The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 16 Jun 1999
to 17 Jun 1999
Return-Path: owner-TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 03:00:03 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Jun 1999 to 17 Jun 1999
There are 9 messages totalling 581 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. the perfect follow (5)
2. Mail failure [NOT!]
3. Re[2]: Mail failure [NOT!]
4. Susana Miller - Atlanta
5. Tango in Sicilia?
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:20:39 EDT
From: Mitchell Levitan <WEDRIVEN @AOL.COM>
Subject: the perfect follow
Fellow Listees,
I am a relative newcomer to the Argentine tango but from my observations it
appears the 'perfect follow' should be blind and deaf. Deaf so that the
musicality and the beat comes through the lead and blind so that the follow
is always waiting for direction from the lead as from, for instance, a guide
dog.
To practice a figure repetitively in a class strikes me as somewhat
self-defeating. When a follow knows where to go and how to move how does that
improve ones skill as the lead or, for that matter, ones sensitivity as a
follow?
I have a regular partner and I'm not always sure when her movements are in
response to my lead or to some kind of choreography we have developed between
us. I don't know if when a mistake is made if it follows from my ineptitude
as a leader or from her lack of following skills (I almost always suspect the
former). It is gratifying to me when, on occasion, I dance with a different
partner at a milonga and I am able to lead a figure I have led successfully
only with my partner and frustrating when I fail. I stress "at a milonga" to
differentiate from those different partners with whom I dance in class who at
times "back lead " me and, anyway, know what they're expected to do.
Also there is the problem posed by the fact that we, my partner and I, like
to dance close but when you dance with strangers, either in class or at a
milonga it is usually at arms length (well not exactly, but you know what I
mean 'salon'?).
My reading of Tango-L leads me to believe that there are many experienced
tangueros who at some point in their education may have had to resolve such
questions. I would be extremely interested in hearing your thoughts on these
subjects as I have enjoyed reading your view on other subjects.
Thank you,
Mitchell
S. Orange
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:46:36 -0400
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: the perfect follow
From: Mitchell Levitan Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:20 PM
> ...'perfect follow' should be blind and deaf. Deaf so that the
> musicality and the beat comes through the lead and blind so that the
follow
> is always waiting for direction from the lead ...
I see that some women like to close their eyes when they tango, and I envy
them their opportunity to do so. When we dance with no one else around, I
will close mine sometimes. By closing out other senses, I can let the sound
and the touch of tango take over completely.
But deaf? I say no. I want my partner to hear and feel the music. I'll take
responsibility for initiating a move and for the direction it will go, but
my partner needs to time her steps (and non-steps) to the music. Often the
timing is totally dictated by la marca, but there are many opportunities
where her feet will hit the floor more than once between marks (an obvious
example is a molinete for a full turn or more), and she is on her own to
relate those steps to the music. Also, any adornments she adds between
steps must relate to the music.
On the other hand, if the guy is going to screw up the rhythm, then she
might want to stuff some cotton in her ears for 3 minutes, just to get
through the dance ;-))).
Tangringo
____________________
Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
Harriman, NY
oldzeid @frontiernet.net
Visit us at Hudson Valley Tango
http://nycdc.com/hvtango
===================
Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
===================
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:02:14 -0600
From: Brian Salisbury <bsalisb @PUBSAFETY.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: the perfect follow
Mitchell Levitan wrote:
> ... from my observations it
> appears the 'perfect follow' should be blind and deaf. Deaf so that the
> musicality and the beat comes through the lead and blind so that the follow
> is always waiting for direction from the lead as from, for instance, a guide
> dog.
>
Ooh, ooh. Bad dog, bad dog! (couldn't resist) ;-)
A partner who hears the music and interprets it into movement is
the joy that tango is all about. Her partner merely moves such to
invite her into a space that creates certian predictable possibilities.
> To practice a figure repetitively in a class strikes me as somewhat
> self-defeating. When a follow knows where to go and how to move how does that
> improve ones skill as the lead or, for that matter, ones sensitivity as a
> follow?
Drill has its place. When one can walk with automatic tango
awareness he or she becomes free to move as mood, music,
room, partner, moment choose. The "Zen" of tango brings sartori
more frequently to those who have repeated their foot-chest mantra
many times. Close examination of the most basic elements of
tango movement allows the most freedom. Unminded pacing
through long sequences is mostly counter productive and not to be
mistaken for real practice. (Not that step patterns can't be fun and
challanging)
> I have a regular partner and I'm not always sure when her movements are in
> response to my lead or to some kind of choreography we have developed between
> us.
Common problem. Dance every chance and let experience take
effect.
