The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 30 Aug 1999
to 31 Aug 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 03:00:01 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 30 Aug 1999 to 31 Aug 1999
There are 10 messages totalling 529 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Nastiness on the Tango List (2)
2. Size of side step in grapevine (3)
3. Notice of interest to San Francisco Bay Area (CA, USA) residents/visitors
4. tango in cuba
5. mexico
6. commentary by "tangostud"
7. a couple of general comments
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 07:46:05 EDT
From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
Subject: Nastiness on the Tango List
Dear Friends & Associates:
I cannot conceive of another Tango List that would or could seriously
detract or compete for members and their intellectual and/or passionate
contributions. I truly believe that Mr. Sharukh Merchant, a truly refined
gentlemen, who has been instrumental in building the list to nearly a
thousand participants, is owed a debt of gratitude by its participants as
well as from those who in the Tango Community (not members), for spending
his time and giving quality effort in providing us with this marvelous forum
to discuss Argentine Tango. ....and it is free! No cost! I am reasonably
certain that there are others who have kept a low profile who have also
provided their time and efforts, free of charge, to help Mr. Merchant handle
the work behind the scenes. Much work goes into the operation of a
discussion group of this nature. I wish to offer Mr. Shahrukh Merchant my
personal thank you for his courage in pioneering this delightful project. I
think that Shahrukh's suggestion that people who require some adjustments in
the operation of this forum not only make their complaints but also accompany
their complaints with some constructive suggestion as to how to remedy the
problem so that the list can improve its capability of satisfying the
needs of "at least the majority of its participants" . One can do little
with a "raw complaint"! Constructive criticism works when a remedy is
supplied with the complaint!.
This is "the internet", an electronic marvel of the age. I am beginning to
understand after many years on the internet just how to deal with it. What
can be changed and what cannot! What one has to live with and what one does
not have to live with. Tolerance, patience and resiliency are needed in
abundance!
It takes some considerable time and effort in shaping the discussion group
to suit the needs or all the diverse personalities who "choose to be a
guest" on this forum. It is nice that no one need pass a test to qualify for
"participation" in our Tango discussion group. I have found that being on
the internet is almost like being on the street. One has to stay alert to
people who occasionally choose to take advantage of your good nature.
Alberto Paz once described the Tango-l "as like writing on the wall of a
latrine". He advised that no one should take it too seriously. People come
and go on this scene. There are good people and bad. That is exactly like
life! Exchanging ideas and being in a give and take discussion is not for
everyone. One often risks getting blistering replies from other people who
do not like your ideas. Everyone seems to have their own (little) agenda.
But although It is not for everyone, that doesn't mean that when something
appears on your screen that annoys you or shocks you , you should impulsively
quit and go elsewhere. The building is not burning nor is there any threat
of being hurt by it's collapse. The sky is not falling. Do not let anyone
convince you that it is. The Tango-l is in no danger of collapsing. It has
too many loyal participants!
Since it is a free country (the last time I looked and I can only vouch for
the USA) and one has freedom of speech to say almost anything one chooses.
You are free to write what ever you choose in one's posts, within the
range of academic propriety and gentility, you should gird your loins (be
prepared) to handle the occasional rotten tomatoe thrown by someone from the
surging and sometimes unruly crowd. I must admit that some of the stuff I
receive in my e-mail box is a challenge to my patience and frequently
annoying. Generally speaking I warn anyone who joins the list to be prepared
to deal with whatever (craziness) comes across one's computer screen. Of
course I would always look to the list administrator to help maintain order
so as to avoid having the "piranhas" eat the flesh off the bones of the
"unsuspecting" less aggressive participants."
I for one feel just as Nancy Ingle does about what and how Mr. Paz has
conducted himself in his participation on this list. I however happen to
enjoy Mr. Paz's nasty writing. I feel that Mr. Paz should have the right to
be who he is (within reason). I think he has a right to be nasty and
intimidating. Otherwise he would be hypocritical. Mixed in with his
"snarling invective" is often some useful tidbits. Although I have often
been the victim of Mr. Paz's vitriolic writing I would be the first to
protect his right to "free speech".
Somehow I will feel like I am walking on some quiet battle scene after the
dead and debris have been cleared. Mr. Paz's recent "angelic" behavior and
criticism of others who say inappropriate things, personally about him "is
out of character". I for one have rejected the offer to become one of the
participants on a discussion list administered by Alberto Paz. Every one
has a right to make a decision that suits their personal needs.
