The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 18 Dec 1999
to 19 Dec 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 03:00:01 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 18 Dec 1999 to 19 Dec 1999 (#1999-95)
There are 11 messages totalling 484 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Fwd: Learning .....Hints to Learning Tango Dancers
2. what leverl of dancer are you
3. Learning from videos (and tuition)
4. Copes and passion
5. learning tango from videos - Second Try
6. Tradation Honor and Respect (2)
7. Dance Cruises
8. Learning Tango
9. Need for Choreographed steps for the beginner
10. "Tango Argentino"
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:27:44 EST
From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Learning .....Hints to Learning Tango Dancers
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Second Try!
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Return-path: AHGberg @aol.com
From: AHGberg @aol.com
Full-name: A HGberg
Message-ID: <0.d511f0da.258cdb6f @aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:43:27 EST
Subject: Learning .....Hints to Learning Tango Dancers
To: TangoL @mitvma.mit.edu
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Hi Guys:
It seems to me that it is a not so self evident truth that a "beginning
dancer" would be ill advised to attempt to learn how to dance Argentine Tango
by merely watching video tapes, no matter who the presenters are nor how good
they are at presenting. There are however many excellent tutorial videos
from which you can get some marvelous insight during your learning stages in
this fascinating art form.
There are a few things that the learning dancer must first ascertain in
order that he/she can succed at the seemingly endless mission of becoming a
"good" Argentine Tango dancer. Determine how you learn! Some learners need
endless technical breakdowns in order to comprerhend and reproduce the
material (technique as well as well as the Tango elements and the
architecture and mechanics of the Tango) . One should also determine how
much Tango and what level one might be aiming for. When I first saw the
expression, "Forever Tango", it was explained to me that that is how long you
can study Tango and still improve. It comes as a great shock to most learning
dancers that it could take them more than a few weeks to become a comfortable
dancer in Argentine Tango. What I personally discovered is that it took me
36 months to determine how long (how many more years ) it would take me to
"become a good Argentine Tango Dancer". One must define what the meaning of
"good" is in only in terms of how the individual learner perceives
himself. When you are "good" partners (other than your special other")
return often to seek you out to repeat the nice dancing experience they have
achieved from previous encounters with you at previous Milongas.
You might also seek the critique of some of the better dancers in your
environment as to how "successful" you have been in your learning mission.
To be continued.......
Sincerely,
Arturo
AHGberg @aol.com
West Palm BEAch, Florida, USA
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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:16:46 EST
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: what leverl of dancer are you
In most cases the level at which you dance is how well you perform your
movements, not how many dance steps you know. Whether you might call it
Bronze, silver or gold, I feel there is a different category of levels you
also should consider
It's just my opinion
A beginner-needs and dances tango to choreographed steps they learned, each
step they perform having its own beginning, its own middle, and its own
ending, or resolution.
An intermediate dancer is able to connect or combine two or more steps that
they learned having only one beginning and only one resolution. The middles
of all the steps all combined together as one.
An advance dancer-finally learns to just walk to the music. Being able to
step on either side of the lady in a crossed or parallel leg position, and to
be able to entering the lady into ochos, or molenetes at will.
Walking, the most basic steps of the tango, but considered advanced. Even in
Carlos Copello and Alicia Monti's video tape, it's not until the forth and
final tape (Advanced)
that they teach walking steps, and there are very few tapes that do teach
walking.
like I said, it's just my opinion, but something to consider
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:59:45 EST
From: "Laurie Moseley (at home)" <LGMoseley @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning from videos (and tuition)
In a message dated 18/12/99 3:51:36 AM GMT Standard Time,
smling @email.msn.com writes:
<< tuition refers to the money that you pay. I think you mean "tutoring" not
tuition. >>
I think that we have an example here of a transatlantic difference in usage.
"Tuition" is (or at least was) the process of transferring knowledge from one
person to another by some process of instruction. In many colleges the money
that you paid for such instruction was called "tuition fees". In the USA,
this has become abbreviated to simply "Tuition". It is a commonplace usage,
but historically is still an abbreviation, and like most such abbreviations
does little to foster more effective communication between people.