>
> Also there is the problem posed by the fact that we, my partner and I, like
> to dance close but when you dance with strangers
Sometimes ya make eye contact with that perfect stranger and ya
just know... The music is right, the mood of the room is right. This
is not the moment to be proper. Communicate visually and if there
are no flinches, embrace your partner. (but don't grab for heaven's
sake) and just dance.
Thank you for your post that does indeed touch on interesting
issues.
Brian Salisbury
Wasatch Tango
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:20:21 -0400
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Mail failure [NOT!]
Dear Listeros,
Does anyone know why, whenever I post a message to the list, I receive a
"Mail failure" note from the Administrator.
My posts are getting through to the List, but I keep getting these messages
that imply that they're not. It started to occur only about a month or 2
ago, and is just a minor annoyance. It's easy enough to simple delete the
message, but I'm curious as to whether anyone else is having the same
experience, or knows how to stop it.
I tried sending an e-mail to the Administrator about the Mail failure
messages, but got a response that said, "Mail failure."
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Catch 22 1/2?
A copy of the failure message follows my signature.
Tangringo
____________________
Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
Harriman, NY
oldzeid @frontiernet.net
Visit us at Hudson Valley Tango
http://nycdc.com/hvtango
===================
Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
===================
> From: Adminstrator <POSTMASTER @diana.akerusa.com>
> To: Walter M. Kane <oldzeid @frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Mail failure
> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 3:00 PM
>
> TO: Walter M. Kane DATE:
06/16/99
> TIME:
13:59
> SUBJECT: Mail failure
>
--
>
> User mail received addressed to the following unknown addresses:
> aoi/main/rgschoenberg
>
>
--
> From: Walter M. Kane [SMTP:oldzeid @frontiernet.net]
> To: TANGO-L [SMTP:TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU]
> Date: 1999-06-16 14:46
> Subject: Re: the perfect follow
>
>
>
> From: Mitchell Levitan Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:20 PM
>
> > ...'perfect follow' should be blind and deaf. Deaf so that the
> > musicality and the beat comes through the lead and blind so that the
> follow
> > is always waiting for direction from the lead ...
>
> I see that some women like to close their eyes when they tango, and I
envy
> them their opportunity to do so. When we dance with no one else around, I
> will close mine sometimes. By closing out other senses, I can let the
sound
> and the touch of tango take over completely.
>
> But deaf? I say no. I want my partner to hear and feel the music. I'll
take
> responsibility for initiating a move and for the direction it will go,
but
> my partner needs to time her steps (and non-steps) to the music. Often
the
> timing is totally dictated by la marca, but there are many opportunities
> where her feet will hit the floor more than once between marks (an
obvious
> example is a molinete for a full turn or more), and she is on her own to
> relate those steps to the music. Also, any adornments she adds between
> steps must relate to the music.
>
> On the other hand, if the guy is going to screw up the rhythm, then she
> might want to stuff some cotton in her ears for 3 minutes, just to get
> through the dance ;-))).
>
> Tangringo
> ____________________
> Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
> Harriman, NY
> oldzeid @frontiernet.net
>
> Visit us at Hudson Valley Tango
> http://nycdc.com/hvtango
> ===================
> Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
> http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
> Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
> ===================
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:05:10 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re[2]: Mail failure [NOT!]
Dear Walter and others:
I recently received a mail failure notice from "Administrator" when
posting to the list. Upon careful examination, I noted that the mail
failur note had not been sent by the administrator of Tango-L but by
an email administrator associated with another domain completely
unrelated to Tango-L.
> From: Adminstrator <POSTMASTER @diana.akerusa.com>
I interpreted the mail failure message to mean that a particular email
address to which the Tango-L listserver forwarded a copy of my message
is no longer valid. Unfortunately, the subscriber had not
unsubscribed from the list. The regular probe conducted by Tango-L
will eventually result in the offending email address being dropped
from the list. In the meantime we all get Mail failure notices.
--Steve
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:58:27 -0700
From: JC Dill <tango @VO.CNCHOST.COM>
Subject: Re: the perfect follow
On 02:20 PM 6/16/99 EDT, Mitchell Levitan wrote:
>I am a relative newcomer to the Argentine tango but from my observations it
>appears the 'perfect follow' should be blind and deaf. Deaf so that the
>musicality and the beat comes through the lead and blind so that the follow
>is always waiting for direction from the lead as from, for instance, a guide
>dog.
I close my eyes all the time when I am enjoying a good dance with a well
matched partner (what bliss :-). But, I *always* listen to the music! As
long as the leader is on time, I can hear both the music and feel his
interpretation of the music, and we can stay in synch. I only have to tune
the music out if he simply can't hear it and dance to it himself, and that
makes the dance unenjoyable, so I don't want to dance with him again.
