The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 19 Jul 1999
to 20 Jul 1999
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Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:00:04 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 19 Jul 1999 to 20 Jul 1999
There are 17 messages totalling 682 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Ice tangoing (2)
2. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A1Tango_por_dos!_=5BRe:_LESSONS;_Equality_of_teaching=5D?=
3. New York Buenos Aires Connection
4. looking for Brigitte
5. *ABOVE* the belt? (was:Re: why I may stop)
6. LESSONS
7. The New York Buenos Aires Review (2)
8. Michael Ditkoff (2)
9. GROUP LESSONS (3)
10. Cecilia & Chicho in Tampa,Florida
11. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:______=A1Tango_por_dos!_=5BRe:_LESSONS;_Equality_of_tea?
= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ching=5D?=
12. Thank you (Re: Ice tangoing)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:54:55 +0900
From: Chang Sang Hyeon <schang @TUHEP.PHYS.TOHOKU.AC.JP>
Subject: Ice tangoing
Hi lists,
While I was reading Tango-L postings, some message about 'tango music
for rollerskating" reminded me something I forgot for a while.
Last year, I was watching some ice-skateing match. There was a new
couple (I think they are from US) danced with some Tango musci.
And their choreography was apparantly influnced by AT, they did something
looks like, ocho, giro, gancho( with skate!).. also with those gaze, and
impressions on their face.
Crowd loved their dancing, even sports caster (I think she was former
figure skate champion) was very impressed. "I've never seen such a thing
before, it is beautiful!", she said. But referees were not so impressed,
I guess, since they couldn't get any medal.
I couldn't rember, their name or what kind of championship it was.
Maybe US national...
Does anyone know about them?
Sang
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:08:03 -0400
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A1Tango_por_dos!_=5BRe:_LESSONS;_Equality_of_teaching=5D?=
Melinda wrote (LESSONS):
> ..... content of the class is aimed
> 90% (or more) at the men. This class was not steps, it was about
changing
> direction and rhythm, and it was most useful. However, the class was
really
> all about teaching the men how to execute and lead these moves. I can
> recall only one instance of advice about style being briefly offered to
the
> women.
>... seems as if we are relegated to the status of
> crash test dummy in these situations. =20
I haven't experienced the particular teachers that Melinda is referring t=
o,
and can't comment on them. I will echo Charles Roques' praise (Equality o=
f
teaching) of Florencia Taccetti and Julio Mendez, who, in their recent
workshop at Danel & Maria's Mt. Vernon studio, worked separately, he with
the men and she with the women for and hour, on balance, posture,
coordination and timing; communication of la marca. For the second hour,
men and women were together, continuing the same theme as partners and
working on a few practice exercises to reinforce the lesson.
I'm a little puzzled by Melinda's complaint about the absence of "advice
about style" (for women) in a workshop that concentrated on changing
direction and rhythm. A workshop on style for women is a fine idea, but i=
n
a technique class like the one referenced, I would expect to see men and
women get instruction addressing their respective needs within the same
framework -- in this instance, changing direction and rhythm.=20
>I love the moves we learned this week, but it would have been very easy
(and
> cost nothing) for me just to follow a man who can lead them....
Easy for some, maybe, but challenging for most women. Just as difficult (=
I
think more so) for the women to execute what Melinda refers to as
> .....balance, posture, precise execution of our steps, sensitive
> following, etc. =20
For example, I find (after working on it myself), that a most difficult
movement for the woman is the fundamental element of keeping her balance
forward (and maintaining the connection with her partner) while taking a
backward step. She is executing this movement more than any other, and mo=
st
women cannot do it consistently. It is a somewhat less difficult task for
us men to learn to keep that critical forward balance while stepping
forward. Working together to achieve both requires more than a prop or a
crash dummy for a partner.
=A1Tango por dos!
Tangringo
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:01:28 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: New York Buenos Aires Connection
A tango company calling itself the New York Buenos Aires Connection
now appears to be touring the United States. According to the local
advertising for an upcoming perfomance in Texas, the NYBA Connection
is the premiere tango company in the United States and it includes
both musicians and dancers.
1) About five years ago, two current members of the New York Tango
Trio--Pablo Aslan and Raul Juarena--led a tango orchestra called the
New York Buenos Aires Connection. Are they associated with this
touring company of the same name?
2) Has anyone seen a performance of the NYBA Connection tango company
and wish to offer an opinion about the performance?
