The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 7 Jul 1999
to 8 Jul 1999
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 03:00:04 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 7 Jul 1999 to 8 Jul 1999
There are 9 messages totalling 541 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Friends and enemies #2
2. a bad news and a good news from Montreal
3. Nestor Vaz
4. Chicago Workshops with Marcela Duran and Carlos Gavito
5. Omar Vega in Boston
6. Pablito Pugliese- to Johannes
7. LAFAYETTE, CA, USA, -- MILONGA & WORKSHOP
8. Melancholic embrace or exciting gymnastics? Both?
9. De-Programming
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 03:51:36 +0000
From: Keith Elshaw <elshaw @INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Re: Friends and enemies #2
Albertoman;
I understand.
Shortly after I joined, I realized that less is more on Tango-L.
I also think that the things that seemingly divide us might just be the
things that would unite us, were we to sit in the same room and discuss
them. I thought specifically about you in this context. In your case,
that comes from a respect for your knowledge. I give others the benefit
of the doubt also - and appreciate getting it.
I wonder what would happen if the actives and circumspects on Tango-L
flew in to some mid-point like Chicago and eye-balled each other for a
weekend. And chatted. And danced.
Surely some would have their hints confirmed and would retire to their
lair.
But the majority might have a couple of days to remember.
We all look at our local community and rue the lack of communication.
In this forum, the continent is also our community (speaking about the
Norteamericanos who could convene conveniently). What the heck would
happen when 20 or 30 of us got to know each other face-to-face as we
danced with our partners, shot the breeze and partyed?
I've met a few people personally on this list who I now count among my
valued friends. I've corresponded with a few people who I think are
exceptional and would love to meet.
I'm not suggesting a big deal ... one cemented relationship is worth so
much.
Alberto, Daniel, Victor, David, Tom, Bob, Jim & Ronnie, Karen, Pat,
Matej, Manuel, Yoshimura, Richard, Susana, Robinne, Phil, Frank, Larry,
Jack, Mark -
Oh Lord, Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood because this list can't go on
forever -
List members who care; List initiator who seamlessly facilitates this
thing happening (thank you!);
I feel like asking, what do ya think?
Having made the suggestion, of course I would now like to slink away and
NOT take a pro-active role in making something happen. Perhaps no one
has to take a "leadership" role. It could be just informal ad-hoc magic,
no?
I'm also just thinking that this would be a wonderful event to host.
Quick - how many of you would like to come to Toronto?
Eyuh. A little out of the way.
That's why I'm thinking mid-continent. 'Course Florida isn't too far
from the coast and the west, is it? And there are a couple of really
sharp people there ...
To me, it doesn't matter if another 2 years goes by before we do it ...
it seems like a natural.
This forum is terrific, but we all have to hang-back. It's akin to being
on the air. It would be nice to sit around with all the gang away from
the station, so-to-speak.
It's 3:29 AM, so I should sign-off.
Best to you, Alberto - and all,
Keith Elshaw
ToTango!
http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw/ttindex.html
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:58:24 -0400
From: Pascale Guilloux <guilloux.rivest @SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: a bad news and a good news from Montreal
Dear list,
the tango magazine "De puro guapo" just released its last publication,
after 10 issues Robert Blais decided to finaly give up. This is a bad
news, the articles we could read in it were very interesting and of
hight quality.
The good news is that a new web site just open, you can find in the
calendar that use to be published in "de puro guapo" , plus, it list all
the milongas and events to come in Montreal and the area. Anyone who
want to register a milonga or an event, (everywhere in the world,) is
very welcome to do it.
http://www.cumparsita.com/
It will be soon accesible in english.
Pascale Guilloux
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:35:22 +0200
From: Raimund Schlie <kbb @PODEWIL.DE>
Subject: Nestor Vaz
hol=E1 listeros!
within the festival "Tangosommer 99" in Podewil/Berlin we present the
Nestor Vaz Trio with singer august 5. They will be on tour in Germany
until august 30. At the "Cumbre Mudial del Tango" 1996 I saw this
ensemble and was impressed how they mastered the history of tango
including Piazzolla, always being tight to the comp=E1s and adressing bot=
h
the dancers and listeners. They are considered as one of the best
orquestas from Uruguay. The cast:
Nestor Vaz bandone=F3n
Julio Gobelli guitar
Cono Castro double bass
Ledo Urrutia voice
As a group of such reputation they are not expensive. I=B4ll give further
information.
Ciao
Raimund
--
*************************************************************
Raimund Schlie Podewil - KBB
Klosterstrasse 68-70 10179 Berlin
tel (work): +49+30-247 49 750
fax (work): +49+30-247 49 700
tel (home): +49+30-85 60 34 15
email: kbb @podewil.de
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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:07:08 -0500
From: Bob Dronski <bob @TANGONADAMAS.COM>
Subject: Chicago Workshops with Marcela Duran and Carlos Gavito
Hi all!
