The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 16 Oct 1999
to 17 Oct 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 03:00:10 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Oct 1999 to 17 Oct 1999 (#1999-36)
There are 9 messages totalling 447 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. my first class - follower's role (2)
2. Women can be great followers with the right man! (3)
3. NEW TANGO
4. My first class
5. Is New Tango Old Hat?
6. New Tango Venue-San Francisco
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:15:32 -0400
From: Laura Stevens <laura.stevens @CANOEMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: my first class - follower's role
Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM> writes:
"If your teacher said it was your fault or you were causing the problems then you should perhaps find another teacher. Not only does it sound mean spirited and judgmental but it doesn't sound like they have very much understanding or patience about teaching."
If it was "mean-spirited", then yes, find another teacher. But if it wasn't, then what's wrong being "judgmental"? Are we living in the world where you can't tell the truth to students for fear of hurting their feelings? Who needs a teacher who does not tell it like it is?
Later, Charles writes:
"Pablo was right. She'll never get it."
Is this a quote from the movie or Pablo's private comment to you, Charles? How do you know what Sally is like in a regular milonga?
Laura Stevens.
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:41:08 -0500
From: kortnee <kortnee @COMPUVISION.NET>
Subject: Women can be great followers with the right man!
It was written in response to the comments regarding being a follower:
>As to Sally Potter, anyone who makes movies as self-involved as hers
probably
couldn't feel comfortable following anything. She is a good example of how
spending lots of money to study with the greatest tango dancer in the world
won't make you good unless you can give yourself up to the dance. Pablo was
right. She'll never get it.
I couldn't agree more!
Sally Potter is a classic example of the typical person who proliferates
the conception that tango can be broken down into a series of steps and
moves. Tango isn't about all that...sure it's part of it. But tango is
about giving oneself up to the music...experiencing the pain of a broken
heart, living life...feeling passionately. It cannot nor should not be
"psychoanalyzed" to bits. Tango is improv, as is life.
As for leading and following,
I teach a beginner's tango class in which I enjoy the experience of leading
and following. I find much of my fun in dancing comes from doing
both...playing both roles. As the leader I get to interpret the music and
guide the flow. But as the follower, I enjoy giving in to my partners
passion...if the partner is good, the experience is unmistakably fabulous.
To be lead, to be guided, to mold my psyche and body with another's; to feel
myself meld with another human being through the unspoken connection created
by the moment, the music, and the movement. ooooh! This is truly a
spiritual event. But, I suppose that's true in many things we women
experience with men...all we need is a leader who recognizes and embraces
the charisma that makes a woman alive and whole.
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:51:26 EDT
From: Jonny Lapongo <s6s6s6 @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: NEW TANGO
I personally think that there are a lot of miss conceptions about what tango
and new tango is, because nobody have a real definition of tango.
And even thought a lot of people are writing about what is new or old, most
of the time are talking about different thinks.
For example:
The fluidity of the dance, is not new?
Well, what I think is that exist different types o fluidity. You can go to
see Tango Argentino and compare Pablo Veron with one of the old guard
dancers.
What about the steps?
I don't think is even possible to write about this, because we do not have a
common language to describe sequences of steps.
Even thought most of the mail I have read lately, does not acknowledge the
new tango as really new.
I think any one that is not even a dancer can distinguish that Chicho dance
very differently than other people, you may not like it, but is new.
For example, I think anybody in here knows who Mora Godoy is, and the style
of tango that she is dancing, and the traditional sequences that she teaches
on the video tapes.
Well, she is giving classes with Mauricio Castro, one of the so call new
tango bunch. They give classes together regardless of this very old
discussions about new or old.
I think that a lot of people are talking about divisions of the dance that
only exist in their own heads.
I would like to say, that is very suspicious that the people that dance new
tango are very well identify, even no one want to acknowledge what they are
doing.
Happy tango
Alberto
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:50:52 +0100
From: America <amauhar @TPIMS.ORG>
Subject: Re: my first class - follower's role
>Hello to the list members!
Hello from another new member. Your message really spoke to me, since I
come from what sounds like a similar dance background, so I felt the need
to reply though I have only been reading the group a couple of weeks.
>I found all the lesson very mortifying, because the teacher continued to
>address to me as the guilty for the little problems we had in walking, and I
>had a strong tentation to leave.
I had a strong background in a variety of partner dances (all of the
standard ballroom fare including tango) and had been doing swing nearly
exclusively when I went to my first Argentine tango class. I am used to
being able to apply what I know about other dances and be reasonably
proficient in a new dance very quickly. Argentine tango is nothing like
that. I felt like I had to throw out every thing I knew and start over
again from nothing (except the connection that you feel through your back
with a good lead and posture and balance). It was VERY frustrating. I
nearly burst into tears my first lesson.
