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Digest from 12 Jul 1999
to 13 Jul 1999
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 12 Jul 1999 to 13 Jul 1999
There are 13 messages totalling 623 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. And then there's Hernan
2. Hernan #2
3. PLease....take me of this list
4. Why people give up on Tango (3)
5. Tango Romeos and Hustlers (2)
6. visit Florencia, Bologna, Paris, Sud de Francia y home en Buenos Aires
7. EARLY FORMS OF TANGO - CANDOMBE - CORTES Y QUEBRADAS
8. SV: Tango CD !
9. Cheers?
10. Translation for Lidia Ferrarri
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 04:02:39 +0000
From: Keith Elshaw <elshaw @INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: And then there's Hernan
Recently there has been another thread about Argentinian teachers. There
seems to be a lot of them around these days.
I for one take this as an indication that the "market" is growing; that
there is more interest and there are more opportunities for Argentines
in North America and Europe to teach and spread the word - and that is
a good thing. Promoters might be feeling some saturation pressures
lately, but it must be a positive when so many teachers are circulating
and spreading the culture.
I'm writing from a middling market in Tango terms: we're not big and
we're not sophisticated - but we're not isolated either.
It's sort of like major-league sports ... there are the big rich markets
that get everything, the next tier that gets some of the good stuff,
then the bottom bulge that dreams of getting into the action and is
sort-of there - but doesn't have the base support. A trickle-down
process is happening, one hopes.
The differences aren't delineated only by population size. I gather
Seattle/Portland, Denver/Boulder and Tampa Bay to name but a few are
almost major-league. Good for them. From Toronto, a much larger city, I
admit envy at their activity level.
There is money enough here to justify big shows coming in (we rank #2 in
North America after NYC in theatrical revenue) if they are properly
promoted, but the pickings are slim for the big-name Tango teachers
coming on their own. Too slim to make it work at the present time. We've
never seen the big big stars. (Correction - we had Copes and Pepito
actually living here at the same time for 6 whole months 9 years ago ...
but that was a double blip on the monitor. It's like it never happened.
Can you imagine?)
Perhaps if they lived here now we would have people coming from all over
the north-east to study with them. We're more connected via the web and
via knowledgeable leaders who have friends in other cities. But that was
then, and this is now.
Now we've been though a waste-land-type experience for nearly a decade.
Slowly, we're getting on our feet and becoming worthy of a look from
touring teachers. But in truth this is only happening because a couple
of people have established relationships with Montr=E9alers.
I don't think it would be incorrect to characterize Montr=E9al as
major-league on the Tango circuit. Many of the Tangueros there have been
to Buenos Aires once or more; there is a large base; it is sophisticated
and deep. They've seen virtually all of the touring teachers of note
over the last decade.
As I'm not a Montr=E9aler, I hope my impressions can be seen as objective.
It seems to me that these discerning people have made a valuable
discovery. They've taken to one Hern=E1n Obispo. Twice now he has been
fully engaged teaching there for 2 months at a time.
Hern=E1n just made the effort to come to Toronto. This coming week he wil=
l
be in Minneapolis. After that, he'll be back home in Bs.As.
I met him in Montr=E9al and took classes. It was one of those "he changed
my life in 20 minutes" experiences. In Toronto I've just now had 16
hours of classes with him.
If this post was just about - wow, I've had classes with this teacher
and I really like him - I wouldn't expect you to give it much credence.
Maybe ... maybe not ... you know.
I've been around the block a couple of times. Perhaps you've been around
it more than me.
But with all my heart I want you to note this man's name and keep your
eye out for him.
He is exceptional. I say that knowing I am doing him no injustice or
creating false expectations.
I won't bore you with a long description of his attributes, save telling
you I've never seen anyone who so completely knows what to do and how to
do it (for every level of student). He teaches the real Tango of
Milongueros.
He's a people person. He doesn't sit over in a corner smoking cigarettes
and wishing he were back home, either.
