The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 27 Jun 1999
to 28 Jun 1999
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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:00:01 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 27 Jun 1999 to 28 Jun 1999
There are 10 messages totalling 442 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. dough for tango (3)
2. Tango in Phoenix
3. Locale-Specific Postings
4. Locale-Specific Postings [Traffic Citations]
5. Local events and Scams (2)
6. Roommate for Tango Weekend
7. New tango, old pizza dough (Salas, Chicho, Naveira)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:36:53 +0200
From: Colin Brace <cbrace @LIM.NL>
Subject: Re: dough for tango
On 06/20/99 at 04:28 AM, Planet Tango <tangoman @HOOKED.NET> wrote:
> How can the locals participate at about $700 a head?
> "We are looking at the possibility of offering grants so the cost of
> the whole week would be around $200. We are working with the people of
> New Direction in Culture.
Salas has a wonderful sense of humor. Why would a porte=F1o/a pay even
$200 for a week's worth of classes with the very same people offering
classes year around in Buenos Aires for $5 or $10 a shot? That congress
is nothing more than a scam to lighten the pocketbooks of well-heeled
tango tourists from north america and europe who don't know better.
Caveat emptor.
--
Colin Brace <cbrace @lim.nl>
Amsterdam
http://www.lim.nl/tango
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:10:10 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Tango in Phoenix
Does anyone know the website or contact person for Tango in Phoenix? I'll
be there over 4th of July and want to dance. Thx
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:50:24 -0700
From: Manuel Patino <manuelp @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: dough for tango
Original Message -----
From: Colin Brace <cbrace @LIM.NL>
>>Salas has a wonderful sense of humor. Why would a
porte=F1o/a pay even
$200 for a week's worth of classes with the very same people
offering
classes year around in Buenos Aires for $5 or $10 a shot?<<
Because there were a total of (24) 1.5 hour classes
available plus nightly milongas with live music, one show at
the Pablo Picasso theater and more beguining plus ending
shows and nightly demonstrations?
>> That congressis nothing more than a scam to lighten the
pocketbooks of well-heeled
tango tourists from north america and europe who don't know
better. Caveat emptor.<<
Scam? hardly, the attendees to the C.I.T.A. got a lot of
tango instruction and events for their fee. The tango weeks
in the US are hardly less expensive than C.I.T.A. when you
consider that C.I.T.A.was a much larger event that offered
considerably more choices of instructors and milongas with
live music that you are very unlikely to ever find in the
US, Europe or even Bs As.
These type of events are very expensive and labor intensive
to organize. I think it's too easy to label anything *a
scam* and very unfair and insulting to label the organizers
as *swindlers*. I have not seen the books of the C.I.T.A. or
similar events but I've heard "breaking even" and "limiting
losses" as the keywords at a number of these events. While
it is true that some a much more financially successful than
others I would hardly call them *scams*. Do not forget that
some of these organizers are professionals and make a living
from providing the tango afficionados what they want. The
organizers of C.I.T.A. provided exactly what they offered
and delivered on their commitments. A *scam* is when you pay
your money and do not get the promised service or goods. In
this case Colin, you are completely wrong.
In addition to taking instructions One of the thrilling
things about attending C.I.T.A. is exactly the opportunity
to dance with people from all other parts of the world and
make contacts with others who share our interests. I for one
was very impressed with the high level of service provided
by C.I.T.A. and as a friend of Fabian I very much resent
seeing him portrayed in such a negative way.
Manuel
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:42:54 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Locale-Specific Postings
I have heard a story about an attorney who hosted (hosts?) a milonga
in a city to remain nameless. She adopted a practice of issuing
"traffic citations" to dancers who violated protocol at her milongas.
Because the story reveals how far some people will go to enforce what
they see as "the rules," I have repeated the story as true numerous
times. :-) At least the woman who enforced these rules was the host
of the event, not just one of the participants.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:31:59 -0400
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Locale-Specific Postings [Traffic Citations]
Steve de Tejas wrote:
> .... practice of issuing "traffic citations" to dancers who violated
protocol at ... milongas.
The next logical step is blood-alcohol tests. A little too much vino tinto
from the snack table....?
Conviction of DWI (Dancing while intoxicated), or TUI (Tangoing under the
influence) is punishable by having to sit out the next two tandas, and
lifetime prohibition from dancing to cortinas.
The excuse, "I wasn't leading" will not fly.