Marcela Duran of Forever Tango will be offering a *women's only*
workshop on Wednesday, July 14 from 8:00 - 10:00 pm at
Tango...nada mas in Chicago. Cost is $30/person.
She will also join Carlos Gavito to do a general workshop on
Friday, July 16 from 8:00 - 10:00 pm. Cost for this workshop is
$40/person.
This is the first time Marcela has returned to Chicago since Forever
Tango played here in 1996. Take advantage of this rare chance to
study with either or both of these amazing dancers!
Private classes will also be available with either or both of them.
Contact me for details.
Everything will be held at
Tango...nada mas
6137 N Northwest Hwy
Chicago, IL 60631
(773) 792-2099
Check the website for more details or to register online.
bob
**************************************************
Check us out at
http://www.tangonadamas.com
"Tango...the dance of moral death"
anon
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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:49:46 EDT
From: Verena Faigle <VERENAV @AOL.COM>
Subject: Omar Vega in Boston
Dear list,
specified information about Omar Vegas workshops in Boston (24th/25th of
July) are available in the internet:
www.havetodance.com/tango/teachers.html#workshops
best Verena
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:54:40 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Pablito Pugliese- to Johannes
I can tell you only a little bit. His father is considered one of the best
master instructors in B.A. The son dances beautifully with very precise
footwork. Elegant salon style would be a good descriptor for this style of
tango. Add to that the energy and power of a young male dancer and he is
quite stunning to watch.
He is moving to NYC to study at the University there and to teach tango.
That was announced on the list a few weeks ago.
>From: Schulz Johannes <j.schulz @STR.DAIMLER-BENZ.COM>
>Hola list!
>Who can tell me about Pablito Pulgiese. What is the dancing style,
>which he prefer to dance and what kind of influence
>is involved. Of course, the teacher of Pablito is his father, but are
>there another dancers beside Pablito?
>I not interested in the color of his shoes or what kind of clothes he
>wear!
>
>Ciao
>
>Johannes
>
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:54:49 EDT
From: Jeanne Hill <GeneJeanne @AOL.COM>
Subject: LAFAYETTE, CA, USA, -- MILONGA & WORKSHOP
Dear Tango Friends,
La Milonga de Jeanne is cancelled for July (July 10). Our next event is
August 14, 8:30-9:30 pm class and 9:30 pm to 1:00 am dance party at the
Lafayette Veteran's Bldg., 3491 Mt. Diablo Blvd., Lafayette, CA, (925)
283-0191. Patricia and Nestor Ray will be the instructors at this event.
They are back for a visit to the Bay Area. Nestor is a well-known
MILONGUERO, who in 1996 taught at Stanford. They will teach the MILONGUERO
(close embrace) style Tango.
In addition, Patricia and Nestor Ray will give a workshop on Friday, August
13, 8-10:30 pm at the Lafayette Dance Center, 3369 Mt. Diablo Blvd.,
Lafayette, CA. Nestor Ray has been named "The Maestro to the Stars" by the
Argentine news media, for his teaching activities in Hollywood instructing
the tango to famous movie personalities in the USA. They will teach
MILONGUERO (close embrace) style, VALS, and Milonga with "trespie". Room is
limited, therefore, please call for reservations. Call Jeanne at (925)
283-0191 for more details and to make reservations.
See you in August, Jeanne and Gene
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:05:27 PDT
From: Pepito La Chofa <badchioce @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Melancholic embrace or exciting gymnastics? Both?
Warning! This posting will not touch upon the following points: steps,
movement, dynamics, posture, figures, music, or the use of space.
It will deal with the food and the last names of portenos, and it will also
be a bit long and abstract, (so you may want to skip it altogether).
On the other hand, it will be directly related to tango and dancing styles,
and it could be interesting for people who are not acquainted with the
history of Buenos Aires.
Hamza Zeytinoglu wrote:
>Ah Pepito!
>
>It's too late to frown now, Fabian and Gustavo have already marked the
> >Tango history in the nineties. All around the world they have promoted
> >Tango and done that in their own way. For some like me, the
>understanding of the dynamics of each step and to be able to >communicate
>what's going on to others through a bravely systematized >approach is a
>reason to dance for.
Yes, just when you thought everything had been said about New Tango already,
here comes Pepito with one of his nasty postings.
But reactions like the above one from some members of the list have got me
thinking.
If you have been to Buenos Aires, you may have noticed that it can be
difficult to find restaurants that serve anything other than a kind of
standard menu consisting of:
pastas,
steak,
milanesas,
french fries,
pollo a la gallega,
empanadas (if you are lucky),
pizza,
ensalada rusa and ensalada mixta,
one or two other dishes that change from one restaurant to the other.