He is a teacher with a capital "T".
I know he isn't "known" on the circuit yet; and I know I'm nobody to be
recommending someone.
But I do know Hern=E1n is going to be very well known and loved as time
goes by.
I would like to list all of the reasons for making these statements -
in fact I'm eager to - but this post is already long enough. This post
isn't meant to be about what I think. I just want you to be aware of
Hern=E1n.
(I'm putting an accent over the last "a" in his name - I hope your
browser is reading that correctly. I do the same with the last "e" in
Montr=E9al. Maybe one day all browsers and operating systems will render
accents correctly).
One final point: I've seen teachers come through here after being in
Montr=E9al, who then went on to other markets in the U.S., who have had
glowing reviews on Tango-L ... and I wonder what the reviewers were on
when they wrote the posts. Rather - hadn't they ever seen good teachers?
Well, they liked the person. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Not everyone has a background from which to judge, just as not every
teacher is always good or bad.
I can only say that your correspondant has a pretty broad exposure to
both Argentines and to teachers.
You want Hern=E1n in your city. I've seen him in enough situations and
over a long-enough period of time to say this.
I put up a web page about him a few weeks ago
(http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw/hernan.html) and it will shortly have
an email link so you can reach him directly.
I reiterate the point that - if he's done so well in Montr=E9al over the
last 2 years - he must be something.
He is.
Best regards,
Keith Elshaw
ToTango
http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw
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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 04:31:22 +0000
From: Keith Elshaw <elshaw @INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Hernan #2
I was remiss in not mentioning that Hern=E1n's partner on this teaching
tour is Natalia Mazer - a young woman who impresses with her ability and
knowledge of the teaching process.
She understands and helps create the dynamic of teaching from the
woman's point-of-view that is so important to the over-all picture.
Natalia is a person you look at and say, I know she will be well-known
in the future.
Some people just make a mark because they have it ...
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 01:54:18 PDT
From: tina skjoldager <tskjoldager @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: PLease....take me of this list
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:48:00 -0400
From: Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV>
Subject: Why people give up on Tango
Manuel asked in a previous message "The real problem seems
to be retaining tango dancers. Why people start and stop
dancing tango is a good question."
Considering that I've stopped counting the number of times I'd
thought of giving up tango (thank goodness I didn't give up) I
can give some perspective.
I thought tango would be easy to learn because I had danced
ballroom for a year before attempting tango. I was WRONG!! In
ballroom, there are prescribed steps to figures which both
partners have to know. Also, most (I don't want to stick my
already short neck out any further) dances are always on
parallel feet. (In American Tango, the woman fans and ochos on
the right side of the man so they remain on parallel feet.)
Anyway, in the group lessons I've attended, most, not all,
teachers concentrate on steps and counting, such as the woman
always crosses on four. (It could be five if the man begins
with the notorious and dangerous back step.) With that type
of teaching, I've danced with beginners who always cross on
four (or five) even if I DON'T lead them to cross.
Tango is a dance of improvisation. You can lead ochos and
throw in a grapevine and next time leave out the grapevine.
But in ballroom, once you begin a figure, you have to finish
the figure, because it's memorized.
The improvisation aspect and the greater freedom it allows can
be overwhelming. There ISN'T a strict cadence, as in ballroom
(slow-slow quick-quick slow or slow-slow quick-quick) For
myself, the most difficult aspect was remembering which foot
the woman is standing on.
You can learn basic fox-trot after one lesson. It takes many
months and lessons to dance argentine tango POORLY!
If not for the support of women who encouraged me to stick
with it, sacrificing their feet and toes to my ineptitude, I
would have been gone.
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:02:27 -0400
From: e_mass <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Romeos and Hustlers
Teaching Tango is a business.
Offending your customers (or a number of them) is a bad business
practice, whatever you are selling: tango lessons or candy bars.
Who is in charge and control of the "teaching tango business" in
the United States? Mostly GRINGOS, not portenos.