That said, I got through the mortification. I got over the blow to my ego
that I wasn't going to be decent in 3 lessons. I've been dancing 3 days a
week for three months now (I know a short time to all you) and I am just
beginning to not feel like a lead footed imbecile. But I love it and I
keep coming back, because the leads I dance with now offer me
opporitunities and I can choose how I am going to take it. There is a
certain nuance to it that I have never found in any other dance form.
>I am wondering: which are the concepts I have not understand that will
>make bearable the follower's role?
I think that the followers freedoms are VERY subtle in the argentine tango,
but if you can appreciate the sensousness contained within the subtlety
that the dance is not nearly as confining as it might first appear. I am
just now learning how and when to apply adornments, the choices that I have
after a gancho, sweeps and other nuances that I can add within the pattern
that the leader determines. I think that if you didn't have a problem with
the submissiveness of other ballroom dances that eventually you can adjust.
In some ways only being responsible mainly for your own balance and doing
what he tells you can liberate you from the headache of having to remember
what footwork you are supposed to do with what turn and allow you to focus
on your own body line and response. In class I spend a lot more time
looking in the mirror trying to just perfect the way my leg comes back to
close, getting an adornment to look just right, or doing ochos by myself
until there is no wobble in the balance. And at practicas and milongas I
try to feel the connection with my partner and perfect the synergy that we
can get when we are perfectly dancing together and with the music and the
energy of the dance becomes double what we put in.
>
>Thanks to all the followers will help me to understand what to do, and all
>the leaders will tell me what they expect from the follower.
Just two cents from a very new tango dancer, but one who is VERY close to
the stage you are at and survived and now occasionally feels like she's
flying!
America
(in San Diego)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:56:49 +0800
From: Wendy Brown <wenbrown @OMEN.NET.AU>
Subject: My first class
Emanuela, thank you for your first contribution to the list. This is also
my first contribution. I too, have a ballroom background (although from
literally decades ago!) and was drawn to Argentine Tango after having seen
the Sally Potter film The Tango Lesson. Fortunately, my instructor here in
Perth, Western Australia (Juan Rando) has much more concern for his students
than yours seemed to have and I was never criticised for my efforts.
My first lesson consisted of him gently reminding me to keep my head right;
keep a firm contact with my upper arm on his right arm and the heel of my
right thumb against his left hand; keep the line across my arms and
shoulders; lean forward on the balls of my feet; and WAIT for him to lead
me. I am very grateful that I spent the first six weeks of lessons just
doing these things only in the context of the walk, ochos and molinetes. I
believe it has really paid off for me and the more advanced footwork has
been an easy progression.
What I am encouraging (for all followers) is to wait on the leader and feel
in your body where he wants you to go. For me now it is easy to follow as I
feel the "invitation" for me to go where he wants me to go (which is
followed up with a stronger lead if I am unsure or hesitant). I also believe
that one of the best things a follower can do for a leader - beginner or
experienced - is to only go where they lead and this will help them refine
their leading technique.
Please don't be discouraged as Tango is very different (and difficult) but
has a special feeling and connection that is no longer accessible when
ballroom dancing.
Wendy
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:23:48 -0700
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women can be great followers with the right man!
Original Message -----
From: kortnee <kortnee @COMPUVISION.NET>
> I couldn't agree more!
> Sally Potter is a classic example of the typical person
who proliferates
> the conception that tango can be broken down into a series
of steps and
> moves.
Kortnee, I wonder how you came to this conclusion. I saw the
movie and I've spoken with people who were in the movie and
danced with her. I never heard that particular criticism.
She actually did a pretty passable job of dancing in the
movie and I have never heard of her teaching such things
(until just now)
> I teach a beginner's tango class in which I enjoy the
experience of leading
> and following. I find much of my fun in dancing comes
from doing
> both...playing both roles.
There is a good bit of controversy regarding this practice.
Sure, to be an instructor one must know how to do both
things, lead and follow. However, the mindset and skills are
very different. Rarely do you see a good Argentinian male
dancer (leader) who is as profficient following as leading.
They all know how the follower moves but do not like to do
it and admit to being *heavy* and hard to lead. While it is
useful for the man to experience what the proper lead feels
like, it does very little good for a leader to learn to
follow.
> As the leader I get to interpret the music and
> guide the flow. But as the follower, I enjoy giving in to
my partners
> passion...if the partner is good, the experience is
unmistakably fabulous.
Sure, as long as the woman follower (most followers are
women) can comfortably deal with same sex passion when the
leader is a woman. Same applies to men leading men.
> To be lead, to be guided, to mold my psyche and body with
another's; to feel
> myself meld with another human being through the unspoken
connection created
> by the moment, the music, and the movement. ooooh! This
is truly a
> spiritual event. But, I suppose that's true in many
things we women
> experience with men...all we need is a leader who
recognizes and embraces
> the charisma that makes a woman alive and whole.