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:18:18 EDT
From: Daniela Arcuri <DATango @AOL.COM>
Subject: looking for Brigitte
Can some body help me to find Brigitte, from Berlin.
muchisimas gracias
Daniela Arcuri
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:25:55 +0200
From: "Christoph J.W. Schmees" <cjws @GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: *ABOVE* the belt? (was:Re: why I may stop)
Von: Colin Brace <cb @LIM.NL>
An: TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu <TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu>
Datum: Freitag, 16. Juli 1999 15:43
Betreff: Re: why I may stop
-- snip
>to the music. The essence of tango is the chemistry that happens
between
>two people above the belt (ie, the upper body), not what the
feet are
>doing; it is, in fact, invisible to the outside world (although
the
-- snip
Hi Colin,
what about the part *below* the belt? ... :-))
-- cu, Christoph
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:46:51 -0700
From: Kathleen Bober <kbober @FLASH.NET>
Subject: Re: LESSONS
Melinda -- I agree with your comments about class with Chicho and Cecelia.
I was in Washington, DC last week and, with some hesitation, decided to
take one of their classes.
> We recently had a wonderful class with visiting teachers Chicho and
Cecelia.
> The content was interesting and it was well taught.
> ... the content of the class is aimed 90% (or more) at the men.
> I can recall only one instance of advice about style being briefly
offered to the women.
> ... it sometimes seems as if we are relegated to the status of
> crash test dummy in these situations.
> ... what is supposed to be in this for the women? Is this how it always
is?
I say hesitation since I was not familiar with their style of teaching, nor
were any of my friends. As I stood watching the last 15 minutes of the
class before mine I was concerned to see that generally Chicho and Cecelia
only observed the class from off to one side. Occasionally Cecelia would
come into the group and work with someone, but it was not the involvement I
have come to expect from teachers. If I had not been told by a friend (and
an accomplished dancer) that the class had been worthwhile I probably would
have left.
For the most part I agree with Melinda -- I felt like a prop for the men in
the class. It was billed as an intermediate class, but it seemed many were
beginners. Chicho did focus on the men, but perhaps he did so because it
was his judgement that he needed to. I might have walked away feeling like
I learned nothing, but I didn't because I asked questions within the group
as well as individually asking Chicho and Cecelia for critiques of me and
my partners. I was very impressed at how thoroughly Chico answered my
questions.
Melinda, I hope you do not get put off about taking group classes. They can
be exceptionally well structured. I have taken classes with as many
instructors as possible during the past year and it's obvious that some
teachers understand how to approach groups better than others. Just as an
example, Nito and Elba Garcia are two of the finest teachers that I have
experienced. They both work tirelessly to give their individual attention
to everyone in their classes, and teach valuable technique to both men and
women.
Since we're on the subject of teaching styles I would love to hear from
anyone who attended Nora's Tango Week. I attended the weekend of classes
with Nito and Elba, Orlando and Susana, Indio and Mariana, and Roberto and
Guillermina. All were excellent! I'll save my specific comments for another
message, but I would like to hear from others about their experiences.
I also want to remind everyone about our milonga in Tucson at the Sheraton
El Conquistador this Thursday evening from 9 - midnight. Please contact me
for more information.
Kathleen Bober
<kbober @flash.net>
Tucson, AZ
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:16:42 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: The New York Buenos Aires Review
What couldn't I say about this fabulous group, there wonderful?
They have been in Cleveland once before, at The Cleveland Museum of Art, with
Tioma and Vivianna dancing to there music, and they brought the house down.
They couldn't play enough encores.
They have played for President Clinton in the white house, with Robert Duvall
dancing to their music.
They were formed in 1990 has performed throughout the United States, Europe,
Canada, Russia, and South America. The group combines a solid grounding in
the tango tradition with a contemporary sound influenced by jazz and
classical music. They have performed at the 2nd and 3rd international Tango
Summits, toured Europe with the Irene Hultman Dance Company, and accompanied
cellist Yo-Yo Ma in a performance if music from his CDsoul of the Tango.
they are returning to the Cleveland Museum of Art again, Friday July 30 to a
SOLD OUT performance. Fabian and Roxanna from Canada, will be dancing to
their music
On Saturday, July 31 Pablo Aslan will teach his famous Musicality class,
teaching you everything about the tango music, at the Diamondback Brewery 724
Prospect Rd. Cleveland, Ohio, at 10:00 a.m. in the morning before they return
to New York.
Breakfast Buffet is included.
Fabian and Roxanna will also be staying in the Cleveland area one more day,
teaching private lessons all day and at 7:30 p.m. will host a Milonga at the
Diamondback Brewery.
A 60 minute group lesson at 7:30 with more dancing demonstrations at 9:30.