These GRINGOS are inviting visiting masters, and their GRINGO culture
is more involved with business, business practices and customer
support.
Most, is not all, these GRINGOS are on this list, if they don't already
have,
they will form an opinion on the different "customer orientation"
of the individual visiting masters, from the posting on the list, and will
decide if they are going to invite them next time OR NOT in their tango
community.
I hope these visiting master have some sort of access to the feedback
from the list, so that they, so well versed in tango steps, can also learn
a little bit of the reality on the business practices, if they want to
survive more
than a few years, or a few months, in this business in the United States.
Enrico
By the way, I know personally a number of resident, or visiting porteno
masters who have nothing to learn about business practices, or even nothing
to learn as "complete and pleasurable persons", such as:
Daniela and Armando, Gavito, Laura Brondo and Daniel Lapadula,
Jorge and Kerina, Cecilia, Guillermo and Fernanda, and many more that
don't come immediately to my mind, but are equally impressive as persons as
well as (usually traditional) tango dancers.
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:55:52 -0400
From: chris humphrey <humphrey @MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tango Romeos and Hustlers
On the subject of visiting teachers and their attitudes
toward their students...
I find that I learn far more from teachers who treat
their students with respect than I do from teachers who
assume their students are inept and incapable of ever
mastering the dance.
One couple stands out in my mind as being exemplary
teachers in that they
(1) assume that their students are there to learn
and improve themselves;
(2) have put in enough years and miles on the dance
floor that they have nothing to prove to anybody
and therefore are not threatened that someone might
actually do something well;
(3) are as generous with their praise as they are
with their criticism and correction.
I'll give any visiting master a chance to teach
me something; I figure each one has *something*
to offer. But abuse? Discourtesy? Snobbery?
No thank you. I don't expect to be coddled; if I'm
doing something wrong, I want correction -- that's
what I'm there for. On the other hand, if I'm doing
well, it's nice to hear it; it encourages me to do
even better.
The bottom line is, I don't learn well from people who
treat me badly, and they simply won't get my money
next time they're in town. And I can learn almost
anything from a teacher who expects that I can.
Kudos of the highest magnitude to those teachers
who travel just as many miles and work just as
many hours as the prima donnas and actually leave
the student feeling good about his/her progress and
inspired to keep working at it.
chris
==================================================
"... the most expedient and certainly the best way to learn to
dance is to stand up and try it; no one can ever learn by sitting
quietly and looking on."
George E. Wilson, "Wilson's Ball-Room Guide and Call Book," 1884.
Chris Humphrey/Biomedical Engineering Program
The University of Texas at Austin/Austin, TX 78712
512-471-1826/512-471-0616 (fax)
humphrey @mail.utexas.edu
==================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:08:01 -0400
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Why people give up on Tango
From: Michael Ditkoff Monday, July 12, 1999 10:48 AM
=20
> Manuel asked in a previous message "The real problem seems
> to be retaining tango dancers. Why people start and stop
> dancing tango is a good question."
(snip)-------------
> ... It takes many months and lessons to dance=20
> argentine tango POORLY!
Maybe so, depending on how one might define "poorly," but it only takes a=
n
hour to experience the embrace (no matter how "poorly" executed), and to
walk together to el comp=E1s del tango. For anyone who discovers that
feeling, there is no stopping and no turning back.
Tangringo
____________________
Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
Harriman, NY
oldzeid @frontiernet.net
Visit us at Hudson Valley Tango
http://nycdc.com/hvtango
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=20
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:10:47 -0700
From: Greg Olsen at Work <golsen @NONSTOP.COM>
Subject: Re: Why people give up on Tango
I have been assisting my instructor, Christy Cote, with a beginning class
in Argentine tango for a couple of months, and I am amazed a how quickly
her students have been learning tango. Her teaching methodology is
about learning a vocabulary of movement, and enforcing some creativity
early on. It is not a figure-based approach using the dreaded 8-count
basic salida with a cross, which is taught by so many tango instructors.