>To practice a figure repetitively in a class strikes me as somewhat
>self-defeating. When a follow knows where to go and how to move how does that
>improve ones skill as the lead or, for that matter, ones sensitivity as a
>follow?
Repeating the figure is usually necessary for the *leader* to learn the
*order* of the figure. You can't learn to lead it until you know
(remember) what comes next. After you know the order of the parts you wish
to lead that make up the figure, then you can (and should) mix it up so
that you aren't leading the same thing over and over each and every time
you practice.
The instructor will sometimes encourage the class to do this, but each
student learns at a different pace so to be a "good student" you should
just automatically start to do it this way as soon as *you* are ready.
Both your leading skills and your follower's skills will benefit.
>I have a regular partner and I'm not always sure when her movements are in
>response to my lead or to some kind of choreography we have developed between
>us.
Does she follow if you change the move, figure, or pattern midway? If so,
then you are leading and she is following. If an attempt to change midway
causes a problem, then one of you is doing something wrong, but it isn't
easy to diagnose and the cure is usually to just focus on communication and
frame rather than the specific move.
>I don't know if when a mistake is made if it follows from my ineptitude
>as a leader or from her lack of following skills (I almost always suspect the
>former).
What a gentleman! Even if it isn't your fault, focussing on being a better
leader never hurts. The more accurate, the more precise your lead the more
you can compensate for any deficiencies in your follower's abilities to
follow.
>It is gratifying to me when, on occasion, I dance with a different
>partner at a milonga and I am able to lead a figure I have led successfully
>only with my partner and frustrating when I fail.
You should try to dance with other partners more frequently then. This
will be to best way to ensure that you are really leading. When I have one
special partner, I try to dance about 50% of my dances with that one
partner, and the other 50% spread out among the other leaders at the
milonga. This way I still get a lot of special dances with my special
partner, but get to enjoy the variety of other styles and moves the other
leaders have, and keep my following skills sharp.
>I stress "at a milonga" to
>differentiate from those different partners with whom I dance in class who at
>times "back lead " me and, anyway, know what they're expected to do.
Again, the solution here is to start to mix up the order of the things you
lead so that you don't just repeat the same pattern over and over during
the class. Once you *know* the pattern, you *should* start to deviate from
it to ensure that your leading skills and your follower's skills stay sharp.
>Also there is the problem posed by the fact that we, my partner and I, like
>to dance close but when you dance with strangers, either in class or at a
>milonga it is usually at arms length (well not exactly, but you know what I
>mean 'salon'?).
I find that it is usually only at arms length with beginners, primarily
because they don't know how to dance closer rather than they are
uncomfortable dancing closer. If you know how to dance well in a close
frame, and be respectful of a follower's person (e.g. no groping) you
should be able to get a close frame and then be able to dance, practice and
enjoy that close frame with all the followers you dance with. The trick, I
think, is to be able to *invite* the follower to move in to a closer frame
with you, rather than to force it. Perhaps some of the leaders in this
group can elaborate on how they accomplish this.
>My reading of Tango-L leads me to believe that there are many experienced
>tangueros who at some point in their education may have had to resolve such
>questions. I would be extremely interested in hearing your thoughts on these
>subjects as I have enjoyed reading your view on other subjects.
Well, I'm at best "intermediate" at AT rather than "expert", and I'm a
follower, but I hope you find my views helpful.
About mail failure messages:
On 03:05 PM 6/16/99 -0500, Stephen P Brown wrote:
> Dear Walter and others:
>
> I recently received a mail failure notice from "Administrator" when
> posting to the list. Upon careful examination, I noted that the mail
> failur note had not been sent by the administrator of Tango-L but by
> an email administrator associated with another domain completely
> unrelated to Tango-L.
> > From: Adminstrator <POSTMASTER @diana.akerusa.com>
>
> I interpreted the mail failure message to mean that a particular email
> address to which the Tango-L listserver forwarded a copy of my message
> is no longer valid. Unfortunately, the subscriber had not
> unsubscribed from the list. The regular probe conducted by Tango-L
> will eventually result in the offending email address being dropped
> from the list. In the meantime we all get Mail failure notices.
If the list were properly configured, these failure messages would not be
passed back to the poster, but instead forwarded to the list owner, who
should then take appropriate action and remove the dead address. That is
how responsible list administrators setup their lists (I know, I help run
one that is set up that way).
jc
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:22:40 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al @BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: the perfect follow
Mitchell Levitan wrote:
>
> Fellow Listees,
>
> I am a relative newcomer to the Argentine tango but from my observations it
> appears the 'perfect follow' should be blind and deaf. Deaf so that the
> musicality and the beat comes through the lead and blind so that the follow
> is always waiting for direction from the lead as from, for instance, a guide
> dog.
