The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 28 Aug 1999
to 29 Aug 1999
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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 03:00:02 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 28 Aug 1999 to 29 Aug 1999
There are 11 messages totalling 628 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. (fwd) Just part of Life... & Regional Lists
2. Thanks
3. Several Tango-L administrative items
4. Fabian Salas
5. Salida to back
6. Miami: Workshops by Fabian Salas and Metin Yazir
7. Tango in Paris.
8. Url-Correction
9. Salida to back & Re: "light like a feather" (2)
10. Milongas or Tango Events in San Francisco/Oakland Area
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 08:26:02 GMT
From: Ed Loomis <edl @WCO.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Just part of Life... & Regional Lists
I want to thank Graciela and Cherie (see below) for injecting some
common sense and just plain sanity into this discussion list. The list
moderator will be well employed chasing off the porno pukes. Trying to
ensure that nobody has to see anything that they don't like, however,
is slowly wrecking this forum. Adults should have the emotional
stability and forbearance to live and let live and not rely on big
daddy and his rule book to protect them from every nuance of life.
After all, isn't tango at some point about finding our own inner
strength.=20
Ed
On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:52:29 EDT, Graciela Badt <Gratyb @AOL.COM>
wrote:
>The tango list is not the only place where inappropriate, malicious, or
>offensive material/communication appears. While that is hardly a
>justification for condoning it or taking part in it, why not deal with =
it in
>the same way that we can deal with other unpleasant people and behavior
>anywhere? Don't encourage it by responding to it. The list contains
>informative and stimulating messsages, as well as a lot of garbage (as =
do
>newspapers, magazines, books, and life in general).
>Instead of missing out on the good stuff by removing yourself from the =
list,
>or wasting your time and on-line minutes by responding to list-babble, =
just
>delete what you can't use, and enjoy and take advantage of the rest.
>There are many people on the list who truly love and understand tango, =
and
>whose comments and ideas continue to inspire me. What doesn't interest =
me,
>inform me, or please me, I just quickly make it disappear with a click =
of the
>mouse. If only that worked outside the TANGO-L!
>Graciela
On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:37:31 EDT, Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
wrote:
>Hi List, or what's left of it--
>
>Just my 2 cents, but I enjoy reading about tango events around the world=
as
>well as in my own backyard. I like to know what teachers are giving =
workshops
>where, who's doing what when. It gives me a sense of community.
>
>I found out a year and a half ago, when I began the tango traveling that
>hopefully one day will qualify me as a Tango Bum, that the tango world =
is
>small. I've made friends in milongas around the world, and have kept =
many of
>them over the internet.
>
>Communication is fantastic. Isn't that what we all require from a good =
tango?
>Let's try to keep our minds open, as well as our knees together, and get=
on
>with the dance!
>
>Cherie
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:44:30 +0200
From: Sabine Fuchs <Sabine.Fuchs @SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: Thanks
I would like to thank everybody who provided me with information about Vilma
Vega and Fernando Galero. They are giving classes in Salzburg at the
beginning of October and I am looking forward to join them.
Abrazos
Sabine
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:18:43 -0400
From: Shahrukh Merchant <merchant @ALUM.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Several Tango-L administrative items
Please read this e-mail. It should be of interest to most list members.
Please respond to tango-L-request @mitvma.mit.edu with followups.
1. Delays in administrative tasks
As I have been away for 2 weeks, Tango-L administrative tasks have been
delayed during that time, mainly (a) approval of postings from new or
monitored posters and (b) controlling inappropriate postings (mainly
non-Tango-related ones and personal flames). It will take a few more
days to sort through the backlog--please be patient. If this seems
excessive, I will just quote to you the words of someone much more
experienced in mailing list administration than I:
>The Tango-L mailing list is not a guaranteed service supported by a large
>organization. It is a personal service of one person and possible assistants.
>When he is out of town or just out of touch, the service waits.
On a more optimistic note, however, this problem (which used to occur
once or twice a year) should disappear in a few weeks or less once I get
the co-administrators "on-line" (there were several much-appreciated
offers to help from well-qualified people) and even the "normal"
response time which would sometimes extend to a few days should
decrease.
