The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 11 May 1999
to 12 May 1999
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 11 May 1999 to 12 May 1999
There are 11 messages totalling 527 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Tango couple in Italy on 1 June?
2. Diego y Andrea in Sydney, Australia
3. Rotating partners & Skill Level (3)
4. Old MacDonald's Tango Farm..........ei eye ei eye oh............
5. Rotating partners
6. NYC June Tango
7. What is your skill level and getting feedback
8. How to determine Skill Levels
9. lONDON INFO
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:40:40 +0200
From: "Gabriella C. Marino" <gcmarino @IOL.IT>
Subject: Tango couple in Italy on 1 June?
Hello tango-friends,
Can you please tell me whether there will be any Argentinian dancers in
Italy on 1 June and how to get in touch with them? It's for a very special
event.
Thanks in advance,
Gabriella Marino
Parma, Italy
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:18:49 +1100
From: Gavin Dixon <gavind @MED.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: Diego y Andrea in Sydney, Australia
Hi list,
Just in case you thought porteno~s limit themselves to the northern
hemisphere for performances, you will be interested to read that Diego y
Andrea (the current house act from El Viejo Almacen) are performing this
Friday at the Dancewell Studios (223 Great North Rd, Five Dock, Sydney)
from 8pm onwards. I think it is their only Australian performance (why?).
Chao,
Gavin
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:34:50 -0700
From: Al & Barbara <batango @SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Rotating partners & Skill Level
Dear List,
I've been trying very hard not to get into this, but this seemed to
require comment
>Advanced
Lifts
Carries
Actually, but I don't consider Lifts and Carries to have any relationship to
Argentine Tango. They are done in stage performance, by dancers who have
studied other disciplines, such as adagio, competition ballroom, ballet,
contemporary dance, etc. But never have I seen a milonguero in Argentina, or
even San Francisco, do a lift at a milonga. There is a wide difference
between social tango, improvisational and on-the-floor and the additions
made to it for exhibition.
One of the delights and dangers of tango's current popularity is its
successful commercialisation in shows. Don't get me wrong, many of the
shows are terrific, and valuable for tango aficionados as well as the
general public. I'm only suggesting that anyone with an interest in tango
should be aware of the distinction between the authentic social dance and
its exhibition versions.
I can't imagine an accurate way of self-assessing skill level--I
consider not the number of figures that someone knows, but only the skill
and accuracy of basic movements, the level of leading/following, and
musicality to be the measure of beginning, intermediate or advanced. There
are plenty of dancers who have been studying for years with local and
visiting maestros, know hundreds of elaborate combinations, consider
themselves advanced dancers and can't walk. To assess one's own skill level,
one can only dance with as many different partners as possible, from
beginners to master teachers, and to take private lessons with the best, and
most truthful maestros.
The question of rotating partners is a significant one. Recently Al and
I ran a series of workshops for Carlos Gavito, and at all 11 classes there
were 2 or 3 extra men. Usually in our classes we have extra women, but not
always. I consider any class or workshop with an even number of leaders and
followers to be one of God's little miracles. The alternative, insisting
only on couples, is obviously unfair to singles. There are other
considerations as well. If one dances only with one's own partner, neither
will be able to develop leading and following skills properly. I find that
by dancing, especially in classes, with other partners, even those with very
limited skills, I learn a lot about leading and following, often things that
help when dancing with my own partner, or that clarify technique for leader
or follower.
An example to illustrate the importance of changing partners is that,
among the older 'traditional' milongueros in Buenos Aires, it has been
customary for wives to dance only with their husbands, while their husbands
feel free to dance with single women as well as their spouses. The result
is that many older men are the most sought-after dancers at the milongas,
while their wives, with a few notable exceptions, are not known for their
skill.
Now the question that Al and I struggle with weekly in our classes, is
the best way to rotate partners. One idea posted recently was to have folks
return to their original partners every 4 or 5 numbers. We try to get the
students in a circle and have followers move up one counterclockwise, but
it's hard to do this without going through a military drill. For those who
have strong objections, if a couple approach us and say they really don't
want to change partners, we explain the advantages of doing so, and if they
remain adamant, suggest that they stand outside the circle when changing
partners occurs. We would be vey grateful for ideas of how to make partner
rotation more graceful and workable !