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) (Smileys, for those who need them)
Tangringo (Designated Dancer)
____________________
Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
Harriman, NY
oldzeid @frontiernet.net
Visit us at Hudson Valley Tango
http://nycdc.com/hvtango
===================
Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
===================
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:54:14 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Local events and Scams
Hola from Cleveland:
I wish everyone on this list could promote at least one tango event, weather
it's a tiny one night milonga, or a weekend workshop with a famous
instructor. I'm also insulted, the insinuation that Fabian Salas could be a
scam artist. CITA was an event of grand proportion. The gamble Fabian took,
whether he made or lost money was also of grand proportion. I to, probably
have been looked at in this fashion since I promote tango in Cleveland. The
minute people see any promoter charging and making any money putting on a
workshop, brings negative comment from some lowlife. Many a time, I've lost
money. I would like to break even, or just make enough money to pay for my
time for frustrations from some of the things that can go wrong, and trust
me, a lot can go wrong. It's a big gamble putting on any kind of event.
Think of it this way, where would tango be in your city if someone didn't
take that financial risk.
Local events
I personally love seeing local events going on in other cities on this list,
and would like to continue hearing about more. How else would I know where to
Tango when I visit other cities either for vacation or buiness. I do feel
that the level of event should be for a weekend workshop with a visiting
instructor, or bigger, not just a nightly milonga.
If it wasn't for this list I wouldn't have heard about CITA. The Miami
congress, the New Mexico Congress, I wouldn't have heard about and had a
great weekend at Tango Nada Mas with Calos Gavito. People wouldn't have come
to the events that I have produced if it wouldn't be for this list, and how
would you know who the great instructors are if people didn't talk about and
promote their events. If it wasn't for this list how do you think tango would
flourish like it is, going to city to city. Yes, this is the best form of
advertising there is for Tango.
I will continue to use this list to let everyone know about tango in
Cleveland, please don't be angry with me. I am very proud of Cleveland and
feel everyone should visit here at least once. Cleveland has the Rock and
Roll hall of Fame. Its also has one if not the best cultural centers of
museums of any city. Cleveland has the Cleveland Orchestra and the Cleveland
San Jose Ballet. Cleveland in no longer the mistake on the lake, but it's now
the best location in the nation. The Cuyahoga River no longer burns. Now it
has the best night life of any city can offer.
If I didn't use this list how else would you know about
July 30 The New York Tango Review perform tango at the Cleveland Museum of Art
July 31 Musicality Class with Pablo Aslan of the New York Tango Review at the
Diamondback Brewery
August 18 thru 24 Nito and Elba instruct tango in Cleveland
Sept 9 thru 13 Daniel Lapadula comes to Cleveland, watch for him on the
Morning Exchange
October 9 & 10 Daniel Trenner
December Matej Oresic
February Marcos Questas & Zita Gonzalez, from stage presentation "TANGOING"
February 14 "Tango from the East". At the Lakewood Civic Center. A traveling
group from Budipest\
Come and tango in Cleveland
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:55:28 -0700
From: Dave Lawrence <DAVID_LAWRENCE @HP-ROSEVILLE-OM1.OM.HP.COM>
Subject: Roommate for Tango Weekend
Hello Tango-L,
I'll be attending Nora's Tango Weekend from July 2-4. To cut costs, I
looking for a roommate for a double occupancy room at the Emeryville
Holiday Inn. I'm checking in the evening of July 1st and checking out
the morning July 5th.
If interested, contact me via e-mail or phone at:
David_Lawrence @hp.com
(916) 785-1650 work
(916) 965-8178 home
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 01:46:40 +0200
From: Colin Brace <cbrace @LIM.NL>
Subject: Re: dough for tango
I would agree. Why pay Trenner $3000 for 10 days of tango in B.A. when a
low cost fare, rent a room at an apt for about $30 a day with kitchen use,
and go to practicas every night for $5, group lessons for $10 and milongas
for $4-5? Do the math and see what it adds up to. All the Trenner classes
were large group lessons.
There are many wonderful dancers and instructors there. The key is if you
speak only english or enough spanish to get instruction. I have great
instruction in english and private lessons were $30. My money went along
way for two weeks in B.A. I sampled many styles of instruction since it
was my frist trip. I took a group milonga lesson with the best for only $7
when in the USA the charge would be $30 or a workshop.=20
If you meet dancers you really like and they don't have a studio, there are
places in B.A. that rent time $7-8 hr for studio space and private
instruction can be about $15 if you speak spanish.
>
>> How can the locals participate at about $700 a head (C.I.T.A)?
>
>> "We are looking at the possibility of offering grants so the cost of
>> the whole week would be around $200. We are working with the people of
>> New Direction in Culture.
>
>Salas has a wonderful sense of humor. Why would a porte=F1o/a pay even
>$200 for a week's worth of classes with the very same people offering
>classes year around in Buenos Aires for $5 or $10 a shot? That congress
>is nothing more than a scam to lighten the pocketbooks of well-heeled
>tango tourists from north america and europe who don't know better.
>Caveat emptor.
>
>
>--
> Colin Brace <cbrace @lim.nl>
> Amsterdam
Naomi Bennett=09
Austin, TX
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:11:41 PDT
From: Pepito La Chofa <badchioce @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: New tango, old pizza dough (Salas, Chicho, Naveira)
Hello list!