I would add that this process of abbreviation is becoming more common over
here in the UK. The result is that communication suffers here as well. I
still prefer to use the clearer phrase "tuition fees" for the money meaning.
I used the word "tuition" without considering transatlantic
misinterpretations or the resulting unnecessary use of bandwidth, and
apologise. Could we agree on "teaching" ?
Safe Ganchos
Laurie (Laurence)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:51:11 -0800
From: Jean Walsh <tangochic @HOTBOT.COM>
Subject: Copes and passion
Several recent messages indicated the apparent lack of passion in Copes' performances in Tango Argentino. Could it be that he is only human and can no longer generate much passion after doing the same routines for so many years?
I don't think that even his harshest critics can deny Copes due credit for all that he has done for the Tango. But should he be treated as some "god" figure? He is only a stage dancer - a "legendary" stage dancer, if you will, but nothing more than that.
I would be interested to hear from people who saw the Tango Argentino about other dancers - namely Pablo Veron, Guillermina, Vanina, and all others worth mentioning.
Muchas gracias,
Jean.
HotBot - Search smarter.
http://www.hotbot.com
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:08:27 EST
From: Richard deSousa <M1APORT @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: learning tango from videos - Second Try
Whoops! I replied only to Steve Brown (sorry, Steve, to clutter your email
box!) when I intended to send a reply to the tango list serve.
Rich deSousa
Steve, Jorge, et al.
I have a reverse application for the videos. After a few months of taking
classes from a wide variety of instructors here in the San Francisco area (I
started in January 1999 with Nora at Stanford) I purchased the entire Gloria
and Eduardo and Daniel Trenner with Brooke Burdett series. They didn't help
me initially. But now I find the videos much more informative after having
gotten past the beginner stage because I am able to disassemble the steps and
use what I need. It's absolutely true it's difficult to memorize all the
steps most instructors teach during the classes and they are soon forgotten
unless I take notes. At this stage of my tango life I am beginning to be
able to apply parts of what I learn and incorporate them into my own
choreography, rather than memorize all the steps by rote.
Rich deSousa
In a message dated 12/16/99 11:32:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG writes:
<< Jorge Navarro wrote:
>All this talk about movement vs. steps. You can't move around the floor
without
>steps! And students, especially beginners, get bored or discouraged, when a
>teacher spends too much time on walking vs. fancy steps, ganchos, boleos,
and
>adornos. It's mostly the advanced students who understand the importance of
>proper walking and balance.
Jorge's remarks are well taken, but it raises the question as to why some
remain
permanent beginners and others advance even as they are taking the same
classes
or watching the same videos. I suspect that those who remain permanent
beginners continue to see tango as sequences of steps to be memorized, and
have
neither learned to move well nor to lead and follow.
>So, it is a difficult issue to solve, especially for professional teachers
who
>need new students to make a living, as opposed to amateurs who teach for fun
>and for the love of the Tango.
Absolutely! Teaching the inner craft of tango and attracting beginners is
very
difficult. Many teachers solve this problem by offering classes at different
levels. Nonetheless, many dancers have taken numerous classes and
progressed in
their own minds without ever having learned the basic skills of movement or
lead
and follow. Believing the dance to be constructed of sequences of steps,
these
dancers are likely to learn as little from most "advanced" classes as they
would
from a video.
--Steve de Tejas
>>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:36:22 EST
From: Randy Pittman <MailAlive @AOL.COM>
Subject: Tradation Honor and Respect
Hola Milongueros y Tangueras,
A special welcome to our new Tangurea Gloria, and a big thank you to Keith
Elshaw for the informative post on Juan Carlos Copes.
The list of books, documentaries and writings on Mr. Copes is immense, world
wide and in many languages. As with all pioneers of any endeavor, there will
be good reviews and criticism of their shows, performances, trials,
tribulations and accomplishments.
I wish to address a posting from "Tangostud". ? ? ?