Blind, perhaps (some of my dance partners like to close their eyes at
times) -- deaf, no. While the lead gives direction and structure to the
dance, IMHO, the follower does influence the rythm, amongst others, by
the amount of resistance to movement (and to be honest, most followers
have a better sense of rythm than leaders, so it's just as well -- most
leaders are too busy with other things to be *exact* on the rythm).
--
Alexis Cousein (at home) Systems Engineer
Silicon Graphics Belgium NV/SA
E-mail: al @brussels.sgi.com Office Tel.: +32 2 6790050
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:26:34 -0400
From: danny waggoner <dwag @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Susana Miller - Atlanta
We've received a number of inquiries about Susana Miller's weekend schedule
here in Atlanta. For those who might be interested in times/content:
>*** Workshop particulars***
>
>DATE TIME EVENT PLACE
>
>Thu 6/17 8:00 pm - 10:00 pm Women's Workshop CH*
>
>Fri 6/18 8:00 pm - 10:00 pm Session 1 SDC*
> Foundations: Posture, Balance, Embrace, Walking
>
>
>Sat 6/19 10:00 am - 12:00 pm Session 2 SDC*
> Fundamentals: Posture, Balance, Change of Direction,
> Rhythm, Forward & Back Ocho, Walking
> 12:00 pm - 1:30 pm LUNCH BREAK
>
>Sat 6/19 1:30 pm - 3:30 pm Session 3 SDC*
> Fundamentals: Musicality, Rhythm, Floorcraft, Turns
>=09
>Sat 6/19 9:00 pm 'til MILONGA CH* =09
>
>Sun 6/20 12:30 pm - 3:00 pm Session 4 SDC*
> Interpretation: Dancing to different orchestras, from
> Di Sarli to Pugliese. (2 =BD hrs)=20
>
>Sun 6/20 8:00 - 10:30 pm MILONGA (cover- $8) SANCTUARY* >
>Tue 6/22 8:00 pm - 10:00 pm Session 5 SDC*
> Milonga with Traspie
>
>Wed 6/23 8:00 pm - 10:00 pm Men's Workshop CH*
> Technique; La Marca (the lead)
> =09
>*SDC - Several Dancers Core Studio, 519 N. McDonough Street, downtown=
Decatur=20
>*CH - Charmaine's House, 435 Ivy Park Lane, in Buckhead
>*SANCTUARY - 128 East Andrews Drive NW, in Buckhead=20
>
>Cost: Workshops are $25 per session, except the Sunday 2 =BD hr session=
which
>is $30
>
>
> Private lessons are $60 per hour single, $80 for two people =20
>
>email or call if you'd like more information=20
>
>danny @tango-atlanta.com
>404.371.2795=20
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:59:26 +0200
From: Helaine Treitman <treitman @GIOTTO.ORG>
Subject: Tango in Sicilia?
(versione italiana segue)
My friend Rob Nuijten from Amsterdam who's been traveling and dancing in
Italy now writes from Sicily, asking me to post this message. If you have
any tango contacts for him in Sicily, please email him at
disegno @xs4all.nl. (Then he can also add them to his Go Tango World Wide
page!) Thank you.
Helaine
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Request addressed to those who have Tango contacts towards Sicily...
Please help me to find the Argentine Tango in Sicily. In Cities like
Palermo, Catania, Siracuse, Messina, ...if there is.
Phone numbers, email addresses would be great!
Thanks
Rob Nuijten
Go Tango World Wide
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Mio amico Rob Nuijten dal Amsterdam, qui da un mese a visitare e ballare in
Italia, mi scrive dalla Sicilia, chiedendo che vi mando il seguente
messaggio. Se avete dei contatti di tango in Sicilia, vi prego di mandarlo
un email a disegno @xs4all.nl. Grazie.
Helaine
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Aiutatemi per favore a trovare il Tango Argentino in Sicilia, se esiste
nelle citta' come Palermo, Catania, Sircusa, Messina. Numeri telefonici o
indirizzi email saranno benvenutissimi!
Grazie
Rob Nuijten
Go Tango World Wide
____________________________________________
Rob Nuijten
disegno @xs4all.nl
Disegno, digital publishing
Amsterdam, the Netherlands
+31 (0)20 67413432
Tango on the internet, published by Disegno:
Amsterdam Tango Agenda, concerts and where to dance in Amsterdam:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~disegno/tango/amsterda.html
Go Tango World Wide: the biggest and best updated argentine tango dance
resource on the web:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~disegno/tango/links.html
End of TANGO-L Digest - 16 Jun 1999 to 17 Jun 1999
**************************************************