Any one interested in attending Musicality class or Milonga, or Private
Lessons please contact TimmyTango at 440/327-8211 or this E;mail address
Tim Pogros
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:18:42 -0800
From: "Percell R. St. Thomass" <dancealaska @ALASKA.COM>
Subject: Michael Ditkoff
Michael,
You wrote me privately responding to my posting on Tango-L. I stated
several times that my reply to your posting was NOT a personal attack. It
was my intention to merely bring to mind some things about dance that you
might not have learned or been aware of. To be called wrong is not a bad
thing. It is how we learn. That's nothing to be ashamed of...I, as are we
all, are still learning (especially this monster called Argentine Tango).
I often blame my seemingly lack of tact on my God-given right as a
Parisian. It is only that I am very passionate about "real" dancing...the
kind that so many people miss out on because all they see or get out of it
are some of the things that you wrote. Merely an opinion. "Real" dancing
is the subject for another time. However, my, fortunately many, students
don't think of me as arrogant at all...moreso, as one of the most humble
people they've ever met. I am also a man of integrity. Since you stated
that I embarrassed you in front of 1,000 people on the list...allow me to
apologize before those same 1,000. As I stated originally, it was not my
intention to insult, but to enlighten. My hope for you is that you
continue to dance...continue to learn...continue to grow. Have a better
weekend.
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:33:45 -0800
From: "Percell R. St. Thomass" <dancealaska @ALASKA.COM>
Subject: Michael Ditkoff
I received a return mail notification, so I am resending this.
Michael,
You wrote me privately responding to my posting on Tango-L. I stated
several times that my reply to your posting was NOT a personal attack. It
was my intention to merely bring to mind some things about dance that you
might not have learned or been aware of. To be called wrong is not a bad
thing. It is how we learn. That's nothing to be ashamed of...I, as are we
all, are still learning (especially this monster called Argentine Tango).
I often blame my seemingly lack of tact on my God-given right as a
Parisian. It is only that I am very passionate about "real" dancing...the
kind that so many people miss out on because all they see or get out of it
are some of the things that you wrote. Merely an opinion. "Real" dancing
is the subject for another time. However, my, fortunately many, students
don't think of me as arrogant at all...moreso, as one of the most humble
people they've ever met. I am also a man of integrity. Since you stated
that I embarrassed you in front of 1,000 people on the list...allow me to
apologize before those same 1,000. As I stated originally, it was not my
intention to insult, but to enlighten. My hope for you is that you
continue to dance...continue to learn...continue to grow. Have a better
weekend.
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:40:38 -0500
From: dmcree <dmcree @BHIP.INFI.NET>
Subject: GROUP LESSONS
Hello list members,
It has been over a year I think since there has been discussion on this list
about group classes generally being weighted more heavily toward teaching
men, while leaving the ladies standing around like "practice dummies." This
is without question a valid concern.
Not to be left out, men also have criticisms of group classes. I have taken
a number of group classes, most of which were "tango weekend"-type events.
After avoiding group classes for the past year or so, and after giving much
thought to attending groups, I have lowered my expectations of such classes,
such as they are today.
If I had to pick the most often repeated complaint at any dance, in any
style, anywhere, I would not have any trouble: It is women complaining that
"men don't know how to lead." So I think it is no accident that many
instructors spend a lot more time teaching men to lead than they do teaching
women to follow. This results in ladies like Melinda feeling like a practice
dummy. I can fully sympathize with this, as I've spent many group classes
trying to support women who desperately needed to learn how to keep their
balance while doing a simple ocho. After 2 or 3 hours of this I'm too tired
to even remember what I was paying to learn.
Perhaps we as paying students need to take a more active role in
determining what is taught in our tango workshops. Melinda indicated that
she is happy to help the men "practice" and I would not hesitate to be a
"balance pole" in a ladies only class. So, perhaps a more equitably designed
workshop would help men and women feel that they are getting what they
expect from a class: A men only class, a ladies only class, with the rest
attempting to achieve a balance. I once took a men only class with Armando.
It was helpful, but we didn't have any practice dummies;-)
Since I am not an organizer of workshops, I don't know what kind of
difficulties are presented by trying to design a better workshop. Surely
though, we have a right to get what we pay for. The choice, I suppose, is
between raising the standards or lowering our expectations.
Here's to someone who can organize an equitable workshop!
David McRee, Bradenton, Florida, USA
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:52:49 -0500
From: dmcree <dmcree @BHIP.INFI.NET>
Subject: Cecilia & Chicho in Tampa,Florida
Hello again list members,
It seems that Cecilia & Chicho are generating a lot of discussion on this
list. I've been taking it all in. On August 6th, 7th, and 8th, I will have
the opportunity to discover for myself what this "new tango" or "liquid
tango" is all about. Cecilia and Chicho will be in the Tampa Bay area that
weekend for a workshop. They will also be performing along with Fernanda and
Guillermo and others, to the live Tango of Miguel Arrabal and his group, and
to the singing of Daniel Bouchet.