So Come on Alberto! Give us some parting shots! Call me some names. Use
some new and original ones. Not the ones you have already used. Give us
your complaints, your bitterness and above all personal attacks, so we
can all recover from your presence and rejoice/mourn your departure (you
do seem to have some supporters on the list who love you ) ...and then the
rest of us Tango-l participants can get back to discussing the subject we
so love, Argentine Tango.
Sincerely,
Arturo
AHGberg @aol.com
West Palm Beach, Florida, USA
P.S. See Sharukh! I didn't use one profane word.
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:10:54 -0400
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Nastiness on the Tango List
Dear Listeros,
Owing to my recent experience, I have a question or two for any who care to
address them. Does the instruction:
======================================================================
Your article, though heartfelt, was commentary on how others post, and
did not directly include sufficient tango-related comments or tango-
related responses to comments by others.
======================================================================
apply to all of us or some of us?
If it applies to all of us, where does the gentlemanly-like message (below),
which just appeared in my mailbox, fit?
Original Message -----
From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 7:46 AM
Subject: Nastiness on the Tango List
> Dear Friends & Associates:
>
> I cannot conceive of another Tango List that would or could seriously
> detract or compete for members and their intellectual and/or passionate
> contributions. I truly believe that Mr. Sharukh Merchant, a truly refined
> gentlemen, who has been instrumental in building the list to nearly a
> thousand participants, is owed a debt of gratitude by its participants
as
> well as from those who in the Tango Community (not members), for
spending
> his time and giving quality effort in providing us with this marvelous
forum
> to discuss Argentine Tango. ....and it is free! No cost! I am reasonably
> certain that there are others who have kept a low profile who have also
> provided their time and efforts, free of charge, to help Mr. Merchant
handle
> the work behind the scenes. Much work goes into the operation of a
> discussion group of this nature. I wish to offer Mr. Shahrukh Merchant my
> personal thank you for his courage in pioneering this delightful project.
I
> think that Shahrukh's suggestion that people who require some adjustments
in
> the operation of this forum not only make their complaints but also
accompany
> their complaints with some constructive suggestion as to how to remedy
the
> problem so that the list can improve its capability of satisfying the
> needs of "at least the majority of its participants" . One can do little
> with a "raw complaint"! Constructive criticism works when a remedy is
> supplied with the complaint!.
>
> This is "the internet", an electronic marvel of the age. I am beginning
to
> understand after many years on the internet just how to deal with it.
What
> can be changed and what cannot! What one has to live with and what one
does
> not have to live with. Tolerance, patience and resiliency are needed in
> abundance!
>
> It takes some considerable time and effort in shaping the discussion
group
> to suit the needs or all the diverse personalities who "choose to be a
> guest" on this forum. It is nice that no one need pass a test to qualify
for
> "participation" in our Tango discussion group. I have found that being
on
> the internet is almost like being on the street. One has to stay alert to
> people who occasionally choose to take advantage of your good nature.
> Alberto Paz once described the Tango-l "as like writing on the wall of a
> latrine". He advised that no one should take it too seriously. People
come
> and go on this scene. There are good people and bad. That is exactly
like
> life! Exchanging ideas and being in a give and take discussion is not for
> everyone. One often risks getting blistering replies from other people
who
> do not like your ideas. Everyone seems to have their own (little) agenda.
> But although It is not for everyone, that doesn't mean that when
something
> appears on your screen that annoys you or shocks you , you should
impulsively
> quit and go elsewhere. The building is not burning nor is there any
threat
> of being hurt by it's collapse. The sky is not falling. Do not let
anyone
> convince you that it is. The Tango-l is in no danger of collapsing. It
has
> too many loyal participants!
>
> Since it is a free country (the last time I looked and I can only vouch
for
> the USA) and one has freedom of speech to say almost anything one chooses.
> You are free to write what ever you choose in one's posts, within the
> range of academic propriety and gentility, you should gird your loins (be
> prepared) to handle the occasional rotten tomatoe thrown by someone from
the
> surging and sometimes unruly crowd. I must admit that some of the stuff I
> receive in my e-mail box is a challenge to my patience and frequently
> annoying. Generally speaking I warn anyone who joins the list to be
prepared
> to deal with whatever (craziness) comes across one's computer screen.
Of
> course I would always look to the list administrator to help maintain
order
> so as to avoid having the "piranhas" eat the flesh off the bones of the
> "unsuspecting" less aggressive participants."