Oh yeah! -and for dessert, "flan" or fruit salad.
Until the culinary boom of the past decade it was nearly *impossible* to
find anything other than this menu in B.Aires. Only fifteen years ago,
portenos had never heard of Chinese or Mexican food, for example. They had
been eating grilled meat, pastas and pizzas for over three-quarters of a
century.
Even though they come from very specific cultural origins -pollo a la
gallega from Spain, pastas from Italy, empanadas and grilled meat are
indigenous/criollo- these dishes are served at every (not specialized)
restaurant. In fact, until recently, many portenos were not aware that these
dishes were other than Argentine.
The name "milanesa" (a thin steak done in breadcrumbs) is a good example.
Most portenos do not associate this name with Milan, the Italian city it
originally referred to. For them, milanesa is just another Castilian word
meaning what the Spanish would call an "empanada". To get a feeling of what
I mean, think of the American word "hamburger", which originally referred to
a city in Germany. Nowadays you can order a "Hawaiian hamburger" and nobody
will laugh. The same way that in Buenos Aires you can order a "milanesa
napolitana" (topped with tomato slices and melted cheese), since the word
milanesa does not refer to Milan, nor does the word "napolitana" refer to
Naples anymore.
Interestingly, something similar happens when it comes to last names. When I
was growing up in Argentina, it never occurred to me that the kids from the
neighborhood, or at school, had different cultural backgrounds. I never
thought of them as being Arab, or Jewish, or Spanish or German, nor did I
think of myself as being Italian (in fact didn't learn I had Italian
ancestors -La Cioffa- until I was over thirty). That's because, to a certain
extent, we *didn't* have different cultural backgrounds. Verbitsky,
Nardelli, Mutt, Hirtz, Peralta and Halil, we all ate the same kind of food,
we listened to the same kind of music and our parent's drank mate together
on the sidewalk.
It sounds idyllic, and to point it was. Like tango.
Discrimination in Argentina has always existed, that's a fact too; be it
social, racial, religious, political or sexual. But it has only been the
flipside of a process of integration like no other in the world. Unlike in
the United States or Australia, where historically there has always been a
dominant ethnic group (Anglo) who enjoyed the advantages of power, in
Argentina this power was less determined by ethnicity. When the Italians,
the Polish, the Lebanese, the Russians, the Spaniards, etc. came to Buenos
Aires at the turn of the century, they pretty much "took over" the city and
did not find one ethnic group ruling over the rest. There has been
discrimination, but it has been expressed -paradoxically- within a
relatively more "equal" context than what we are accustomed to in the North.
This is the reason why you can call a porteno respectively "Tano" (Italian),
"Turco", "Gallego" (Spanish), "Ruso" (Jewish) and even "Negro", with no harm
done. Because unlike in America -not to mention Europe- it hasn`t been one
single powerful ethnic group doing the name-calling.(1)
Yeah, yeah, Pepito, what's your point!?
OK, the point is integration.
The way I see it, there is a choice between wanting to integrate or wanting
to tolerate.
You can tolerate differences and let people express themselves to their own
particular liking. Or, you can integrate people and negotiate the extent to
which each person will sacrifice their individual expressive needs for the
sake of a collective way of expression.
(Please notice that I say "negotiate" and "collective" -and not "impose" and
"one particular group".)
What happened in Buenos Aires, although not perfect, is a wonderful example
of integration, where people sought to share and communicate across cultural
barriers, with such desire that they even managed to create a unique form of
music and dance.(2)
However, I think tolerance reflects, better than integration, the spirit of
our times. Many progressive people nowadays prefer to tolerate, rather than
integrate. Perhaps because over the last half a century we have increasingly
lost our innocence about the terrible hurt caused by colonialism (racist)
and imperialism (communist or capitalist) under the guise of "integration";
and the wounds are still too fresh to think about the real meaning of this
word.
That's a pity, because tango *was born* thanks to integration.
Therefore, faced with the question of how to deal with tango expressions
departing from tradition, I ask myself: What's it gonna be Pepito?
So now we have New Tango. So now you can focus on kinetics and fail to
actively cultivate the sublimated (old-timer's) mating ritual. So you can
dance open, as open as your arms can reach, and not give each other a hug at
all. You can gender-bend tango, and exchange roles even during a single
dance. You can dance to Piazzolla, or chanson-francaise, or any music you
would like. Or no music at all. You can speak of tango science. You can wear
a Zoot Suit or shorts, whatever your heart desires.
Accepting to co-exist with this New Tango would be a sign of tolerance.
Many old milongueros don't have it in them to be tolerant. So they will kick
people out of the floor, as Salas knows from experience.
I know how tolerance works, I'm skeptical about it. But then again, I live
in the 90's, as they say.
So I will tolerate. I will stop trying to convince my fellow dancers that we
should *surrender* to tango, and that the old guys and gals know better,
that we should look for a *common* language.