Please post your ideas of more ways to rotate partners !
Abrazos to
all,
Barbara
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Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 12:00 AM
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:43:45 -0700
From: Bruss Bowman <Bruss @QMACS.COM>
Subject: Old MacDonald's Tango Farm..........ei eye ei eye oh............
/*
This is not meant to insult any one.....as that poor man
who mentioned in one post last week, describing his undesirable partner
encountered during a class he attended, as "bovine"! That is a terrible
and insulting use of a pejorative word picture. :-)
*/
Yes, Arthur I agree. This particular thread caught me in a weak moment and
I actually wrote what I was thinking. And unfortunately my 'perceptions'
are/were not limited to a single class or person. Although my choice of
vocabulary was not the most sensitive, the point I making was that better
dancers ( especially leaders ) must be willing to rotate during the course
of group classes regardless of the level of the individual followers they
may encounter to enable the followers to progress from the "bovine" to the
"divine" :-)
Bruss Bowman
Senior Database Administrator
Quality Care Solutions Inc.
http://www.qmacs.com
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:03:24 +0000
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd @ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: Re: Rotating partners
Al & Barbara wrote:
...
> Please post your ideas of more ways to rotate partners !
"Fun" way to rotate partners at a social dance (we use this in ballroom
club): Announce a "mixer". During the mixer (a number of songs of the
same type run together with no break) the host announces "change
partners now" (or rings a bell) a number of times and the object is to
switch to get a new partner from a couple in your immediate vicinity.
It's kind of like "musical chairs" and is very light-spirited. Of
course people who don't like to participate or only dance with the same
partner, can sit out the duration of the mixer, which is usually 7 - 10
minutes and several songs long.
I don't know how this would be received in a milonga, tango is a serious
and passionate dance (maybe a milonga style would be better for it than
a tango or vals cruzado). Ours is usually a swing number, to keep it lively.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
+1 734 668 4646 tel +1 734 663 9361 fax
business, technology, entertainment and new media law
year2000 @arborlaw.com
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:41:11 -0600
From: Brian Salisbury <bsalisb @PUBSAFETY.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rotating partners & Skill Level
Barbara wrote:
> The question of rotating partners is a significant one...
> We try to get the
> students in a circle and have followers move up one counterclockwise...
I strongly agree and would love to see this established as
conventional. Workshops where the teachers use this method,
allow each couple 4-5 passes through the task before moving on,
speak little and move much have been a satisfying experience for
me. Couple that with a summary demonstration for video taping
and it is the perfect workshop class. If there is to be talking it is
good to have most of it at the at the first of the class to settle,
quiet, and prepare the mood for learning.
Brian Salisbury
Wasatch Tango
SLC, UT
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:57:51 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: NYC June Tango
Hi New Yorkers,
I'm sorry to bother the list with a personal plea for advice, and yes, I've
checked all the internet sites devoted to New York tango and have the NYC
hotline number.
But since I'm traveling alone to New York on business, and don't really know
the city, I'm just fishing for any inside info on where/when the best tango
events of June 1-7 are going to be.
I'd be much obliged for any tips. And please feel free to write me when
you're coming to Los Angeles and I'll do the same!
Thanks,
Cherie Magnus
Los Angeles
http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:10:36 +0200
From: Garrit Fleischmann <fleischm @STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE>
Subject: Re: What is your skill level and getting feedback
Hello List,
Michael Ditkoff suggested to 'classify' dancers by SKILL LEVEL
(for workshops) and offered his ideas of these skill levels:
> Beginners -- Just starting
> Intermediate Beginners -- Can execute correctly
> Walking
> Going to the cross and leading the cross
> Front and Back ochos on both sides
> Intermediate -- Can execute correctly
> Paradas
> Molinetes
> Stepovers
> Sacadas
> Ganchos
> Displacements
> Advanced
> Lifts
> Carries
> Anything not listed above
This looks a lot like a very mechanistic few of Tango dancing.
This way, you would advance by learning more and more complex steps -
but think of all the old milongueros in Buenos Aires (everybody keeps
telling me that there are a lot of them dancing there :-)
They 'only' walk, lead to the cross, and do ochos:
so by this classification they would be doing intermediate beginners
stuff.
But the problem lies in the innocent little phrase: 'execute correctly'
Just being able to memorize the steps?