>
> I for one feel just as Nancy Ingle does about what and how Mr. Paz has
> conducted himself in his participation on this list. I however happen
to
> enjoy Mr. Paz's nasty writing. I feel that Mr. Paz should have the right
to
> be who he is (within reason). I think he has a right to be nasty and
> intimidating. Otherwise he would be hypocritical. Mixed in with his
> "snarling invective" is often some useful tidbits. Although I have
often
> been the victim of Mr. Paz's vitriolic writing I would be the first to
> protect his right to "free speech".
>
> Somehow I will feel like I am walking on some quiet battle scene after the
> dead and debris have been cleared. Mr. Paz's recent "angelic" behavior
and
> criticism of others who say inappropriate things, personally about him "is
> out of character". I for one have rejected the offer to become one of the
> participants on a discussion list administered by Alberto Paz. Every one
> has a right to make a decision that suits their personal needs.
>
> So Come on Alberto! Give us some parting shots! Call me some names.
Use
> some new and original ones. Not the ones you have already used. Give us
> your complaints, your bitterness and above all personal attacks, so we
> can all recover from your presence and rejoice/mourn your departure (you
> do seem to have some supporters on the list who love you ) ...and then
the
> rest of us Tango-l participants can get back to discussing the subject
we
> so love, Argentine Tango.
> Sincerely,
> Arturo
> AHGberg @aol.com
> West Palm Beach, Florida, USA
> P.S. See Sharukh! I didn't use one profane word.
>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:26:00 -0400
From: Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV>
Subject: Size of side step in grapevine
Jean asked in an earlier message: "What is the proper size of
the side step?"
AT LAST, A REAL QUESTION ABOUT TANGO!!
Jean:
Don't change your side step. It should be your normal size. If
you're having difficulty staying in front of the man, the man
should change the size of HIS steps.
Without going into a dissertation of geometry, the man is the
center of a circle and you're going around the circle. You
have more area to cover than he does. If you're not getting
completely around and not finishing in front, it means the
man's circle is too wide and needs to be decreased, i.e. he
needs to take smaller steps.
My teacher has told me numerous times, the man accommodates
the woman, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!! His admonition makes
more sense every time I dance.
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:47:59 -0700
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Notice of interest to San Francisco Bay Area (CA,
USA) residents/visitors
Dear Naifas y Garabos,
The Los Altos Milonga will celebrate its First Year Anniversary
this Friday, September 3rd. To commemorate the occasion, a Tango
Dance contest will be held. Three couples will be selected by
public acclamation. Prizes for the winning couples are:
1st. Prize, $100.00
2nd. Prize, $ 75.00
3rd. Prize, $ 50.00
Everybody is welcomed to participate or to simply cheer on your
favorites. As usual, there will be plenty of food including
Argentine empanadas, wine, soft drinks, AND great music.
If you need a map/detail directions, visit http://www.milongas.com
or call me at 650.786.9337. The address for the Los Altos
Milonga is:
The American Legion Hall (across from Draeger's Market)
347 1st. Street
Los Altos, CA
Regards,
ruddy
P.S.: Financial interest? yes. *FILTHY PROFITS*?!! Are you kidding?
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:13:49 +0200
From: Nina Scheu <sh2 @RINGIER.CH>
Subject: tango in cuba
hello listeros!
a friend of mine will travel to cuba soon.
who knows about tango-bars, milongas, etc. there?
any hint will be apreciated
nina
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:29:39 -0700
From: Mike Hamilton <mikeh @MPL.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Size of side step in grapevine
On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Michael Ditkoff wrote:
> Jean asked in an earlier message: "What is the proper size of
> the side step?"
>
> AT LAST, A REAL QUESTION ABOUT TANGO!!
I can agree with that sentiment! My delete key finger was getting
tired! ;-)
> Jean:
> Don't change your side step. It should be your normal size. If
> you're having difficulty staying in front of the man, the man
> should change the size of HIS steps.
I totally agree. Most people complain that the women don't take steps
that are large enough. It is useful when all your steps are about the
same size; that is, your side step isn't much shorter than the front
and back steps. Otherwise, the timing tends to get messed up and it
gets difficult for the man to predict where his partner will step in
response to his leads.
> Without going into a dissertation of geometry, the man is the
> center of a circle and you're going around the circle. You
> have more area to cover than he does. If you're not getting
> completely around and not finishing in front, it means the
> man's circle is too wide and needs to be decreased, i.e. he
> needs to take smaller steps.
A potential problem is that if the follow takes her side step too far
*away* from the lead. This happens sometimes doing an giro,
particularly if she doesn't pivot enough as she comes around from a
front step into the side step. Stepping too far away from that center
of the circle basically destroys the circle, breaks the lead/follow
connection, and pulls both of the dancers off balances as they try to
maintain a connection while moving farther apart. That could be
misinterpreted by the lead as "she's taking too big a step", when
really it is just that the step is going to the wrong place.