>From now on, I just won't mix with some dancers. I'll say "Hi" politely and
tolerate them. I'll label myself "milonguero". I'll let others alone with
their dance, even if it hurts my eyes to look at them dancing. I won't even
look at them any more. I'll try to go where *my* people are and not show up
at *their* places (like it's already happening in Buenos Aires).
'Cause we are just... different.
(not!)
Pepito La Chofa
La vida es una milonga... o un gimnasio, o un laboratorio, u otra cosa, de
acuerdo al deseo de cada individuo.
PS. I'd love to get some replies. But let me save some listeros the trouble:
don't reply saying that it is all tango and that there are no categories
-that would be a waste of time.
It would be like saying to an Eskimo "Stop calling it all those different
names, it's all just snow! Just the one thing! Why do you have to make it so
complicated?" They would probably answer what I'll answer you: "You must be
blind, I see and *feel* the differences".
(1) This applies to the context of the city of Buenos Aires. Discrimination
against indigenous peoples has, however, been blatant. And in this, all non
indigenous "joined forces". Significantly, tango does not represent the
culture of the indigenous inhabitants of Argentina, "folkore" does.
(2) In its moods and traits, tango reflects, in turn, the pain and suffering
of the integration process itself, which is not a bed of roses.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:37:44 +1200
From: faera <faera @XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: De-Programming
Original Message -----
From: Virginia Gift <vgift @IBM.NET>
To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 9:29 PM
Subject: De-Programming
> Dear List,
> I have a male friend, a good dancer with two years' experience, who
> wants to stop taking lessons and spend much less (or no) time dancing tango
> because he feels it has become dangerously important in his life; he is
> afraid it will prevent him from seeking a serious relationship he feels he
> wants/needs.
> He feels tango substitutes for the intimacy of a relationship.
> Have you heard of other dancers, temporarily or permanently, giving up
> tango--for this or other reasons?
> I'd appreciate your comments.
> Best regards,
> Virginia
Dear Virginia & List
I experience tango as very challenging in terms of intimacy in the embrace and in terms of the quality of dancing with favourite
dance partners.
For two years of my Tango dancing I did not have a life/romantic partner -- and although I experienced intimacy in the dance
time, I did not look for intimacy with any of my dance partners. This was largely because I so valued the dance time I didn't
want to mess it up with romanticallness
Now for the last year, I have developed a relationship with a life partner who also dances TANGO - I was a very much more
experienced dancer -- and he more of a beginner. We did not meet at a dance -- or he might never have approached me.
Let me say that what I thought was 'intimacy' from the TANGO dance times did not approach what happened when I danced TANGO with
my lover/ partner.
It is perhaps too much to expect that lovers will dance well together -- I have seen so often where they do not -- Some how we
have managed -- he and I dance often with other partners -- It is so often very special when we find a particular dance melody
playing -- and look to one another across the room, agree to dance with a look and then meet on the dance floor in the dance.
TANGO intimacy does not preclude relationship/lover intimacy. I have both - the latter with one man exclusively, the former with
several favourite dance partners. I suppose the former does give you perspective on what real relationship intimacy is about --
and you don't have to run off with the first man/or woman [as in your friend's case I presume] you get THAT close too -- I think
you learn to be that much more discriminating --
My sympathy to your friend -- When dancing is that important to you - finding a partner you can dance with is also
important --This I know - I was married to a non-dancer for 12 years and it nearly killed me having to keep still -- there is such
a joy in movement --and TANGO multiplies that JOY by two -- it makes it so difficult to ever dance again without making contact
with a partner --
In terms of the possibility of having a lover/partner who is not your best dancing partner -- I think that this may be a reality
for many -- [I didn't expect anything but this -- and got far more -- as I said I think this is an exception -- and at times I
worry that it sets up a rather false or unrealistic expectation within our dance community. ]
possible reasons why it works:
1. I made it clear early on that we wouldn't get on if my dancing with
other men was going to be a problem
2. Though I do dance with others and clearly enjoy it -- I always make
an effort to find MY man after each dance when we are both free -
and I make it very visible to him and to others that he and I are very
together.
3. After dancing with others, I may come back to him with ideas and
suggestions which improve his dance - so saying -- I have never
considered it was my job to TEACH him to dance TANGO - but
to dance with him as he was able and provide feedback from time to
time as generously and respectfully as I could
So saying -- we don't discuss TANGO at all well -- since we both feel so
strongly and so personally about it -- it's best we keep a respectful distance
And yes one can have some very wonderful dances with dance partners
you will never see again, or that you will see over and over and never
develop any kind of an off-dance floor relationship.........
funny that....
All the best to you and your friend;
Nancy
End of TANGO-L Digest - 7 Jul 1999 to 8 Jul 1999
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