The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 10 Jul 1999
to 11 Jul 1999
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 10 Jul 1999 to 11 Jul 1999
There are 13 messages totalling 611 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Roberto and Guillermina are Back!!
2. Food in Argentine
3. Santa Fe Retreat
4. When tango rhymes with dough or dineiro
5. De-Programming (2)
6. New tango
7. Early forms of Tango...
8. Tagno in Andalusia (Spain)?
9. Tango Kinesis, Massachusetts, and Avignon
10. Tango At Adventura
11. No Subject
12. Classes with Marta Anton and Luis Grondona
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:48:20 EDT
From: "J. Martinez" <DancinSalr @AOL.COM>
Subject: Roberto and Guillermina are Back!!
Yes, they are back in New York for a short while and will be teaching and
performing.
Roberto and Guillermina are world renowned Tango dancers, performers and
teachers. On Tuesday, July 13th, they will be part of Mid-summer night's
tango Tuesday at Lincoln Center.
On Wednesday, July 14th, they will be giving two workshops:
(1) Intermediate Tango from 7pm to 8:30 and
(2) Advanced Tango Couples Only from 8:30 to 10 PM.
Please note; there will be no rotating of partners in the advanced workshop,
you must register with a partner.
All workshops will be held at Stepping Out Dance Studios
1780
Broadway, 4th floor
(212) 245-5200
Call for more information and registration.
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:51:42 EDT
From: Claude Dumont <CLDUMONT @AOL.COM>
Subject: Food in Argentine
US critics about Argentin s food is like
a hospital making joke on the charity
What about Mc Donald?Coca Cola...
y que se yo.
Claude, desde BsAs
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:04:10 -0400
From: Mata Stevenson <matas @ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Santa Fe Retreat
From: Kay Mullins <kayconnect @SEMC-ONLINE.COM>
> For>example, I was hoping to hear from someone who attended the tango week
> in>Santa Fe. How was it?
>
> In response to Melinda's request, here's my take on the Santa Fe Retreat:
>
> I really enjoyed the week. Luren and Michael did an exceptional
job
> organizing and it was a first class event. Their high energy was
> contagious...
I agree completely with Kay's review of the week. Michael and Luren were as
dedicated as anyone could possibly be to making the week unforgettable (and
I hope they're still enjoying a break!). Just to add to the terrific teacher
list--the beginners had Andrew Moe and his partner, Sarah, local teachers
who were very good in teaching the basics, conscious of what new dancers
need to know and what they can handle.
The two rooms for the milongas offered struggling beginners a place to test
their skills without fearing that they would annoy the more advanced
dancers--the beginners tended to gravitate toward the smaller room. On the
first night, when that room was unavailable, the large room was extended out
onto a patio and we danced under the stars. Michael indicates that next
year, there'll be patio dancing every night! Also, that there will be fewer
people.
One remarkable thing which M&L handled with great efficiency was swapping
rooms by size of class. If a teacher in a smaller room was gathering a
larger class than a teacher in a nearby room, they would switch rooms with
their entourage. This sounds as though it would be chaotic, but it wasn't.
If it weren't so far away for a New Yorker, and if there were a direct
flight, we'd surely return next year. Maybe we will anyway!
Regards,
Mata
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:34:43 +0200
From: Jean-Pierre Jacquet <jpjfilms @CYBERCABLE.FR>
Subject: When tango rhymes with dough or dineiro
or="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
The monetary connotations underlying this CITA debate are a hoot. Of
course one can pride itself in having ingurgitated an admittedly
exceptional Tango package at large expense. But I can't help thinking of
the guffawing having taken place behind a few of the frisky gung-ho
tourists cum practitioners'backs, on the part of some of the prima donna
instructors. Sounds a bit like all these tourists who spent 5$ for a cup
of
coffee at a chichi parisian cafi, or eat a bowl of onion soup at 4 in
the afternoon in the same cafi, because they think it's anthentic and
makes them feel part of the "couleur locale".
I am a sucker just like any other one when it comes to attending
workshops given by Argentine world travelling experts: they are a
necessary and many times rewarding experience. But my broken spanish has
allowed me to pick up a number of disparaging remarks where the
instructors made no bones about what they truly felt regarding their
students.