>
This sounds like a truly inspired and adept follower.
Perhaps some time I'll have the pleasure of dancing with
you? Of course, as a leader, my following skills are not so
good ;-)
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:24:28 +0200
From: Jean-Pierre Jacquet <jpjfilms @CYBERCABLE.FR>
Subject: Is New Tango Old Hat?
Just a couple of anecdotes. This past summer, a strange looking
character (strange as in hip-hop/urban guerilla clothing /is that a
another damn Kangool cap?) showed up to the great outdoor milonga on the
Seine river quay in Paris. He took to the crowded dance floor and
mesmerized everybody, including hardcore traditionalists. Not until I
saw his photograph later on in the Bridge to the Tango catalogue did I
realize that this character was none other than the controversial
Chicho. No entourage, no prima donnaeing, just a fabulous dancer
enjoying himself.
Comments from a teacher (also in Paris) of the "milonguero" style of
tango: old milongueras in their sixties are doing the best back ochos in
the business, and yet they have zero formal dance training; on the
contrary, the tango revivalists in the 70's and 80's were for the most
part trained dancers, show dancers of sorts, and they would teach you to
pivot to death. Given the scarcity of real estate in most milongas and
balls worth their name, the milonguero style is oh so efficient and
beautiful, and you can leave your pivots and studied ochos to the
cloakroom.
Bye for now.
Jean-Pierre Jacquet
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:26:01 -0700
From: "Richard T. Simoni, Sr." <rtssr @BATNET.COM>
Subject: New Tango Venue-San Francisco
Grand Opening Monday Evening, October 25, 1999
Mr. George Guim will teach the Argentine Tango lesson beginning
at 7:45 PM. The live music will begin at 8:30 PM for your dancing
pleasure.
The GLAS KAT Club
cordially invites you to the GRAND OPENING of
Monday Night Argentine Tango Dancing
with
Dale Meyers and his Live Tango Band
STRICTLY TANGO
Monday night, October 25
Hours 8:30 to 12:00 PM
with a beginner level Argentine Tango lesson at 7:45 - 8:30PM
San Francisco's newest and most exciting dance club, Monday nights
dedicated to dancing Argentine Tango to the live music of Dale Meyers
and his STRICTLY TANGO band
Beautiful, brand new club built from the ground up as a dance club with
fabulous sound and lighting system. Two level (high) dance space with
tables and banquets, grand wood dance floor, 2nd level restaurant, two
bars, smoking room, and much more. A very elegant night spot to say the
least.
Located at 520 4th Street at 4th and Bryant in San Francisco
Entrance $10.00 per person at the door
Plenty of street parking in the neighborhood
For information call (650) 328-2718
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 18:44:12 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Women can be great followers with the right man!
>----- Original Message -----
>From: kortnee <kortnee @COMPUVISION.NET>
>
> > I teach a beginner's tango class in which I enjoy the experience of leading
> > and following. I find much of my fun in dancing comes from doing
> > both...playing both roles.
>
>There is a good bit of controversy regarding this practice.
>Sure, to be an instructor one must know how to do both
>things, lead and follow. However, the mindset and skills are
>very different. Rarely do you see a good Argentinian male
>dancer (leader) who is as profficient following as leading.
>They all know how the follower moves but do not like to do
>it and admit to being *heavy* and hard to lead. While it is
>useful for the man to experience what the proper lead feels
>like, it does very little good for a leader to learn to
>follow.
>...
>Regards,
>
>Manuel Patino <white95r @hotmail.com>
What Controversy?
By all accounts, the present generation of tango dancers (since the
1980s) is the first one learning tango in coed circumstances. All of
the older Argentine male dancers report having learned in men's dance
practices in which they had to do the female part, sometimes for many
months.
I don't know any good leader who can't follow, at least reasonably.
But none of them is as proficient at following as leading. I'm
curious about the rare ones you refer to.
My single most important tango lesson came in three steps led by the
young Pablo Pugliese. "Oh! So THAT's what I'm supposed to feel like!"
The single best thing a leader can do is practice the followers role.
It teaches grace, sensitivity, technique, and many other skills that
help your leading.
Several things in particular come to mind:
- The decorations of the feet & legs, and the drawings on the floor
- The way both leaders & followers legs move from the center of their body.
- The back sacada of the man is exactly a back ocho.
And most important: Tango can be internal or external. Just watching
and choreographing the steps leads to a shallow approximation.
It would make an interesting survey:
Of the good leaders in your community, how many of them are at least
"passable" the followers role, and how many are completely unable to
do it?
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
Chautauqua Publishing / Ragtime Interiors
"On-Line Arts & Crafts Movement Resource Directory."
(303) 388 - 2560
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime/
http://www.tango.org/dance/
End of TANGO-L Digest - 16 Oct 1999 to 17 Oct 1999 (#1999-36)
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