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Digest from 29 Jun 1999
to 30 Jun 1999
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 03:00:01 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 29 Jun 1999 to 30 Jun 1999
There are 12 messages totalling 527 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Tango Styles (GFC)
2. please remove me..
3. Help -- Where can we go for Milonga in Montreal ?
4. New Tango... (2)
5. New tango but old attitude!
6. looking for Kathryn Harrison
7. Tango Weekend in Tampa Bay, Florida
8. west palm beach
9. New York Tango Review, Cleveland
10. Boston Tango this 4th
11. New tango, old pizza dough (Salas, Chicho, Naveira)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 02:14:01 -0700
From: William Alsup <walsup @EUROPA.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (GFC)
I believe it's VERY important for the serious student of tango to be
grounded in the rich traditions of the dance. (And I know these traditions
can take a lifetime to learn and refine - a journey along which I still have
a long way to go.) But I also believe that there has to be room for
innovation and "newness" in tango for it to flourish in the long run.
Personally, I LOVE the way Chicho dances. (This is coming from a person who
is most comfortable dancing "milonguero" style.) Chicho is the most
inventive, rhythmically astute, and playful tanguero I have watched. I find
his dancing truly inspiring and "mood improving."
I have had the good fortune to take several workshops from Fabian during the
last couple of years, both here and in Seattle. My tango buddies consider
Fabian to be both a brilliant dancer and teacher. While some other friends
consider his style to be either a bit "cerebral," or unmanageable by the
average social dancer, I find Fabian to be simultaneously virtuosic, fluid,
and fresh (and happily without melodrama :-}). And with all this, he leads
so lightly!
With a few members of our community having studied with Gustavo in Buenos
Aires earlier this year, and with Luciana Valle (also VERY fluent in
"new-generation" vocabulary) in town now, we are happily being exposed to a
lot of great tango concepts that I don't think are "clownish" at all.
I'm looking forward very much to Chicho's workshops in L.A. next month!
Bill Alsup,
Portland, Oregon
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:41:44 +1200
From: peter_tyson <peter_tyson @SOFTHOME.NET>
Subject: please remove me..
Can someone please remove me from the list.. after a hard drive crash I have
lost the instructions on how to do it myself.
Must admit over the past week or two I've got pretty tired of the pointless
bickering and point scoring from all sides and realised it's pretty
irrelevant to Tango as I know it!
so bye
Peter
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:42:52 -0400
From: Asta Chen <Asta_Chen @HARVARDPILGRIM.ORG>
Subject: Help -- Where can we go for Milonga in Montreal ?
Bon Jour,
My tango friends and I would like to go to Montreal during the July 4th weekend.
We will leave Boston on Friday early morning and come back on Monday evening. We
want to know where we can go for milonga in Montreal in between 7/2 -- 7/5, out
door and indoor are all welcome? Also, Is there any workshop going on? Who is
the teacher, price and schedule? And, where we can stay, motel, reasonable price
and reasonable distance?
Any information is appreciated and many thanks to you.
Asta Chen
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:28:32 +0200
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: Re: New Tango...
Melinda Bates writes:
> >Brannigan, Mary writes:
> > > And from the scores of women who wait to dance with Fabian and Gustavo
[...]
> Peter Niebert writes:
> >That does not say much. It is reported that women stood in line to
> >make love with Napoleon. [...]
> Did you intend to so casually insult the women on this list, or is it just
> your natural attitudes shining through? [...]
> You are welcome to your opinions about tango, but I hope you will keep your
> neanderthal opinions about women to yourself.
Oh, I am deeply sorry that you felt offended.
I so today I have learned:
(a) Tango is not about women and has nothing to do with sex.
(b) Dancing with superb dancers who are otherwise unsupportable is a
marvellous experience.
(c) Monica Lewinsky DOES have a good taste or is not a woman or is from
Neanderthal (still have to figure out the details).
Milonguero Neanderthalensis
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:08:00 -0400
From: "Ozeng, Gulden" <ozeng @NEURO.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: New tango but old attitude!
Maybe you should push your learning skills a little bit more and try to understand
that there might be several feelings and attitudes involved in tango as well as in
life and you can not paint everything in one color (eventhough it's your favorite
one!). So far, it's quite clear that you are trapped in some kind of jealousy but I
hope you won't try to make it clear, with this attitude of yours, whether it is
about the superior dancing skills of these dancers or about the women standing in
line to DANCE with them (I hope you can offer them the freedom of feeling whatever
they can during the dance!).