(That was how I first learned tango.) It is about learning to walk, turn,
and do ochos. With that basic vocabulary you can dance all night.
After only 2-3 weeks, the students are able to get around a dance floor.
Sure there is a lifetime's worth of material to learn in tango. There is
in any dance. International style foxtrot is called the $10,000 dance because
it takes that much money in instruction just to dance it badly. The
main thing is to enjoy the process of learning.
Happy trails,
Greg Olsen
>From: Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV>
[-snip-]
>
> You can learn basic fox-trot after one lesson. It takes many
> months and lessons to dance argentine tango POORLY!
>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:33:42 -0300
From: Lidia Ferrari <lferrari @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: visit Florencia, Bologna, Paris, Sud de Francia y home en Buenos Aires
Hola Tangueros.
Jos=E9 Luis Lussini y yo, Lidia Ferrari estamos viajando a Europa en
el mes de septiembre, entonces:
1. Viajamos a Europa en el mes de septiembre. Dejamos nuestra
casa a cuidado de la mam=E1 de Jos=E9 Luis pero nuestra casa es
grande, ubicada en el barrio de Palermo, Paraguay y Bonpland,
con gran jardin, parrilla, dos dormitorios, cocina, comedor, ba=F1o y
gran sal=F3n de baile y que podr=EDamos alquilar
a 1 o 2 tanguero/s que est=E9n por aqui en esa fecha.
Pueden ver fotos de la misma en el sitio:
www.buenosairestango.com/Alojamiento/alojam.htm
SI alguien est=E1 interesado me puede escribir.
2. Estamos invitados a dar clases de Tango en
Francia e Italia. Como sobre todo es un viaje de paseo
y queremos conocer milongas de esos lados,
nos gustar=EDa escuchar referencias
de milongas y sitios de tango en:
Florencia, Venecia, Bologna, Montpellier, Toulouse, Paris,
Barcelona, Niza y lugares cercanos a esas ciudades.
Si alguien quiere traducir esta carta al ingl=E9s se lo agradecer=E9.
Cari=F1os desde Buenos Aires
Lidia Ferrari y Jos=E9 Luis Lussini
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:07:15 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: EARLY FORMS OF TANGO - CANDOMBE - CORTES Y QUEBRADAS
We can see then that tango originates, like most of the other ball- room
dances from an interaction between African and European elements.
Due to this fact most of the dances of today originated in the American
Continent.
Exceptions: Paso Doble - (Spain) Waltz - (Austria) Polka - (Poland)
USA. Swing - Rock and Roll- Fox- Trot - Blues
CUBA: Cha-Cha - Rumba - Mambo - ? Bolero
Puerto Rico: Salsa
Dominican Republic: Merengue
Colombia: Cumbia
Brasil: Samba
Argentina : TANGO
CANDOMBE: It was a slow voluptuous dance.It was done with CORTES (CUTS) AND
QUEBRADAS (TO BREACK THE LINE OF THE BODY).
QUEBRADAS: It meant to undulate the body with some lower abdominal and hip
motion that was very erotic; there was complete contact of the dancers. The
compadritos referred to this movements describing them as those performed as
if a mouse had entered the shirt of the negro dancer.
CORTES (cuts) : The dancers normally moved snake like following a straight
line; then all of the sudden a turn or another move to exhibit skills and
shines cut the line of dance or "corrida" (run).
Till the next tango - SERGIO
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:26:11 +0200
From: Pino Dangiola <pino.dangiola @SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: SV: Tango CD !
Look at=20
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-42366/cd.html
and you will find it.
MVH
Pino Dangiola
Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Laurie Moseley (at home) <LGMoseley @AOL.COM>
Till: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Datum: den 12 juli 1999 19:25
=C4mne: (no subject)
>I'm trying to find a Pugliese CD which contains Gallo Ciego. If anyone =
knows
>of such a CD, I'd be grateful if they'd let me know.