2. Non-Tango related postings
These are not appropriate on Tango-L, even if they are well-intentioned
(e.g., humanitarian causes, virus warnings, etc.), unless they also have
a clear Tango connection. There are numerous fora on the Internet for
discussion of almost any topic under the sun, and these postings should
be directed there. Another major category of these are personal flames.
(See (1) for why some of them went unchecked for a while.) Needless to
say, these and other cases are well documented in the Tango-L rules.
3. Is this list moderated or isn't it?
It's basically unmoderated, but it's monitored. That means that posters
who post within the list rules can do so freely. The process works more
or less as follows: New list members start out with their postings being
monitored. After a couple of normal postings, they are set to be able to
post directly. This catches a large number of mostly routine problems
such as mail sent in HTML format, binary attachments, unsubscribe
requests, etc., as well as a much smaller number of postings that did
not observe the Tango-L posting rules. All of these receive an e-mail
explaining the reason for not being approved (except for spam or for
multiple postings of the same type for which an explanation was already
sent recently). Most list members are unaware of this function because
it largely works, i.e., it keeps this "noise" away from the list. But it
is still a very small fraction of e-mail to Tango-L that goes through
this approval process--almost all of it is posted directly.
If posters who CAN post directly post a message that would have been
rejected if their postings were being monitored, obviously it's too late
to stop the distribution to the list. However, their subsequent postings
are then temporarily monitored to protect the list from additional such
postings and they receive a similar explanation. (You can see what just
two weeks of the absence of such monitoring did to the additional noise
level on Tango-L.)
This process isn't perfect, and this is why there sometimes appears to
be inconsistency in application of the rules: Those that are not being
monitored can post one (or more, if the administrator is not checking
the postings frequently) "inappropriate" posting before the poster
receives the reminder or explanation. These reminders are always sent
privately so that no one feels reprimanded publically (the vast majority
of these are simply innocent mistakes or an innocent failure to take
seriously the request to read the list rules on subscribing), which of
course also means that other list members don't realize that some action
was taken. The alternative is to make Tango-L fully moderated
(everything goes through one of a rotating set of moderators), but that
is foreign to my model for Tango-L, which is for it to be an open
discussion forum for Tango (but within the established boundaries).
(Besides, it would require significantly more administrative support for
timely processing of the much larger volume of mail.) While the current
approach may lack some finesse, it seems to work reasonably well.
One important point that should be clarified, however, is that posters
are NOT set to be monitored as a "punitive" measure (even though one can
understand that in some cases it could seem like that to someone who
receives a rules reminder and didn't get a response to a followup
posting because I was away for 2 weeks--hence this clarification). It is
done simply to keep the postings to the list consistent with the
pre-established rules--as stated earlier, most (but not all)
inappropriate postings are made innocently, and these reminders have
been sent to long-time list members and newbies alike, and unknown
persons and good friends alike. (After all, imagine the practical
difficulties of keeping a "violation index" for 1000 list members with a
graduated set of "penalties"--"Get a Life" would be the appropriate
sentiment towards a list administrator who attempted that!) It is a
non-trivial hassle to approve postings manually and send reminder
messages, etc., and there is a strong incentive for the administrator(s)
to keep the number of posters being monitored to the minimum.
4. Announcements of local events and commercial postings
The list rules have always limited announcements of local and commercial
events, but without precluding them entirely, in an attempt to strike a
balance between promoting dissemination of information about Tango
events and organizations worldwide (commercial or otherwise), while not
being bogged down by a flood of local announcements and advertisements
which could greatly dilute the useful information content for a list of
international scope.
