable to
> do it?
All the *good* leaders can do a passable approximation of
the followers part but very few can actually dance that way
and if they do they don't do it as well as a woman who is
used to doing the follower's part. The only exceptions are a
few women who have learned to lead well. Of course, IMHO,
their follower's skills suffer if they dance principally as
*leaders*.
Manuel
www.tango-rio.com
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:59:23 +0200
From: Jean-Baptiste De Gandt <jbdegandt @NORDNET.FR>
Subject: EU-W Ski + Tango
Eric Jorissen and Betty Bolks from Nijmegen and Groningen in
Netherland will give workshops at 2000 m alt. in Switzerland . A two hou=
rs
a day lesson , followed by tango night, with only 30 advanced dancers fro=
m
all over the world .English and French are "official" languages .And ski =
of
course , with any language you want !
Week from 19 to 26 of february
Possible to subscribe without partner
Answer me if you would like me to send you more details=20
Jean-Baptiste
"Le chat n'est pas l=E0 ..."
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:43:45 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: men as followers
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
> > What Controversy?
> >
> > By all accounts, the present generation of tango dancers
>(since the
> > 1980s) is the first one learning tango in coed
>circumstances. All of
> > the older Argentine male dancers report having learned in
>men's dance
> > practices in which they had to do the female part,
>sometimes for many
> > months.
>
>Practicing the tango with another man is one thing, dancing
>as a follower in a milonga is another. Also, while this
>*practicing a follower for many months* might have been more
>than just an anecdotal story of the old days, it is
>certainly not a practice today.
...
>All the *good* leaders can do a passable approximation of
>the followers part but very few can actually dance that way
>and if they do they don't do it as well as a woman who is
>used to doing the follower's part. The only exceptions are a
>few women who have learned to lead well. Of course, IMHO,
>their follower's skills suffer if they dance principally as
>*leaders*.
>
>Manuel Patino <white95r @hotmail.com>
It also seems these days as if the guys needn't be gentlemen nor do
even have to work very hard at there craft to get a dance partner. I
don't think this is necessarily progress.
In our community, 90 percent of the decent leaders learned both parts
at the start. This isn't the same as being good at the follow nor
even dancing it socially very much.
I maintain doing the follower's part will help your leading (a lot),
while you maintain it will actually hurt?
I still don't see the controversy you referred to, unless it is
simply the prejudice that "Men SHOULDN'T dance with men; and women
SHOULDN'T dance with women."
For me there is simply no question. The more I get smooth with ochos,
the smoother my movements as a leader and the more synchronized they
become with the follower. The decorations of the follower translate
easily. This doesn't mean I stop practicing and learning the leader's
part.
I claim this is true for experienced leader, but the really dramatic
benefit comes for beginners.
Since tango is a dance of the body, kinesthetic learning is much,
much more rapid than intellectual learning. The "inside" aspects of
tango are so much easier to feel if you actually FEEL them.
Lots of people learn tango externally, choreographing steps and
patterns. And lots of people continue to dance "externally", never
really learning to connect and to communicate.
"Beware those who tango but do not dance."
Is this the same for the women?
Here is where we return to your original posting that women can
follow good leaders. The followers role is "easy" to pick up if you
have several dozen (or several thousand) very experienced leaders.
The reverse isn't true, especially in Buenos Aires. The good
followers adapt to every leader, no matter how he dances, which
doesn't give the proper feedback.
So, followers don't require learning the leader's role (although
there are a number of very useful things they can learn), but the
leaders have a very hard time feeling what tango is like
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
Chautauqua Publishing / Ragtime Interiors
"On-Line Arts & Crafts Movement Resource Directory."
(303) 388 - 2560
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime/
http://www.tango.org/dance/
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:31:34 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Men as followers
I like hearing all the stories of men being the followers.
Being the instructor I had to learn both rolls.
I'm very happy I had to do this and really feel it is beneficial to learn.
When I started to learn the tango, I remember trying to make a lady do the
cross or an ocho and not giving the lady the time needed. Only after I
started doing the followers roll did I realize how much time the followers
needed to do these moves, and even today I don't give enough time for the
followers to do their embellishment that they might like to do. There are
times the man could look good, but just as many times you want to give the
lady her time so she may shine and look beautiful also.
A couple of weeks ago I was voted the best female dancer (they really meant
follower) in Cleveland. I was embarrassed at first, but now I don't feel that
way. I now can see my ability in learning to dance tango increasing in speed,
and my execution of leading getting sharper.
Daniel Trenner was just here in Cleveland last week, and he explained how
people learned the tango in the early years. How the men would not be allowed
into the dance halls unless the committee at the door felt they could lead a
lady around the dance floor without crashing into any one. If they didn't get
in they had to go back to school, where they danced with other men till they
got the lead right. The lady was the reward the man got when he learned how
to lead.
For practice reason I have no problem working one on one with another man,
but you won't see me with a man for the reason of dancing, especially when a
women is available.
I encourage all men to try taking on the roll of the follower for the process
of learning. And I also encourage ladies to learn the job of leading for the
same reason. When you have tried both rolls you will also have more respect
for what the other person has to do to make this dance so enjoyable.
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:33:26 -0700
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: men as followers
Original Message -----
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: men as followers
<Snip>
> It also seems these days as if the guys needn't be
gentlemen nor do
> even have to work very hard at there craft to get a dance
partner. I
> don't think this is necessarily progress.
This is not true everywhere, maybe it is the case in some
communities but good dancers (women or men) can be and often
are choosy. Women need not dance with boors if they respect
themselves. As I said before, if you want to be asked to
dance, learn to dance.
> I still don't see the controversy you referred to, unless
it is
> simply the prejudice that "Men SHOULDN'T dance with men;
and women
> SHOULDN'T dance with women."