> RE: Tradition and Copes
> Speaking of Copes and "Tradition", isn't a fact that most of his famous
> choreographies have not changed in 40+ years?!
> Not a single step - everything is the same no matter what show or movie he
> is in, Juan Carlos never changes anything!!!
> Respectfully,
> AT
In all of the documentaries I've seen in all of the information I've read,
and with all the people that I've talked to about Mr. Copes. I've never heard
any statement or criticisms such as yours, about Juan Carlos's
choreographies.
I have several questions for this (" Tangostud" Respectfully AT) person, who
wishes to come to the table in an anonymous faceless fashion. In my opinion,
you've addressed your posting with a "disrespectful" manner.
1st I don't have to ask "why"? you wish to be anonymous. You realize, the
things that you intend to post, will not bring any new friends, and I assume
that you do not want to be shunned at the milongas and classes that you
attend, so animosity for you, is a necessity of life.
1. How long have you been in tango?
2. Have you even seen Mr. Copes perform?
3. How many times have you seen Copes perform?
4. Are you American, Latin or other?
In the world of Tango, and in the Latin world, Honor and Respect usually
follow Tradition. I see a major disrespect in your posting on Mr. Copes.
I've seen Mr. Copes dancing in documentaries and in the last movie Tango.
Last year, I did not just see him from a seat in the auditorium, I and over
300 people had the privilege to spend 7 fabulous days and nights at the USTC
Tango Fantasy on Miami Beach, taking classes, having lunch, dinner and
dancing with Mr. Copes at the milongas. In the final show that he performed
with his daughter Johana, his presentation was strong and commanding.
Many entertainers that reach his stature in life, are aloof and arrogant. NOT
MR. COPES. Gentleman, professional and courteous only begins to describe
Mr. Copes.
The most impressive thing that I saw that week, was the incredible respect
that all the professors demonstrated towards Mr. Copes. I asked Guillermo
Merlo to join Mr. Copes for refilming of some classes. Guillermo, (in a
respectful manner) would not enter the room until Mr. Copes had finished.
I have only heard people speak of how hard Copes worked, struggling during
the dark years of Tango. Creating and adding his own personal touch to the
shows, and his students of Tango. That, it was the consistent and persistent
work of Mr. Copes and many of his fellow Milongueros that preserved the
Tango. That trained the new generation of tangueros that we enjoy watching
perform and entertain on the Tango stages worldwide.
I am a pureblooded Gringo. I moved to Miami 7 years ago. I thank the Latin
community, for their courtesy and respect, and the way they opened their arms
and accepted, an American ballroom dancer, dancing and performing the
Argentine Tango in Miami. One of the most important values to the Latin
community is courtesy and respect. Especially, respect for their elders.
Randy Pittman
USTC Tango Fantasy on Miami Beach
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:55:03 -0500
From: Ronnie Hausheer <rhaushee @MAIL.NYSED.GOV>
Subject: Dance Cruises
Hi Group.
I've gone on two dance cruises with Dancers at Sea: 3 nights in the =
Caribbean and 7 nights in the Mediterranean. On both occasions, Wendy, =
the organizer, made arrangements with the cruise line to give the group =
exclusive dance space. Some ships have larger dance floors than others, =
and that can be a problem, but, we were never put out on an open deck and =
told to fend for ourselves. Wendy arranged for the group to have lessons =
during the day (when we were out to sea - so we didn't miss any side =
trips), and there was 3-4 hours of dancing every night.
You can find Dancer at Sea online: dancersatsea.com
Ronnie
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:04:00 -0800
From: Michael McDonald <mcdonald_86 @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Tango
--- Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV>
wrote:
>....(Ochos are done on cross feet.)
>
Michael,
Ocho may also be on parallel feet. Try it, its
interesting:-)
Mike
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:28:48 -0800
From: Phil Seyer <Phil_Seyer @ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Need for Choreographed steps for the beginner
In my humble opinion a beginner *can* learn to improvize immediately and
need not learn choreographed steps with a clear beginning, middle and end.