Best wishes with your efforts,
G|lden
Peter Niebert wrote:
> Melinda Bates writes:
> > >Brannigan, Mary writes:
> > > > And from the scores of women who wait to dance with Fabian and Gustavo
> [...]
> > Peter Niebert writes:
> > >That does not say much. It is reported that women stood in line to
> > >make love with Napoleon. [...]
> > Did you intend to so casually insult the women on this list, or is it just
> > your natural attitudes shining through? [...]
> > You are welcome to your opinions about tango, but I hope you will keep your
> > neanderthal opinions about women to yourself.
>
> Oh, I am deeply sorry that you felt offended.
>
> I so today I have learned:
>
> (a) Tango is not about women and has nothing to do with sex.
>
> (b) Dancing with superb dancers who are otherwise unsupportable is a
> marvellous experience.
>
> (c) Monica Lewinsky DOES have a good taste or is not a woman or is from
> Neanderthal (still have to figure out the details).
>
> Milonguero Neanderthalensis
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:15:48 GMT
From: Marco van Zanden <argtango @EURONET.NL>
Subject: looking for Kathryn Harrison
Dear list
I am passing this message for a friend without internet access.
Arie Klok, photographer in the Netherlands is=20
looking for Kathryn Harrison, an American (still?) living in the UK.
if someone knows her please let her contact Arie at
fax or phonenumber 0031 299 - 654890
greetings
TangoMarco
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:27:56 EDT
From: Victor Crichton <victor_vsc @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Weekend in Tampa Bay, Florida
The Tango community in Tampa Bay, Florida would like to invite you to a
weekend of Tango workshops, milongas, show, and dinner.
We will have workshops with Cecilia Gonzalez and Mariano "Chicho" Frumboli
on Fri, Sat, and Sun, August 6th - 8th. There will be 7 workshops covering
Tango, Vals, and Milonga. They will start fairly basic and progress
throughout the weekend. Cecilia and Chicho are very easy going people with
warm personalities and a good sense of humor. Their classes are always very
enjoyable and very educational. No matter how many times I have been in one
of their beginning or intermediate classes, I always learn something. And
when I am in one of their advanced classes, I am always challenged. Anyone
form beginner to very advanced will benefit from this couple.
There will be milongas each night plus an excellent show on Sun that will
include dinner at a fine latin restaurant.
Joining Cecilia and Chicho for the show will be Fernanda Ghi and Guillermo
Merlo.
For those not familiar with these couples, they are both from Argentina and
both couples are terrific dancers and teachers. Cecilia and Chicho, as you
have seen discussed on the Tango-L incorporate elements referred to as 'new
Tango' into their dancing. Their presentation is very expressive and alive.
They are also very strong believers in good solid fundamentals. You will
love both their classes and their dancing.
Fernanda and Guillermo are one of the most dynamic and passionate couples
you will ever see dance Tango. They have impeccable stage credentials and
have just been seen in the PBS production "Tango Magic". They are also very
respected teachers and beautiful salon dancers. If there is sufficient
enrollment in the workshops, they will be split into two levels and Fernanda
and Guillermo will also teach.
Another feature of the Sunday show will be a wonderful singer from
Argentina, Daniel Bouchet. Daniel sings Tango with deep feeling and a
beautiful voice. He has many TV appearances on his resume and has performed
with everything from trios to symphony orchestras.
We will also have live music for dancing featuring Bandoneonista Miguel
Arrabal, from Argentina, now living in Miami.
It promises to be a great weekend and I would be glad to send more details
to any interested parties.
If you are thinking of making a little vacation out of this weekend, the
Gulf Beaches are among the best in America. There are many small
inexpensive motels as well as the normal large chain hotels. I would be
happy to get you information or help in any way I can.
I am the organizer of this weekend and I definitely have a financial
interest.(I would like to not go broke!)
Wishing you many passionate Tangos,
Victor Crichton
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:41:21 -0600
From: Frances Dahlberg <dahlberf @SPOT.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: west palm beach
A tango friend is moving to west palm beach. could anyone knowing about
the tango opportunities there, please email her directly at
tangomarci @aol.com. Thanks, Frances
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:15:18 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: New York Tango Review, Cleveland
Friday evening July 30
The New York Tango Review will perform tango at the Cleveland Museum of Art
Dancing to there music, from Canada. Roxanna & Fabian (no not Salas)
Tickets are available by calling the Museum at 216/421-7350 or Timmy
440/327-8211
Saturday Morning July 31
Pablo Aslan, bassest for The New York Tango Review, will teach an outstanding
Musicality class at the Diamondback Brewery 724 Prospect Rd in downtown
Cleveland, behind Jacob's field.