>
>With thanks
>
>Laurie (Laurence)
>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:20:29 +0200
From: Colin Brace <cb @LIM.NL>
Subject: Re: Cheers?
On 07/09/99 at 02:48 PM, Planet Tango <tangoman @HOOKED.NET> wrote:
> I'd like to propose a truce to the "trashing and bashing" of Argentine
> eating habits, and to the "simplification and definition" of a foreign
> nation based on limited and sometimes prejudicial personal
> experiences.
Apparently, because you are Argentine and/or you disagree with the
opinions expressed, the latter are "limited and prejudicial". If we were
praising Argentine cuisine to the heavens, I have no doubt you would be
commending us for our erudition and good taste. For better or worse,
Buenos Aires is the mecca for the tango world, most of the people on
this list have been or will go there at least once in their lives, and
tango dancers have to eat too. Ergo, the tango-l list seems to me to be
as suitable a place as any to discuss the dietary amenities of that city
or the lack thereof.
> Today, the nation of Argentina celebrates 183 years of
> independence from Spain. The declaration of Independence took place in
> 1816, six years after the 25 of May of 1810, date in which the
> Republica Argentina was born out of a desire to break away from
> colonialism and exploitation.
Pity the place is such a mess. Menem and his pals have sold off the
crown jewels by means of that clever parlour game, privatization, and
are now busy turning Argentina into a servile client state of the US
economic system. (cf, the current finance minister's plan announced in
February to dump the peso altogether in favor of the dollar, thereby
surrendering all control of the Argentine economy to Wall Street.) This
new neo-colonial scheme, whereby the American overlord reaps all
benefits of imperial domination with none of the responsibilities, makes
the bad old colonial ways look good, if only because the power
structures of the latter were at least transparent. Thanks to the
current neo-liberal regime, the Argentine economy will *shrink* by 4%
this year, according to estimates of the World Bank, bringing untold
human misery in un- and under-employment. The middle-class is virtually
decimated, while a small top-percentile is getting stinking rich.
Off topic? Perhaps. No, I don't believe you need any insights into
political economy to dance to a tango of Pugliese. But it would take a
pretty myopic tango dancer not to notice that Argentina is a society in
decay, as the Argentines themselves will tell you after a few drinks,
and inevitably this has ramifications for the tango culture. Fewer and
fewer maestri are able to survive financially by teaching in BsAs, and
now have to spend a few months a year teaching in Europe or North
America, fewer and fewer older dancers who have to live on state
pensions can afford an evening out (or perhaps they are just tired of
being shoved and gancho'ed by young kids who have just attended a class
with Naveira/Salas/et al). It acerbates the tendency of the Argentines
to cannibalize their own culture to make a quick buck.
My favorite restaurant in BsAs is Los Chilenos on Suipacha (I think).
The Congrio is to die for. And they mix a formidable Pisco Sour.
--
Colin Brace <cb @lim.nl>
Amsterdam
http://www.lim.nl/tango
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:49:40 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Translation for Lidia Ferrarri
Hola Tangueros,
Jose Luis Lussini and I, Lidia Ferrari will travel to Europe during the
month of September.
1. We have a large home located in the neighborhood of Palermo,
Streets,Paraguay and Bonpland. It has a large garden, barbeque area, two
bedrooms, kitchen, dining-room, bathroom and large dancing floor.
We would like to rent it to 1 or 2 tangueros that might be here around that
date. Interested persons can see pictures of the house visiting:
www.buenosairestango.com/Alojamiento/alojam.htm
Should anyone be interested please write.
2. We are invited to teach Tango in France and Italy. despite of that this
is mainly a leisure trip; we would like to know places where to dance in
Florence,Venice,Bologna, Montpellier, Toulouse, Paris, Barcelona, Niza, and
place around those cities.
Best regards, from Buenos Aires
Lidia Ferrari and Jose Luis Lussini
End of TANGO-L Digest - 12 Jul 1999 to 13 Jul 1999
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