And yes, Sally Potter "treated" herself to the best instruction from the
proponents of the self-inflated New Tango, the best that money can buy,
to get back to the issue: she is still an awful tango dancer, and made a
cuckold by the protagonists of her dopey story to boot.
Somewhere in this mercenary approach to the dance and its teaching,
there are a lot of cuckolds.
Jean-Pierre Jacquet
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:46:05 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: De-Programming
Some people leave the tango (temporarily) due to foot or leg injuries. Can't
dance with so much pain, you know. Seriously, I guess that people could give
up tango because they find something more important to them. I've seen
people leave tango because they become involved in relationships with
non-dancers. It seems like your friend needn't worry about tango interfering
with his life. Right now he probably does not have anything else to take up
his time. Just stopping tango is no guarantee that he'll find happiness in a
love relationship!
Actually, people leaving tango after a few lessons or dance experiences is
really not that unusual. The real problem seems to be retaining tango
dancers. Why people start and stop dancing tango is a good question. I would
like to know the answer, but I'm afraid the people to ask are not in this
list ;-)
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Virginia Gift <vgift @IBM.NET>
Subject: De-Programming
> Dear List,
> I have a male friend, a good dancer with two years' experience, who
> wants to stop taking lessons and spend much less (or no) time dancing
tango
> because he feels it has become dangerously important in his life;
snip
> Have you heard of other dancers, temporarily or permanently, giving up
> tango--for this or other reasons?
> I'd appreciate your comments.
> Best regards,
> Virginia
>
>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:03:23 -0700
From: Fernando Bruna <link4 @CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: New tango
Hi everyone, I have been listening you for one year and dancing for one
year and a half. This my first intervention. Yesterday night I have an
interesting debate about New Tango (or Young Tango) and I would like to
share it with you.
Hector and Natalia are in Toronto before going to Europe. After a
workshop I was enjoying the summer in a nice patio with them and my
loved and respected teachers, Barry and Lidia. I was telling them about
the discussion in Tango-L about New Tango. In Bs As e-mail is not so
spread as in other places so the majority of profesional dancers do not
have idea about the existence of Tango-L. First I emphasized some of the
critics to new tango that have been appearing in the list.
Hector comments that the problem of tango dance is that it is not clear
what are the main elements to be called tango. In music it is different.
Piazolla plays tango because he follows the metric of tango though
emphasizing melody more that has been ever done. When he go further that
metric he composed a piece with tango inspiration but he does not call
it tango. With the dance there are not only one element and historical
documentation is limited so we just do not know what can be called tango
and what not.
I said that the definition of the dance has to be in terms of several
elements. For instance, for me it what a very interesting contribution
the comment of a list member about the lonelyness of emigrant, and the
need of hug and intimacy leading to close the embrace of european
dances. Once new tango (NT) opens the embrace again it is going in a
different direction.
A different approach to the topic is amount of fancyness and complex
elaborations in new tango. Barry says that tango is a social and popular
dance and new developments are tested in the milongas. If they have
acceptance they are valid and if not they are not. But the problem of NT
is that you can not do a lot of what they do in a crowded milonga.
A third point is the relation between partners. In NT the woman tend to
be a marionette. Woman can do sacadas but the sacadas are leaded by the
man, who does whatever he wants with his partner. Hector makes the point
that Dinzel, on the contrary has a very different approach. He saw
Dinzel telling a woman: "move, and I follow you". Dinzel asks woman who
knows already the "entrega" (giving themsheves) to follow their
musicality. Dinzel ask the woman to be tough in the dance and to have
initiative and even to do sacadas on her own. Lidia says that for Dinzel
woman suggests a lot of times movements to the "leader".
This leads me to a conclusion. I respect very much new developments.
Tango has to evolve as any other (popular or not) form of art. And any
new artistic approach at the beginning is not inmediately accepted. I
encourage any research in new forms of expression and new explorations
and fusions. This is a natural process. Art is a expresion of the
evolution of cultures. Even for me the requirement of acceptance in a
milonga is necessary to be called popular dance but not to be called
artistic expression. I respect very much if there are some people doing
non-popular art and popular culture takes slowly some elements of it and
does not take other ones.