Time will be 10:00 a.m. in the morning
You will learn everything about the music itself, and at which level you
dance it at. You will learn the three levels of the music, the Marcada,
Syncopa, and Melody. You learn what make Astor Piazzolla so hard to dance to
and more.
If you love to dance tango, you will love this class, and find it very
valuable
If your a musician and love to play Tango, You need this class for a better
understanding.
If you just sit in a chair and love to listen to tango, You won't want to
miss this class.
As a speaker, You will love listening to Pablo Aslan. His sense of humor and
knowledge of tango will have you wanting more.
This class will last between 1 1/2 to 2 hours in length and include breakfast
This will be an all you can eat buffet with fruit, cerial, rolls, eggs,
bacon, sausage, potatoes, toast and more.
All for just $25 in advance $30 at the door
class without breakfast $18 in advance $25 at the door
There will be a Milonga on Saturday night, for you out of towners, at the
Diamondback Brewery and hopefully by then I may persuade Roxanna & Fabian to
stay and join us and maybe teach.
More on that subject later.
Contact
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
440/327-8211 or E mail
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:34:15 -0400
From: Jeffrey Blustein <blustein @AECOM.YU.EDU>
Subject: Boston Tango this 4th
My wife and I will be in Boston this weekend for the 4th of July
celebrations. Are there any special Tango events that we might go to ?
thanks for the info.
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:52:01 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: New Tango...
Most of the responses I received to my posting were private, so I won't
share them. All but one were positive. My interpretation of his analogy as
offensive to women was pretty widely endorsed, by women and men. So it's
not just my thin skin.... The lengthy critical one I received echoed a point
Peter makes here, and I wonder if we should be talking about it.
>Melinda Bates writes:
> > >Brannigan, Mary writes:
> > > > And from the scores of women who wait to dance with Fabian and
Gustavo
>[...]
> > Peter Niebert writes:
> > >That does not say much. It is reported that women stood in line to
> > >make love with Napoleon. [...]
> > Did you intend to so casually insult the women on this list, or is it
just
> > your natural attitudes shining through? [...]
> > You are welcome to your opinions about tango, but I hope you will keep
your
> > neanderthal opinions about women to yourself.
>
>Oh, I am deeply sorry that you felt offended.
>
>I so today I have learned:
>
>(a) Tango is not about women and has nothing to do with sex.
Tango is clearly about men and women - that's the fun. Is it necessarily
about sex? Are all sensual experiences about sex? I would say "no". Are
women drawn to partners only because of sexual attraction? I can only say
for myself, again "no". So, unless large numbers of women disagree, the
above observation is silly.
>(b) Dancing with superb dancers who are otherwise unsupportable is a
> marvellous experience.
This issue is the real heart, I believe, of Peter's argument. And maybe it
is one the tango community should look at.
I have approached this subject simply from the point of view of experiencing
a wonderful dance. That does not require me to make a moral judgment about
the tanguero who provides it. It is for the moment only. I'm not looking
for a lifetime commitment, nor am I looking to get laid - by the visiting
star or anyone else. (please excuse my directness, but that WAS the point
of the discussion...) I'm a grown up, and know how to fend off unwelcome
advances.
But there is a really important question here. If these famous, traveling
tango masters really do behave as badly as I am being told, if women and men
are being injured by their behavior off the dance floor, what, if anything,
is our responsibility there? My response in the past has been to pay no
attention, on the assumption that consenting adults do as they please. That
makes it none of my business. Actually, I STILL think it is none of my
business. But Peter, is this not exactly your point - that it IS our
business?
What is the responsibility of the man or woman who freely chooses to be
subject to this bad behavior? Are we to be the tango police? I am speaking
in general terms, not about any individual. But we all know what happens,
and with whom. If we know this, how do we respond? As individuals, as a
community of shared passion... these are sincere questions, and I look
forward to honest responses, even from the Milonguero Neanderthalensis.
(Although I am reminded of the famous lines from "A few good men": "You
want the truth? You can't HANDLE the truth!") So I'm putting on my
asbestos suit and goggles :-)
Melinda
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:58:07 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: New tango, old pizza dough (Salas, Chicho, Naveira)
I'm finally catching up on my email after a really good week of classes
with Florencia Taccetti. It is pretty wonderful when you get to DO so much
tango you have no time to TALK about it!