This particular rule was lightly enforced until perhaps a few months ago
when the frequency of such postings had risen to the point that
complaints about them started to increase in frequency. So, partially as
an experiment, enforcement of this rule was stepped up. The results
provided some useful insights. There was certainly an expression of
relief from those who started to find them annoying (in particular the
repetitious ones). Most of those reminded of this rule were gracious
about accepting it, though there was also some dissatisfaction from a
small number who had got used to being able to make those postings and
argued, not entirely without justification, that the rules were perhaps
a little too rigid on this point. The most thoughtful response, however,
came from a gentleman in Urbana, Illinois, who recognized the problem of
the "clutter" of postings that wouldn't be of interest to a large
percentage of subscribers but yet made a persuasive case for the value
of such postings to at least a subset of the membership of Tango-L. His
suggestion, which I will follow up on now that there is additional
administrative help, is to have a complementary list or sub-list for
Tango announcements which would be for the express purpose of announcing
Tango events and would therefore (a) be almost entirely non-overlapping
with Tango-L in content (b) not have any intrinsic limitation on local
or commercial events and (c) would not need to be subscribed to by those
who preferred not to see event information but still wished to
participate in Tango-related discussions on Tango-L. So look for more on
this in the next few days ...
5. Personal replies from the administrator
These are not always possible, but I do read all administrative mail
directed to tango-L-request @mitvma.mit.edu or to me directly (see
exceptions below). If it is a suggestion, it is noted (and acted upon as
appropriate). If it is a request for action (manual deletion, for
example) it is done or you get a reply if there was some problem doing
it. If it is a thoughful suggestion or a request for help, you will
almost certainly get a reply, although possibly not right away. If it is
rude or offensive (a very small but non-zero minority of mail I get), it
is deleted once this determination is made (with the limited time I have
to devote to Tango-L, I would much rather spend 30 minutes helping a
newbie through something seemingly trivial than 30 seconds on someone
who cannot be courteous).
6, What if I don't like the Tango-L rules?
The most constructive thing to do would be to send e-mail to
tango-L-request @mitvma.mit.edu indicating the rule you believe could be
improved, how you would reword it, and with some examples of specific
cases where you believe those revisions would help. While the Tango-L
rules have proven quite durable for several years now, I would hardly
claim that they are perfect and couldn't benefit from others' insights.
Obviously, the more thought out and constructive such a suggestion is,
the more useful (and persuasive) it is--it is hard to do much with just
a complaint.
For the miniscule minority who feel that not liking the rules entitles
them to ignore them, I would remind them that, as was pointed out when
they subscribed to Tango-L, they are GUESTS of Tango-L (the sponsoring
institution, their employees, and the volunteers who keep it going).
Tango-L is a free service to the Tango community, participation in it
does not subject you to forced advertising, and the list addresses are
not sold or otherwise distributed (the last answers someone's recent
question). Those who cannot accept this "guest" model and its
implication that there are house rules that courtesy demands should be
followed (especially where there is an explicit mechanism to provide
constructive suggestions on them), and can only see participating in
Tango-L as an entitlement, should reconsider their own models for
participation in Tango-L. Otherwise they may continue to be frustrated
by their participation in it, and risk further abusing their position as
guests. [The most blatant recent example of the latter was someone who
actually sent insults to the administrator of the host computer systems
at MIT (not me--I just administer this list) because approval of his
posting was delayed! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you--not only
does the system administrator have nothing to do with the
adminmistration of Tango-L but it is to his continued good graces and
goodwill that we have the ability to have Tango-L hosted on their
systems in the first place!]
7. Getting the Tango-L rules
If you misfiled the copy you got when you subscribed, the easiest way to
get it again is to unsubscribe and resubscribe, i.e., send e-mail to
listserv @mitvma.mit.edu with the message
unsubscribe tango-L
subscribe tango-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname
in the body (replacing Yourfirstname Yourlastname with your actual first
and last names).
Regards,
Shahrukh Merchant
Tango-L co-administrator
tango-L-request @mitvma.mit.edu
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:28:21 -0400
From: "L: Anne-Sophie Ville" <Aville @WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Fabian Salas
I am trying to contact Fabian Salas. Could any body tell me where he is now and
give me a contact number if it is possible?
thanks
Anne-Sophie
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:44:58 -0700
From: AlbertoPaz <tangoman @HOOKED.NET>
Subject: Re: Salida to back
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:48:19 -0700
>From: "Richard T. Simoni, Sr." <rtssr @BATNET.COM>
>Subject: Re: Salida to back.