But is NT a expresion of the current cultural and social trends?. I am
not sure. Maybe the opening of the embrace is a travel in a different
direction from the tradition, but it can be called more XXI century
tango in the sense that the need for intimacy in the Bs As of today is
not so big, but tango was needing to break of some rules in a search of
freedom and a exploration of possibilities of movement that were not
allowed in the close embrace. But clearly the use of the woman in NT as
a marionette does not seems to go with the times.
My conclusion is that we are just attending to a new expansion of tango
possibilities and the child is still unmature. Probably in NT the woman
is a marionette because five guys are searching their own possibilities
of movement. In 20 many men and woman who has been studying with them
will probably take a more equalitarian approach, emphasizing the dialog
between partners. In 20 years many of their contributions will be
incorporated in the milongas and many other will be only part of the
repertory of stage or private dance, which is great too. And I am sure
that the close embrace is not going to be lost because it is a
fundamental part of the definition of tango, but we will be able to use
it more as a choice, accordingly to our times.
I would love to learn with this five guys and with Dinzel and with
teachers of different styles and in 20 year be able to do my own fusion
to explore my creative possibilities, my vision of tango and my other
influences in live and dance. And to be open to learn from my female
partners. I will use some of this possibilities in the milonga and some
other not, the same that anyone uses different patterns of behavior in
social circunstances, in a performance or in a private circle. But even
if I do not use them, they will be feeding my other movements. See you
there!
Fernando
fernandobruna @hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:03:48 -0000
From: Jim Wrathall <jim @PLUNK.COM>
Subject: Early forms of Tango...
Dear List,
I don't know if the topic has been discussed, but I am interested in
knowing more about early Tango.
Here's what I'm trying to determine: I have read in many places that the
Tango, as it was first danced in B.A. and then in Paris, was very shocking
to 'refined' sensibilities. I have also read that the Tango was refined and
made more acceptable and that it was this dance that became the Tango that
we have today. So what it all boils down to is this... has sensibility
changed so that the dance that was once seen as shocking is now seen as
just social? Or, more to the point, are we missing out on a deliciously
sleazy
dance?
On this page:
http://www2.csn.net/dtango7/Tango_Tango.html
...there is a section that reads:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Petroleo and the Modern Salon Tango
In the 1940s there was a great innovative dancer named Carlos Estevez whose
nickname was Petroleo ( from petrol or oil meaning slick, slippery, fast,
etc.) His ideas were at first received as strange to the tango dancers of
the preceding epoch, that of Canyengue (Kahn-jen-gay) tango. The Canyengue
style had a macho swagger, was more bent-kneed, gaze down, with the frame
more introverted. The man's left hand was lower or even in his pocket (her
right hand the same or on her hip). The dance was characterized by the
footwork which included lots of interlocking legs and complex syncopation.
Petroleo's ideas included a change in the frame to a more erect, outward
looking, and elegant stance. His style followed closely the development of
the smooth dance music characterized by the orchestras of Carlos DiSarli and
Osvaldo Pugliese. He replaced the strong hold of the canyengue with the
lighter lead and follow of modern salon. The big ganchos (hooks) were
refined into the fine and subtle displacements of the feet. Smooth walking
became the measure of good dancing. Figures with turns in combination with
displacement became popular. Today almost all of the older dancers with whom
I have spoken can show off popular Petroleo steps that influenced them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Is Canyengue the dance that was so shocking? Are there any cinematic
records
of the very early Tango? I do know that portable cinema cameras were
developed in Paris at the time the tango was being born in B.A. And by the
time Tango was introduced to Paris, surely someone would have filmed an
early tanguero in action.
Additionally, I came across an interview on the web which does mention
different, early, interesting Tangos.
http://www.plunk.com/dot/caceres.htm
Regards,
-Jim
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:55:23 +0200
From: "Di Pietro Fabio VSD(EXC)" <Fabio.DiPietro @VSD.BL.CH>
Subject: Tagno in Andalusia (Spain)?
Hello Tangeros
Is there any possibility to dance Tango in Andalusia? Sevilla or Cadiz?
Thanks for answers
Fabio
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:08:23 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <bpdunn @IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Kinesis, Massachusetts, and Avignon
On Thursday, July 08, 1999 Jim Murphy wrote:
>>>
Has anyone on the list seen a dance troupe called "Tango Kinesis"?...
They are appearing in Northampton, MA in November and the the ad says, "This
Buenos Aires-based dance troupe directed by choreographer Ana Marie
Stekelman, has created an international sensation with choreography that
fuses the classic tango with contemporary dance."....