Tom, I can tell you that dancing with same sex partners,
particularly men with men is controversial in many places.
I'm not talking about practice or lessons but about milongas
or social dances. You'll not see men dancing with men as
women in Bs As. The same is true in other places that I've
been. With remarkably few exceptions and done generally
among friends (as a lark), men do not dance with men. I've
noticed that women do tend to dance with women more often
and it seems to be more acceptable, however, it is still
controversial and not generally accepted or encouraged.
> For me there is simply no question. The more I get smooth
with ochos,
Snip
I'm not saying that leaders should not understand the
followers role. I also agree that the more one practices
back ochos, etc. The smoother one gets and the better one
dances, etc.
> Since tango is a dance of the body, kinesthetic learning
is much,
> much more rapid than intellectual learning. The "inside"
aspects of
> tango are so much easier to feel if you actually FEEL
them.
Of course this is true. You'll get no argument from me about
that!
> Lots of people learn tango externally, choreographing
steps and
> patterns. And lots of people continue to dance
"externally", never
> really learning to connect and to communicate.
That too is true, but not for the good dancers. The better
dancers are well beyond any choreography or "external"
dance.
> "Beware those who tango but do not dance."
Yeah, they'll step on your feet or worse ;-)
> Is this the same for the women?
Of course, why not?
> Here is where we return to your original posting that
women can
> follow good leaders. The followers role is "easy" to pick
up if you
> have several dozen (or several thousand) very experienced
leaders.
>
> The reverse isn't true, especially in Buenos Aires. The
good
> followers adapt to every leader, no matter how he dances,
which
> doesn't give the proper feedback.
Sure they'll adapt, for one dance out of a tanda maybe. The
feedback is actually quite clear. If you are not a good
leader you'll not get many dances ;-) I've notice pretty
much the same in other places too. Local women dancers (if
they are good) can be and are quite choosy.
> So, followers don't require learning the leader's role
(although
> there are a number of very useful things they can learn),
but the
> leaders have a very hard time feeling what tango is like
I agree with you on this also. My post was not argument
against these good principles and accurate observations. I
also did not say that it was useless for the leaders to
understand the follower's role (even by experiencing this
first hand). What I said was that the single most important
thing a man (leader) can do in tango dancing is *not* learn
to be a follower, but to be a leader. I also still insist
that same sex dancing at milongas and parties is generally
controversial, particularly of men with men.
Manuel
www.tango-rio.com
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:08:25 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Nacionality of Musicians, dancers, lyricists, actors.
Sergio wrote,
> When it comes to Musicians, dancers, writers of lyrics, actors and any
other
> person related to tango one finds that all of them, except rare examples
> were Argentineans for at least one generation or more.
>Ricardo Klapwijk asked:
>Sergio,
>From which written (?) sources do you have this?
>Ricardo
There are many encyclopedic works in reference to the history of the
Argentine Tango, the musicians, lyricists, dancers and actors. Their
biographies are well documented.
Jose Gobello is perhaps one of the wisest and most knowledgeable writers of
the history of the tango and lunfardo, (slang of the city of Buenos Aires).
The Academia Portena del Lunfardo is also an important source of information
with respect to studies of the popular culture of Bs.As.
Newspaper articles, Critica, September 22 1913- one of Buenos Aires mass
circulation newspapers, printed an article signed by "Viejo Tanguero"
describing the origins of tango in 1877; danced by African-Argentines in the
district of Mondongo(barrio de Monserrat).
Reviewing those biographies one sees that most of the important figures of
Argentine Tango were native Argentineans, born and raised in the city of
Bs.As.. Some were born in Uruguay or in Europe; like Carlos Gardel (in
France),or Francisco Canaro in Uruguay but they grew up and received their
education in Buenos Aires. There are few that were native Italians or even
Brazilians.
We should always remember that the Uruguayans consider the Argentine Tango
as their national dance; this is with undeniable merit since tango evolved
in Uruguay at the same time as it did in Argentina.Uruguay contributed
enormously to Tango. The best known tango, La Cumparsita was written by an
Uruguayan.
Few examples more:
Eduardo Arolas, born in Bs.As. Feb-25-1892. Son of French immigrants. Wrote
more than one hundred tangos. Derecho Viejo, Rawson, Comme il fault, El
Marne, La Cachila, etc.
Agustin Bardi, born in Las Flores, Provincia de Bs.As. Aug-13-1884. Wrote
beautiful tangos like, Gallo Ciego y Lorenzo.
Enrique Cadicamo, Miguel Calo, Pascual Contursi, etc, etc, were all
Argentineans.
You may also consult the archives of the Academia del Tango, situated next
to Cafe Tortoni in Avenida de Mayo.
Finally by reading their names one cannot help to notice that most of them
were of Italian ancestry; a nation that has always produced great musicians
and artists of all genres.
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:51:34 -0400
From: Don Kelley <don.kelley @ATT.NET>
Subject: Your journey.
Emanuela d'Italia,
Real pleasure is reading your initial listing and to the replies that it
raised on the Tango-List. Your misgivings gave me pause. I who is new to the
dance, doubt my own ability to lead. Giving the reader your perspective AND
other women, perhaps more experienced, giving their perspectives, imparts to
me and all the other males around this tango world what you women need from
us.
You may have singlehandedly elevated the dance that we all love. The
"pounds" of reply that you received show me and other leaders where and how
deliver the communication skills, which will make every dance wonderful and
the "...DEEP happiness that you feel DEEPLY, with your internal organs!"
So persuasive is the buzz spinning-off your comments that I must share
them with my special woman with whom I hopes to dance when I see her next
month.
Thank you.
Don Kelley.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 17 Oct 1999 to 18 Oct 1999 (#1999-37)
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