>
>Hi,
>Nature will step in to correct beginners' use of the back step to begin
>the dance...
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:37:25 -0400
>From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
>Subject: Re: Salida to back.
>
>Some men get that pattern in their head and hold on to it for
>dear life, regardless of their surroundings. Metin used to make us dance
>around the perimeter of the room by filling the center of the space with
>chairs so we could NOT drift into it. Then the leaders had to REALLY watch
>where they were going..... I have not seen that done for quite a while, but
>perhaps other teachers use that technique. May all your dances be safe!
This is one horse that keeps taken a steady beating and still manages to get
up and move.
Richard makes a good point to define as "beginners," whatever that means,
those who execute the Eight count basic pattern time after time regardless
of where they are and who is front or behind.
Putting chairs in the middle, walking around the floor with a baseball bat
looking for back steps to wack, are not going to right a very painful wrong.
Most people can't dance tango as the improvisational craft it is because
they have been indoctrinated by people who can't dance it themselves but,
are clever enough to figure out a way to package a series of concepts that
have nothing to do with tango, but in most cases they are enough to fake it.
Leading and following for example is the most lethal concept tjht kills the
ability to improvise a tango. Eight count basic on the other hand fits right in.
Take the women to one side and drill them to follow the eight steps with
built-in cross. Put the men on the other side and drill them to lead with
their feet the steps of the pattern.
Now bring them together (I don't really see the purpose, since they could
dance by e-mail) and not only they will manage to stumble around the floor
but on ocassions, some women who are smarter than their male counterparts
will actually take the lead and repeat the pantomime from the other side.
Now, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. People will do the best
they are capable of and that should be enough to leave them alone.
Besides they are good for repeat business. ;-)
Tangazos,
Alberto
Join other responsible members of the Argentine tango community
at the new Argentine Tango Open Forum at,
http://www.egroups.com/group/argentine-tango/
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:47:10 -0700
From: Dolores Longo <madolo @CSI.COM>
Subject: Miami: Workshops by Fabian Salas and Metin Yazir
Please disregard previous notice, since the columns were all garbled:
T A N G O L E S S O N S...
With
Fabian Salas
&
Metin Yazir
Featuring a week-long, intensive workshop. Classes are offered by each
teacher as a course of related material, ideally taken in progression.
9/3 Friday evening:
7:30- 9:00 p.m.(Fabian) Leading and Following Techniques
270 Catalonia Ave., Coral Gables Followed by Milonga hosted by Roberto
Maiolo ($10)
9/4 Saturday evening:
5:30- 7:00 p.m. (Fabian) Tango (Intermediate)
7:30- 9:00 p.m. (Fabian) Vals 1 1250 NW 22nd. Ave., Miami (Polish American
Club)
Followed by Milonga hosted by Randy & Lidia ($10)
9/5 Sunday afternoon:
3:00- 4:30 p.m.(Fabian) Tango (Advanced)
5:00- 6:30 p.m.(Fabian) Vals 2
410 SE 3rd.Street, Hallandale (Hallandale Cultural Center) Followed by
Milonga hosted by C.I.T.A. ($10)
9/6 Monday evening:
7:30- 9:00 p.m. (Fabian) Sacadas
9:00-10:30 p.m (Metin) Tango
12810 Pine Rd., North Miami (305)891-1659
9/7 Tuesday evening:
7:30- 9:00 p.m.(Metin) Milongas
9:00-10:30 p.m.(Fabian) Embellishments (Men & Women) 4
871 SW 74th. Terrace, Miami (305) 667-5508
9/8 Wednesday evening:
7:00- 8:30 p.m. (Fabian) Milonga
8:30-10:00 p.m (Metin) Vals 410 SE 3rd.Street, Hallandale (Hallandale
Cultural Center)
9/9 Thursday evening:
7:00- 8:30 p.m.(Metin) Ganchos, Boleos, Sacadas
8:30-10:00 p.m.(Metin) Class Request
12810 Pine Rd., North Miami( 305)891-1659
Classes are $25 each, or $20 per class when registering for 5 or more
classes. Private classes are available by appointment. For further
information and directions call any of the following numbers:
(305) 279-6121 (305) 891-1659 (305) 667-5508 (305) 865-0908
Only the teachers have a financial interest in these workshops. The people
organizing them are volunteering their time and will pay as everybody else
for the classes they attend.