As I quote him at the bottom, dear Pepito rallies us to protect the banner
of traditional tango and calls the new tango "pseudo-kinetic mumbo-jumbo".
I have had the pleasure of studying with all tres of the "gorditos". In
defense of Chicho, he consciously and clearly expects people to know
traditional tango, and taught us in the final, advanced class his modern
material only because we demanded it.
It is clear to me that Gustavo and his followers have contributed a new
analysis of tango, one that is quite complete and very clear. I don't know
if this is necessarily a GOOD thing, but it is out there like the opening
of Pandora's box and tango will not be the same, just as the invention of
the woman's cross and the tango turn irrevocably changed tango at the onset
of the Golden 40s.
I confess, my preference in tango is for a strong connection between the
partners, which for me depends on a nice (not necessarily rigid) embrace,
and a clear sense of "front-to-front", not to mention "heart-to-heart". I
therefore consider myself a member of the traditionalist camp, especially
when it comes to the emotion and feeling of "real" tango.
But, I also quite like the "Liquid" tango that is possible when you
understand the "kinetic-mumbo-jumbo". Perhaps Chicho dances in the most
extreme form, in which he has all but abandoned a traditional frame.
Instead, the connection between the partners is built on a balance between
their two axes. The leader opens or closes space defining where the
follower should step, and this leads to a very fluid or liquid tango of
steps merging into the next possibility.
For this to succeed, the leader has to know impeccably his follower's axis
balance, body movements, and in this is where the connection comes. In a
more traditional tango the best leaders manage to make the follower feel
just as connected, but the balance is in the way he manages her torsion and
twist.
I don't think you can say one is more or less connected than the other,
although I prefer the one that is more internal to my partners body. At
this point in my tango development I lean more and more to the close
embrace tango, which perhaps is the extreme opposite of Chicho. Close
embrace tango plays with very subtle leads, slight wiggles, traded
decorations, and a game of cat-and-mouse between the leader and follower,
that you just don't get to do with the big, liquid tango.
I agree with the critics that performing the New Tango requires tremendous
technical skill. It takes us away from social tango which mere mortal
should be able to learn.
I am not saying you can get away with lazy or sloppy technique in any of
your tango. Finding a good connection in any kind of tango requires lots of
work, study and good technique, just as playing a beautiful melody on a
stradivarious violin requires a lot of study.
Pepito La Chofa <badchioce @HOTMAIL.COM>
>
>Upon reading the interview with Salas, having recently read one with Chicho,
>and being a bit of a traditional freak myself, I decided to take up an old
>salon tradition sparked by individuals who are not willing to show any
>respect for the communal element of social dancing: pushing and kicking them
>about.
>
>Salas, Chicho and Naveira (Los tres gorditos) are not clones, they are
>clowns. If you have had the opportunity to see Chicho perform, you probably
>have witnessed yourself how he dresses in colourful and unequivocally funny
>"pachuco"-suits and mocks traditional tango movement-aesthetics. An educated
>actor, he performs a technically perfect clownesque mockery of tango. And
>not much more than that.
...
>
>The interview continues with a description by Salas of the most elementary
>structure of dance dynamics (in pseudo-kinetic mumbo-jumbo). Great dancers
>like Tete and Silvia intuitively apply this knowledge to produce tango,
>whereas "Los tres gorditos" merely produce motion.
...
>
>Stripping tango of its traditional character, its origin -and further
>development- in collective consensus about what is and is not tango, the
>*magic* of its cultural origins of a social-ritual nature, amounts to little
>more than indolence and slackness. But it also bears witness to a
>utilitarian approach to cleverly exploit the upsurge of a worldwide "tango
>market".
>
>La vida es una milonga
>
>Pepito La Chofa
Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
>However, on Gustavo's visit in Lyon some weeks ago I did not notice
>this line of women waiting to dance with him after his performance
>with Giselle Anne. It was a cold and technical performance, without
>any soul. It was a demonstration, if for anything, meant to
>intimidate.
>
>I have seen older videos of Naveira, where you can see his catlike
>walk, also I saw him on milongas in northern Germany some time ago
>(and yes, there were some women enjoying him). A truly great and
>innovative dancer. Maybe somewhat introvert and intellectual. A
>personality with particularities, great but not flawless. I looked up
>to him.
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
Chautauqua Publishing / Ragtime Interiors
"On-Line Arts & Crafts Movement Resource Directory."
(303) 388 - 2560
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime/
http://www.tango.org/dance/
End of TANGO-L Digest - 29 Jun 1999 to 30 Jun 1999
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