Of course, the lead has to provide a space for the follow to step
closer to him. If his weight is on the leg closer to her as she takes
the side step, she will step farther away from him, since his body is
over that leg. If he changes his weight to the back leg after she
takes the side step, then they are too far apart again. This gets
into a timing issue (he needs to make the space before she tries to
step there).
All this is rather gross assumption on my part of what *might* be the
real problem, though.
Jean also wrote:
> The fellow could not give me a good explanation as to why I should
> make my side steps smaller, except that he had learned it in some
> workshop.
I hate this kind of attitude.
If you can't remember the reason for something, why not try to figure
it out again? Just going along with someone else's dogma blindly is
not going to make you a better dancer. If you don't understand the
*concepts* behind the movement, it won't really help you in the long
run. At least, that's how it works for me. Maybe I'll try something
on faith once, but, unless I'm given a reason or find a reason, unless
the movement makes sense, why do it?
[Jak - want to guess what book I'm reading right now? ;-)]
abrazos,
Mike
San Diego
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:24:27 EDT
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Size of side step in grapevine
I totally agree with Mike. One has to understand the movements and the concepts behind it (it is also very cost efficient, you don't have to take the same workshop twice - leave alone 20 times)
Regarding the grapevie: why is it not possible to lead & follow the size of the steps as well as the direction ?
Jak
Mike wrote:
>>If you can't remember the reason for something, why not try to figure it out again? Just going along with someone else's dogma blindly is not going to make you a better dancer. If you don't understand the *concepts* behind the movement, it won't really help you in the long run. At least, that's how it works for me. Maybe I'll try something on faith once, but, unless I'm given a reason or find a reason, unless the movement makes sense, why do it?
[Jak - want to guess what book I'm reading right now? ;-)]
abrazos,
Mike
San Diego
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:15:07 -0400
From: Edwin Svigals <svigals @CYBURBAN.COM>
Subject: mexico
hello list -
does anyone know of tango activity in SAN MIGUEL de ALLENDE in mexico?
thanks...
edwin
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:19:27 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: commentary by "tangostud"
"Regarding Daniela being difficult to move, my experience dancing with
Milena Plebs, Carolina Zokalski (Diego and Carolina) or Florencia Taccetti,
all Argentine and professional dancers is that they are more difficult to
lead
simply because they expect very precise indications before they go
anywhere."
>I totally disagree with you, Charles.
>First of all, the best Argentine professional dancers, such as Milena,
Guillermina, Lorena, Vanina - are the easiest ones to lead. They have been
trained by the best tango teachers of Buenos Aires - all different styles.
I merely stated my experience dancing with them. Have you danced with them
or are you just assuming they are easy to lead because they are
professionals? I hope you have, otherwise you don't really have much of an
argument. I am not the only one to have noticed this and, besides, the
"difficulty" in leading them was a relative term that I was using to make a
point about needing to make clear leading signals, especially with very good
dancers who expect precise leads.
>Second of all, please do not place Florencia in the same high category as
Milena. Florencia (just like Suzana Miller) can barely move on the dance
floor. But this subject is for another time.
I wasn't placing her in the same category, just mentioning the professionals
I had danced with in order to make a point. But are you mixing up stage
performers with salon dancers? Florencia is actually a very good salon dancer
(again, have you danced with her?).
Lastly, could you sign your name so we know the source of the comments. I
would prefer to address you with another name besides A.T. or especially
"tangostud" (?)
Charles Roques
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:40:36 +1000
From: Sandy Smith <sg.smith @QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject: a couple of general comments
Greetings listeros!
I am relatively new to this list, and have read some recent postings with
interest.
Firstly I find some of the comments rather tasteless...and it is not what
people are saying, but how they say it. As a woman who is constantly nagged
by my teacher to put more weight on my partner, it is indeed informative to
discover that many men do not like to dance this way. I also like to hear
other views on this and other matters.
However, this could have been expressed as a general comment & not been
aimed at specific dancers. (Even as I type this I am afraid at the prospect
of people attacking me personally for my views...).
So please can we argue about issues and not personalise things? If you
really want to gossip, then, please not on the list...it is hurtful.
Secondly...this is a real gripe! Could contributors responding to an item
please not include previous items in their entirety (it makes the list
really repetitive and boring), but instead edit out the irrelevant bits and
include only the relevant bits in their reply.
Cheers
sandy
End of TANGO-L Digest - 30 Aug 1999 to 31 Aug 1999
**************************************************