We invite any and all who may be interested to come and join us for the
weekend or the Sunday night show. For more information please visit the
following site:
http://www.bhip.infi.net/~dmcree/weekend.htm
Out of respect for the value of your time, the informational pages are
text-only and will load quickly. One page has a few photos if you wish to
view them.
I have no financial interest in the event.
David McRee, humble webmaster.
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:04:31 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:______=A1Tango_por_dos!_=5BRe:_LESSONS;_Equality_of_tea?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?ching=5D?=
From: Walter M.
> Melinda wrote (LESSONS):
>
> > ..... content of the class is aimed
> > 90% (or more) at the men.... the class was
> really
> > all about teaching the men how to execute and lead these moves. I can
> > recall only one instance of advice about style being briefly offered to
> the
> > women.
> >... seems as if we are relegated to the status of
> > crash test dummy in these situations.
>
> I haven't experienced the particular teachers that Melinda is referring
to,
> and can't comment on them. I will echo Charles Roques' praise (Equality of
> teaching) of Florencia Taccetti and Julio Mendez, who, in their recent
> workshop at Danel & Maria's Mt. Vernon studio, worked separately, he with
> the men and she with the women for and hour, on balance, posture,
> coordination and timing; communication of la marca. For the second hour,
> men and women were together, continuing the same theme as partners and
> working on a few practice exercises to reinforce the lesson.
That sounds like a wonderful class. One of the things I liked about Chicho
and Cecelia is that they did not just demonstrate a step over and over.
They wanted the students to understand the movement, how it works, and what
some of the variations might be that we could figure out ourselves after the
class. Still, figuring out a figure is of only modest use to me - am I
supposed to suggest it to a man while he is leading me in a dance?
During a later demonstration I noticed that they incorporated this technique
to great effect, it really is lovely. But my favorite part was the little
embellishments which Cecelia added to the dance, but did not offer to the
women during the class.
> I'm a little puzzled by Melinda's complaint about the absence of "advice
> about style" (for women) in a workshop that concentrated on changing
> direction and rhythm. A workshop on style for women is a fine idea, but in
> a technique class like the one referenced, I would expect to see men and
> women get instruction addressing their respective needs within the same
> framework -- in this instance, changing direction and rhythm.
OK, great. please tell me here WHAT the woman should have been learning.
The man leads the change of direction, we don't do it on our own. Learning
when he should/might do it is not a technique for me - is it? You could
reasonably say that learning to WAIT and not assume the next step is an
important lesson for women, since the change of direction depends upon our
not committing ourselves to something not yet led. Maybe that is what they
wanted. If so, it was a little subtle for me.
> >I love the moves we learned this week, but it would have been very easy
> (and
> > cost nothing) for me just to follow a man who can lead them....
>
> Easy for some, maybe, but challenging for most women. Just as difficult (I
> think more so) for the women to execute what Melinda refers to as
>
> > .....balance, posture, precise execution of our steps, sensitive
> > following, etc.
>
Except that there was NO input from the teachers about those things for the
women, unless they spoke privately to some, and not to me. And my general
point is that this is common in classes, not specific to these two teachers.
Difficult also to practice balance while the man is struggling to master the
lead and step and is most likely to be off balance (and pulling his partner
off balance) until he gets it. At this point we really are just helping
them learn.
> For example, I find (after working on it myself), that a most difficult
> movement for the woman is the fundamental element of keeping her balance
> forward (and maintaining the connection with her partner) while taking a
> backward step. She is executing this movement more than any other, and
most
> women cannot do it consistently. It is a somewhat less difficult task for
> us men to learn to keep that critical forward balance while stepping
> forward. Working together to achieve both requires more than a prop or a
> crash dummy for a partner.
>
But it would be twice as difficult for the woman to try to be practicing
that while the man is temporarily off balance during HIS learning process.
He is not focusing on balance, and posture, he is trying to get the
technique and how to lead it. Balance comes after.
I agree we can learn the feel of a technique, and this is useful. But I
still think, all things being equal, we should then see the men signing up
for the women's workshops to help US work on balance, posture, execution,
etc. (I'm not holding my breath! :-)
Thanks for your input.
Melinda
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:40:23 -0400
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: GROUP LESSONS
From: dmcree Monday, July 19, 1999 8:40 PM
> ...discussion on this list
> about group classes generally being weighted more heavily toward teaching
> men, while leaving the ladies standing around like "practice dummies."