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:25:30 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Tango in Paris.
Hi,
I will be in Paris for a few months. I was wondering about the places
to dance regularly(once a week) and any recommendations.
Actually, I did look at the website http://perso.club-internet.fr/tango/
which seems like an exhaustive listing...is this the case?
More importantly, I was looking for info on any of the codes/customs
and dos/donts that I need to be aware of while I am here.
Thanks!
rajan.
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:33:34 +0200
From: "RALPH J. Hangleiter" <delRaHr @MANNHEIM.HYGIENE.SCA.SE>
Subject: Url-Correction
Hello everybody,
the correct URL is http://www.bailatango.com/nc/ (not NC)
Para llegar mejor
Ralph
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Celaya [SMTP:mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 5:01 PM
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:
>
> Hola List:
>
> We wish to welcome Jason Laughlin to our CD dealer list.
> Jason is operating out of the North Carolina area and will
> carry the complete collection of "El Bandoneon" and
> "Blue Moon" tango CDs.
>
> You may contact him at 919-309-1268.
> Web: WWW.bailaTango.com/NC
> email: NC.bailaTango.com
>
> Also, for an extensive description of "El Bandoneon" and
> "Blue Moon" tango CDs, please visit Bob Dronski's website:
> WWW.tangonadamas.com
>
> We welcome all inquiries about becoming a CD dealer in
> your area.
>
> Of course, visit our website: http//home.att.net/~mark-joan-tango
> and our Friday night Milonga.
>
> Con besos,
>
> Mark & Joan
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Get the Internet just the way you want it.
> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:13:35 EDT
From: Vicky Magaletta <Vickymag @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Salida to back & Re: "light like a feather"
Dear List...
I have never written, but finally find it necessary to express my opinion at
this nonsense.
Enough is enough !!!!! You are acting like little children who have to have
the last word. Insulting, bickering and blaming each other.....
I read the mail I get so that I can read about other people's opinion about
Tango or to learn of other activities related to Tango. I am not interested
in receiving notes about bickering little kids who have nothing to do but
write insults and comments about everyone else.
Perhaps the Moderator should send everyone the rules of the Tango-L. and
don't let any messages like these go through. Perhaps these people should
be put on notice and next time they send an insulting message, they should be
removed from the list.
I am not interested in receiving any messages or continuing this
conversation, this was just my thought.
Thank you
Vicky
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:05:32 -0500
From: Robert Schoenberg2 <robert.schoenberg @US.AKERMAR.COM>
Subject: Milongas or Tango Events in San Francisco/Oakland Area
Dear List,
My wife and I will be in the San Francisco/Oakland area on:
Sept. 17th & 18th (Friday & Saturday)
Sept. 24th (Friday)
Are there any milongas or tango events that we could attend?
Thanks for any information,
Robert
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:14:14 EDT
From: Kat Kwan <KatKw @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Salida to back & Re: "light like a feather"
I am a tanguera from San Francisco. I have been involved in the local tango
community for several years. I have been observing the postings for the past
few months and am excited by a forum where we can all express, discuss and
question our understanding of Argentine tango. I find, however, that there
have been a number of personal attacks such as this one which do not relate
to the dance in anyway.
We are all passionate about this dance, the music, and all things connected
to tango, this is shown by our presence on this list. Argentine tango is
danced by people all over the world by people of different economic,
political, religous backgrounds. There needs to be some understanding that
amongst us are differences. Opinions are just that, opinions, not worth the
personal attacks they seem to inspire on this list.
The longer you dance the more people you meet, and the more people you meet,
the more faces can be attached to e-mail names - it seems we should only post
what we would be willing to say to another face to face.
tangokat
End of TANGO-L Digest - 28 Aug 1999 to 29 Aug 1999
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