<<<
I first saw Tangokinesis in July of 1997 in Boulder, Colorado at the
Colorado Dance Festival. Their show was the first tango stage production
that I'd ever seen, and it was riveting, compelling, and changed the lives
of several people who saw it, mine included. I'd just started tango
seriously a month or so before. Several of the current mainstays of our
local Tango community found themselves inexplicably "drawn" to that show
before they'd had any exposure to tango, and found themselves happily
obsessed from that point on.
Since then, I've seen both Tango x 2 and Forever Tango multiple times, taken
dozens of privates with visiting Argentines, and got more reference points
for tango performance than I could enumerate here. I was reminded of
Tangokinesis and Ana Maria Stekelman upon seeing the Carlos Saura movie
"Tango" this past April, when I noticed her name in the choreography credits
for the movie. For those who have seen it, her work is in evidence in the
scene of the males dancing together, and in the scenes that bring to mind
the repression under the military dictatorship ("...the torturers played
tango loud, to cover up the screams...").
On my second trip to Buenos Aires this spring, I attended a performing arts
festival which included Ana Maria Stekelman's troupe as one of the featured
performances. During one couple's performance, I was so captivated by their
energy, passion, grace and connection that, with tears running down my face,
I almost felt I had to look away because I didn't think my heart could stand
to take in any more. I was watching the end of it through my parted
fingers.
I had an opportunity to talk with Ana Maria after the performance. She
mentioned that not only is she bringing Tangokinesis to the United States
(including a return trip to Colorado) this summer, but that her troupe is
part of a festival in Avignon this summer as well, where they would stage an
expanded version of the show I'd just seen. This may be the same festival
referred to in recently posted Tango-List messages. If you have the
opportunity, I'd strongly urge you to see them.
Abrazos,
Brian Dunn
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:10:03 +0200
From: "Christoph J.W. Schmees" <cjws @GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: De-Programming
Well, yes, Virginia,
you opened the one most important question not merely about
tango, but about life itself. This topic could fill a book. -
O.k., I'll keep it very short for now.
What does it mean: "Dangerously important"? Is it "addicted"? If
so, it is like any other addiction (alcoholic, workoholic,
IRC-oholic and so forth). You do something *instead* of the real
thing you need, but the substitute doesn't really feed you. So
you keep on desiring it and need more and more and still don't
become content. If this is the case with your male friend and
tango: Yes, he'd better stop that thing and look what he's really
after. Concentrate his energy on real nutrition, not
substitution.
Another aspect: A nasty person (as far as I recall it was a
woman) from tango once said to me that in the "tango scene" there
were 80% people unable for a relationship. Assuming she was
right: What's wrong in getting at least a certain sort of
intimacy, touch and so forth while dancing tango? If you know
what you are doing this it completely o.k. with me and it can
help you over bad times. (This addiction is by far less hazardous
for your health than smoking or alcohol :-)
Guess you dance tango as well: What is it for you then?
-- cu, Christoph
Von: Virginia Gift <vgift @ibm.net>
An: TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu <TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu>
Datum: Montag, 5. Juli 1999 10:58
Betreff: De-Programming
>Dear List,
> I have a male friend, a good dancer with two years'
experience, who
>wants to stop taking lessons and spend much less (or no) time
dancing tango
>because he feels it has become dangerously important in his
life; he is
>afraid it will prevent him from seeking a serious relationship
he feels he
>wants/needs.
> He feels tango substitutes for the intimacy of a
relationship.
> Have you heard of other dancers, temporarily or permanently,
giving up
>tango--for this or other reasons?
> I'd appreciate your comments.
>Best regards,
>Virginia
>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:37:24 PDT
From: Lily Ader <lilyader @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango At Adventura
Tango Under the Stars Update
Queridos Tangueros,
As we have promised we have been busy trying to find different ways
in which to promote the Tango in Miami. Several new things have developed .
First "Tango under the Stars" will also be operating under the name of Tango
Miami, which we feel lends it self well to our purpose. We alsohave a n ew
e-mail site for any questions, updated or comments you may have. That
address is Tango Miami @hotmail.com or you can call and leave a
message @ 305-864-5647.