>.. men also have criticisms of group classes. ... I've spent many group
classes
> trying to support women who desperately needed to learn how to keep their
> balance while doing a simple ocho.
Is this the blame game? Perhaps we shouldn't judge from the few recent
posts on the subject, but it appears that the men and women are each
blaming students of the opposite sex (as well as the instructors) for their
lack of benefit from group classes.
The men use the women as practice-dummies as they fumble through trying to
learn technique, and the women use the men as balance poles to support them
while they learn how to perform an ocho or (good heavens!) a molinete.
Maybe part of the answer lies in the subject of another recent discussion,
and that is proper pairing of partners in a workshop. Absent the supposed
ideal of everyone in the class having the same level of expertise (whatever
that means), can a student assume the responsibility of coming with, or at
least trying to arrange to pair up with a partner working at roughly
similar skills? This may be a good reason for not arbitrarily rotating
partners in a class, but that could depend on the type of material being
taught.
Another (I think more important) part of the answer could lie in the
attitude we bring to a class. If we're looking to sit in judgment of the
cost/benefit ratio from the moment we walk in, chances are we'll be
disappointed. If we go in with the notion of coming out with one
quantifiable increment of improvement in our tango skill, I dare say we'll
find it. Do the workshop just for the fun of it, and see what happens.
Incidentally, if it turns out that you spend any of your precious time
there helping your partner learn something, chances are that the experience
will improve your tango as well. It's amazing how much you find out about
what you thought you knew when you try to help someone else learn it.
Tangringo
____________________
Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
Harriman, NY
oldzeid @frontiernet.net
Visit us at Hudson Valley Tango
http://nycdc.com/hvtango
===================
Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
===================
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:02:55 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: The New York Buenos Aires Review
IMPORTANT CORRECTION:
The New York Buenos Aires Tango Connection is indeed wonderful, but they did
not play at the White House last January for the President. The ensemble
which performed, and to which Robert Duvall and Pablo Veron danced, is
QuinTango, a local Washington DC ensemble, with the direction and fabulous
addition of Raul Jaurena, international bandoneon star, of NYBATC. They
were electrifying, as is the NYBATC.
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:29:16 -0400
From: e_mass <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: GROUP LESSONS
>
> The men use the women as practice-dummies as they fumble through trying to
> learn technique, and the women use the men as balance poles to support
them
> while they learn how to perform an ocho or (good heavens!) a molinete.
>
During my last group class with Omar Vega my partner of a certain point (we
practiced "... and now switch partner") felt good learning with me, and
relaxed her
head on my shoulder (she was as tall as my shoulder). I am not sure, but
she
could have been fallen asleep at that point.
We continued practicing in this very sweet way, until Omar came close to us,
and,
with a big smile, told her "... You are supposed to keep your axis....".
Should I blame the lady for taking advantage of my shoulder????? .
.... NO, I think I will not!
Ciao,
Enrico
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:10:31 -0700
From: Pelayo Llamas <pelayojr @LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: Re: Ice tangoing
I saw the same performance. The couple is Punsalan & Swallow of the
USA. I believe they turned professional. I agree the performance at
the Olympics was wonderful, to the music of Piazolla, and they did many
AT moves. It takes guts to be gancho'd by someone wearing blades on
their feet. I don't know how much they are performing now.
Chang Sang Hyeon wrote:
>
> Hi lists,
>
> While I was reading Tango-L postings, some message about 'tango music
> for rollerskating" reminded me something I forgot for a while.
> Last year, I was watching some ice-skateing match. There was a new
> couple (I think they are from US) danced with some Tango musci.
>
> Does anyone know about them?
>
> Sang
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:29:08 +0900
From: Chang Sang Hyeon <schang @TUHEP.PHYS.TOHOKU.AC.JP>
Subject: Thank you (Re: Ice tangoing)
Thank you for people who replied to my posting.
Michael, Robert, Pelayo, Martha and Sabine.. (I hope I don't miss anyone).
>From your replies I could figure out who them were and where they danced.
It looks like the couple I saw was Punsalan & Swallow from USA.
They made fifth in international championship with Piazzolla's music
and AT.
What I am suprised now is that there are many more world class
ice-dancing team who dance AT in competition. Sabine and other mentioned
former world champion from Russia Grishuk and Platov danced AT and
Tango dancer from BsAs Guillermina and Roberto Reis helped them to
choreograph their dance.
It looks like the only world-wide televised competition where Tango
is in, is free style ice-dancing. :)
Sang
End of TANGO-L Digest - 19 Jul 1999 to 20 Jul 1999
**************************************************