Dance them to the music? Communicate with your partner through your
body?
So you also could categorize dancers in a totaly different way
leaving steps aside (which doesn't mean that this is a
real good way to put people in categories):
The Beginner learns some steps like
Walking
Going to the cross and leading the cross
Front and Back ochos on both sides
...but not only these, but even more important:
communicating to your partner on which foot you are
get an idea of what 'leading and following' means
advanced Beginner still knows the same steps, but:
dances to the beat most of the times
starts to discover that 'posture' might be important for dancing
still focused on his own dancing and not to the partner
not relaxed while dancing
intermediate still won't need any new steps, but:
can dance to the beat and sometimes to the melodie
starts to find his (her) own axis
can feel what the partner is doing and feels on which
foot the partner is most of the time
...lots of other levels.....
Advanced might still only dance the same steps, but:
makes his/her partner feels good!!!!!
dances to the beat and the melodie, depending on the mood,
the music and the partner
dances with the partner, thinking of the partners movements
leads/follows being in the own axis but with a lot of 'presentica'
moves elegenatly, is 'grounded',
... and all the other things which makes a good milonguero
/ a good milonguera... (which is discussed in the list for
a couple of years now :-)
You might say: well, this is obvious, but the problem is, lots of people
seem to focus so much on the amount of different steps you learn
and admire the ones who can do a lot of complicated paterns.
But the real art of dancing lies within the elegance, the feeling for
movements, the music and the partner. So people who focus on lots
of steps tend to neglect the other, perhaps more important things
you should learn in tango to make you a good dancer (IMHO).
This is also reflected by the way lots of workshops are held:
7 figures in 2 days - 'wow, this was a great workshops with soooo
many new steps'
and too seldom:
2 days of working on posture or leading or... - 'wow, dancing
feels so much better now'
Put more of the tango into your hearts, listen to the music, give
your partner a good feeling...
Enjoy the Tango!
Garrit
________________________________________________________
Garrit Fleischmann
email: fleischm @uni-frankfurt.de
Witze: http://www.uni-frankfurt.de/~garrit/jokes.html
Tango: http://www.cyber-tango.com/
________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:23:39 PDT
From: Pepito La Chofa <badchioce @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: How to determine Skill Levels
I have followed with interest the discussion on the issue of how to
determine skill levels for participation in workshops. I can suggest the
following levels and skill proficiency:
Beginners
1- can enthusiastically perform 1 up to 450 figures
Intermediate
1- can enthusiastically perform 2 up to 450 figures
2- most of the time to the rhythm
3- must cause their partners' pupils to dilate considerably after each tango
(Attention: the duration of this effect should be measured to last more that
10 seconds if the dancer is to be considered intermediate)
Advanced
1- can enthusiastically perform 2 up to 450 figures
2- always to the rhythm with variations to the melody
3- while dancing, they must give their partners the feeling that for them
there is nothing else in the world other than their partner and the music.
Workshop organizers could verify this by asking participants the following
question:
Did he/she give you the feeling as if there was nothing else in the world
other than you and the music?
Clearly, these strict standards do not apply to (aspirants to) professional
dancers, who are to be judged on their artistic performance. Fortunately,
all teachers are aware that most tango dancers are just people who simply
wanted to add a (beautiful) extra possibility to express themselves in life.
I am very happy that after one hundred years we will finally standardize
skills and levels for this South American dance. It will allow for better
organization of workshops, and help avoid the hassle of having to deal with
individual learning processes and choices.
La vida es una milonga
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:18:32 -0600
From: Robin Young <rdcuer @MICRON.NET>
Subject: lONDON INFO
Cheerio all you well-traveled dancers,
I have another request for information...our Ballroom coach is going to
be in London Aug. 3-6 and she asked me to ask if anyone has had
excellent instruction at any particular Ballroom Studio in London ?
thanks, Robin
--
IdahoWebSite http://netnow.micron.net/~ryoung
"People don't stop dancing because they get too old;
People get too old because they stop dancing." ANON
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:37:11 -0700
From: JC Dill <tango @VO.CNCHOST.COM>
Subject: Re: Rotating partners & Skill Level
On 11:34 AM 5/11/99 -0700, Al & Barbara wrote:
> Now the question that Al and I struggle with weekly in our classes, is
>the best way to rotate partners. One idea posted recently was to have folks
>return to their original partners every 4 or 5 numbers. We try to get the
>students in a circle and have followers move up one counterclockwise, but
>it's hard to do this without going through a military drill. For those who
>have strong objections, if a couple approach us and say they really don't
>want to change partners, we explain the advantages of doing so, and if they
>remain adamant, suggest that they stand outside the circle when changing
>partners occurs. We would be vey grateful for ideas of how to make partner
>rotation more graceful and workable !