Next, we have been invited to have our gatherings at Adventura
Mall for a few afternoons in July. Place and times are as follows:
July 3rd Aventura Mall Center Court 2:00 to 5:00p.m.
July 11th Aventura Mall Bloomingdale Fountain 2:00 to 5:00p.m.
July 25th Aventura Mall Center Court 2:00 to 5:00p.m.
That is one Saturday and two Sundays in July. Please mark your
calendar. We all know the number of people in a South Florida Mall on
Saturdays so Ithink this is a wonderful opportunity to show to others that
we have an ArgentineTango community in South Florida. We ask for your
participation in a few afternoons dancing in an effort to promote Tango in
Miami. We hope to see you all there students and professionals alike. We
will bring the music and water. Hope to see you on the dance floor of the
Adventura Mall Milonga.
Finally, we are in the process of putting together a Tango dinner
cruise on the Sea Escape. We have been able to secure (thanks to some help
from our friends)a $30.00 fare which is a group rate. We need at least 15
people in order to qualify as such. If you have any interest contact us at
the above address. The fare includes a 5-6 hour (details to follow at a
later date) cruise, buffet style dinner, which is all can eat, a show and
all state and port taxes. The bar is open. The targeted date for this cruise
in the first or second Saturday in the month of August.
Dont forget to bring your flyers with you to Adventura and keep
yourselves updated as thing may change at any time. You already know where
to contact us.
Thanks again for your support
Lily Ader
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:32:54 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: No Subject
Re New Tango, Chicho, etc.,
Pardon the late response but I wanted to think about the subject a little bit
before jumping into the fire.
IMO what distinguishes one dance from another is its form, and the way one
moves through the steps, not the actual steps. Tango movements have evolved
over the past century into a dance we immediately recognize - one of the most
characteristic and unique of the movements, among many, being the fact that
the dance is walked. One could dance tango steps in a swing style but the
result would be swing, not tango. My point being that although it is healthy
to challenge the way something is done, one should be careful to preserve
those elements that give the dance its beauty while expanding the vocabulary.
Remember there are really only four or five steps combined with a few turns
in tango. Everything else is just a recombination of those basic elements.
Either you execute them correctly or you don't. But what some people consider
good or bad form, others call style. Just be sure you can distinguish which
is which. Performance tango has unfortunately influenced salon tango so much
that everyone wants to perform before they have mastered the basic movements.
What I don't like about Chicho's dancing is about something else. When Chicho
was here in NYC I thought his dancing was pretty good the first night I saw
him, when he actually performed, but by the end of the week I wasn't so
impressed. The following nights that I saw him at other milongas ( I dance
six nights a week) he continued to dance as if he were performing,
whirligiging in and out of other dancers with much acrobatics and showy
steps. I wondered if he knew how to slow down or pause once in a while. It
was very distracting to be on the floor with him, and rude on his part to
ignore that there was a floor full of people.
But even more than that - I'm just not very impressed with a dancer that
constantly watches his and his partners feet. I don't care how fancy the
steps are.
Briefly on another subject, I was in Santa Fe and my experience was very
positive. Yes, the classes were crowded but by the end of the week I realized
that I had learned a great deal and had a lot of material to think about and
practice. All of the faculty was excellent and I met a lot of great people.
As usual, many people took classes that they weren't really ready for which
slowed down the classes a bit but I think everyone left a better dancer than
when they came. Yes it seemed a little expensive, but its not every week that
you can have fifteen classes and six milongas as well as six buffet dinners
with some of the best tango dancers in the world in a period of five and a
half days.
Thanks for lending your ears. Charles Roques
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:35:41 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Classes with Marta Anton and Luis Grondona
If you are coming to Buenos Aires in July, August or September . . .
Marta Anton and Luis Grondona recently returned to Buenos Aires after a
three-month tour in Europe teaching Canyengue and Salon styles.
Their Canyengue classes are held on Saturdays from 7:00-9:00 p.m. in La
Galeria del Tango, on Boedo near Independencia. Their tango salon classes
are on Mondays, also in La Galeria. $10/per person.
I thoroughly enjoyed my first lesson in Canyengue style. They are excellent
instructors. They both gave me individual attention and danced with me.
Hope to see you in class.
Janis Kenyon
End of TANGO-L Digest - 10 Jul 1999 to 11 Jul 1999
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