Perhaps I believe this because this is the style of partner dancing on the
West Coast. Most of us tend to like "lead and following" dancing where there
is no long choreographed patterned (as is popular in New York and in
England). It means the beginning leader must learn to think ahead and
invent steps and patterns on the spot. More advanced dancers don't need to
think ahead consciously -- they just dance -- the thinking is done
unconsciously like a jazz musician who feels the music and improvises
without conscious left brain activity.
For this to work the teacher must be skilled in teaching improvisation and
lead and follow concepts from the beginning. Not all teachers can do this.
So if you have always learned from a teacher that uses long choreographed
patterns, you may think this is the only way.
---
www.MagicSeyer.com
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:10:08 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: "Tango Argentino"
Jean's message asked about dancers other than Mr. Copes in "Tango
Argentino". I had a visit with Pablo Veron after the show we saw, and I
found his comments interesting. He said he really enjoyed being in the
ensemble, and that he believed his partnership with Guillermina was
improving each time they dance. Apparently he is aware of the criticism
that they did not appear to dance very well as a couple. I mentioned this
to Jak at the milonga that night, and he said that Guillermina had said the
same thing to him. :)
We saw the show two weeks ago, and enjoyed it very much. We are big fans of
both dancers and thought their numbers were elegant and exquisitely
executed. It appears Guillermina is a little shorter than Victoria Vieyra,
also a partner to Pablo, but they still seem well suited. The individual
numbers they dance are good choices for their talents. I particularly
enjoyed their tango from the 'teens, with Guillermina in gold turkish
trousers, embroidered tunic and a turban with a feather. They use the
entire (large) stage to good advantage, for the turning "twirly" moves Pablo
is famous for. It's great show tango.
We also enjoyed the orchestra very much. We are thrilled to hear one
bandoneon play in Washington, so hearing 6 was wonderful. We did not enjoy
the singers very much. They are probably all famous to some on this list,
and I mean no disrespect, but every song seemed to register only one
emotion - great, angst ridden passion, dialed up to the pain-threshold
level.... a little nuance would go a long way here, in my opinion. Our
seats were close to the front, and some of these ladies looked really scary
in their stage make-up.......
We would happily see this show again, and hope it comes to Washington.
Melinda
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 02:08:07 -0500
From: tangostud @MOST-WANTED.COM
Subject: Re: Tradation Honor and Respect
Randy Pittman writes:
"I've never heard any statement or criticisms such as yours, about Juan
Carlos's choreographies."
Does not mean it's not a fact! Just watch him dance again and you'll see.
Not only I've seen Copes perform in several different shows, I even attended
several of his classes. He is just as elegant of a dancer in person as he is
on stage. Nobody is denying that he is a hard-working, talented
professional dancer who contributed hugely to the success of the Tango around
the world. I merely expressed my amazement of the fact that he never changed
his routines.
I am not critisizing an "elder" person, but discussing a famous tango
person's strengths and weaknesses.
He is not perfect! Nobody is. So shoot me for saying that! Or be indignant
about my e-mail address - it was my wife's idea - love you baby!
Now, here comes real criticism of Copes. Ready? He is a horrible teacher.
He can't teach. Period. All he does is make you memorize his steps. Many,
many steps. An average pattern is over 20 steps. And then he forgets
what to do on step 18 or 19. So his daughter must bail him out. Another
common complain is about his lead - he pushes women around using his hands.
Enough, I think. This should generate 18 to 20 hate replies.
Oh, yes, one final comment.
Randy writes: "In the final show that he performed with his daughter Johana,
his presentation was strong and commanding."
That's not what I've heard from a couple of students of your Congress, Randy.
What did Copes do before his dance? Did he by any chance give a 30 minute
drunken speech that nobody could understand, and then had Johana literally
drag him through their routine since he could not remember any steps? How
"commanding" really was it?
Respectfully,
A.T.
You can call me Al.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 18 Dec 1999 to 19 Dec 1999 (#1999-95)
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