> Please post your ideas of more ways to rotate partners !
One of the most successful techniques I have seen used is to seed the class
with a co-conspirator (or two), who are obviously skilled dancers (if they
are more skilled than the class on average and have been recruited to come
to the class for free to help even out a gender imbalance and raise the
average "partner skill level" for those who rotate, more the better) and
who can be relied upon to participate in the following exchange in the
beginning of the class:
(Ask the students to dance for about 30 seconds so they can warm up and you
can watch the skill levels. Stop the music, then:)
Teacher: So, I see we have a variety of skill levels here. How long has
everyone been dancing Tango? (various students answer) And you, (name)?
Student: I've been dancing (x months/years).
Teacher: What would you say is the single most important thing you have
done that has helped you become the good dancer you are today?
Student: I ALWAYS rotate partners when I am taking lessons and classes.
Nothing makes you a good dancer faster than learning with and practicing
with the widest range of partners possible. Even when I come to a class
with a special partner, I ALWAYS rotate because I know it is the best way
to get the most out of the class.
Teacher: Good for you (name)! OK class, now we will ALL rotate to the
next partner. Gentlemen (or leaders), thank your partner and rotate to the
next Lady (or follower) in the direction of line of dance.
If you are teaching an ongoing class, repeat this "skit" about once every 4
to 8 weeks or as needed based on the number of new students at each class.
You can also just wait and do it after the first rotation if needed, if
there was resistance to rotating, let them dance the second "practice",
then commence the "skit" as above...
BTW, I always recommend that you rotate "in the direction of the line of
dance", because it is easy to remember.
Pick the gentlemen/leaders to rotate or the ladies/followers to rotate, but
be *consistent* from class to class (that way there is less confusion, when
you say "rotate" it's always the same rule from class to class). I
personally find that if you rotate the leaders (especially in beginner
classes), it tends to get them unstuck from where they ended with the
previous partner, so they spread out a bit better (as they pair up with the
next follower) and move to the outside of the floor a bit more than when
you rotate the followers (then the leaders tend to just stand there, stuck
in place as it were, and if they are bunched together they don't get a hint
to spread out), but that may just be my myopic impression from a follower's
perspective. This applies to traveling dances like Tango, if you are doing
a stationary dance then rotating the followers is often better because the
leaders know where to place themselves and their follower in relation to
the leaders on each side and their dancing style. If you were just
practicing molinetes over and over where there was no travel aspect to the
move, rotating followers might be better in that case...
If you rotate often enough, it is not beneficial or necessary to return
people to their original partner because they don't get stuck with a bad
partner for long. I was at a dance convention 2 weeks ago where each 1
hour workshop resulted in rotating more than 30 times. We were in long
lines and I rotated back to my original partner in one of these workshops!
We were rotating every 30 seconds when we were practicing, and would rotate
3 or 4 times before the instructor would stop and make corrections or
demonstrate a fine point, and then have us practice again. They only
rotated back to the "original partner" at the very end of the class when
they put on a song and left us with a final few minutes of uninterrupted
practice. This was a very successful format.
Regularly rotating back to original partners (such as every other rotation
or every 5th rotation) is really quite unfair to people who don't attend
with a partner. If you have 30 people comprised of 12 couples and 6
singles (2 men and 4 women) then 2 of the single women will be "out of
rotation" each time you "rotate back to original partners", and usually it
will be the same 2 women over and over.
Finally, I've noticed that resistance to rotating goes down as frequency of
rotation goes up. The less often you rotate the class, the more your
students get "stuck" with a possibly less skilled partner for too long and
develop resistance to rotating. And always put that you "rotate partners
frequently" on all your class fliers.
HTH
jc
End of TANGO-L Digest - 11 May 1999 to 12 May 1999
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