Upon reading the interview with Salas, having recently read one with Chicho,
and being a bit of a traditional freak myself, I decided to take up an old
salon tradition sparked by individuals who are not willing to show any
respect for the communal element of social dancing: pushing and kicking them
about.
Salas, Chicho and Naveira (Los tres gorditos) are not clones, they are
clowns. If you have had the opportunity to see Chicho perform, you probably
have witnessed yourself how he dresses in colourful and unequivocally funny
"pachuco"-suits and mocks traditional tango movement-aesthetics. An educated
actor, he performs a technically perfect clownesque mockery of tango. And
not much more than that.
Getting back to Salas:
>Asked if he always dances with Lucia, the girl on the cover, Fabian
> >says,"No, but she is one of those who accompany me the most when we
> >train."
>To the interviewer, the word "train" sounds like it refers to sports
> >instead of dancing.
>"What happens is that for us the tango is gymnastics,"
'nuff said.
>What we have generated in the tango until now, comes from a process >of
>many years working together with the intention to apply a reason
>to the movements.
Unable to find reason in tango movements, he felt he had to try and "apply"
reason to them. Sad case.
>We consider the tango as a dancing technique and as such having a >theory
>and certain tactical questions that make it a science and not >a pastime.
Say what?
>The interviewer is concerned about Salas projection towards an >excessively
>specialized society.
>"One thing is to talk about professionalism," Fabian says, "and >another is
>to talk about mediocrity. Soccer continues to be very >popular, yet it is
>more and more professional."
Soccer, everybody knows, has become big business where players are bought
and sold for ridiculous amounts of money. During the Tango Congress
organized by Salas and his friends, prices of US$ 700 were charged for a
week of workshops, given by the same teachers offering classes year-round
for $5 to $10. Besides, could we not leave "professionalism" for other areas
of human endeavour; tango is a traditional dance, not a sport.
>"The first time I went to Almagro, they kicked me off the dance >floor; it
>was a time when they danced a style with very short steps," >he says. "I
>tried to do what I had learned from Copes: 'one-two-three >and ocho,' and
>in the ocho they systematically pushed me away, until >I had to leave."
Why did he come back?
>I was in that quandary when I met Gustavo Naveira. I thought I was >number
>one (sic!) and he slapped me to reality. I realized that he >was on the
>same road as I was, but he had been traveling longer.
I think Naveira might have slapped him too hard.
>"Our wrongly called 'clones' understand the functioning of the >system.
>They come from a different direction because they learn to >dance the way
>we teach them (sic). We mix in the teaching what we do >now and what we
>used to do before, so they don't really know how to >distinguish what is
>traditional and what is not.
He's gone for good now. Doesn't the fact that their "followers" are
considered clones tell him something about their estrangement from tango
language? I don't think he gives a toss, actually.
Here's some food for thought: "Enthusiastic partisans of the idea of
progress are in danger of failing to recognize... the immense riches
accumulated by the human race... By underrating the achievements of the
past, they devalue all those which still remain to be accomplished." Claude
Livi-Strauss (1908-90), French anthropologist.
The interview continues with a description by Salas of the most elementary
structure of dance dynamics (in pseudo-kinetic mumbo-jumbo). Great dancers
like Tete and Silvia intuitively apply this knowledge to produce tango,
whereas "Los tres gorditos" merely produce motion.
Salas response to the price issue during the Tango Congress is very funny
indeed, as remarked by Colin Brace's reply to the list.
Stripping tango of its traditional character, its origin -and further
development- in collective consensus about what is and is not tango, the
*magic* of its cultural origins of a social-ritual nature, amounts to little
more than indolence and slackness. But it also bears witness to a
utilitarian approach to cleverly exploit the upsurge of a worldwide "tango
market".
La vida es una milonga
Pepito La Chofa
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:27:28 -0700
From: Pelayo Llamas <pelayojr @LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: Re: Local events and Scams
I agree that one who takes the financial risk to put on these large
events should be entitled to some financial reward. So long as the
participants don't feel they are being gouged, why not? Is anyone
forced to go to these big workshops? If you really can't afford it,
don't go and write a complaint about the high cost. Why must the
organizer merely "break even" to be percieved as fair? Don't we want to
give the organizer an incentive to do it again while we can just pay our
fee and show up, without headaches?
Timothy Pogros wrote:
>
> Hola from Cleveland:
> I wish everyone on this list could promote at least one tango event, weather (sic)
> it's a tiny one night milonga, or a weekend workshop with a famous
> instructor. . . . Many a time, I've lost
> money. I would like to break even, or just make enough money to pay for my
> time for frustrations from some of the things that can go wrong, and trust
> me, a lot can go wrong. It's a big gamble putting on any kind of event.
> Think of it this way, where would tango be in your city if someone didn't
> take that financial risk.
>
End of TANGO-L Digest - 27 Jun 1999 to 28 Jun 1999
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