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Digest from 6 Aug 1999
to 7 Aug 1999
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 6 Aug 1999 to 7 Aug 1999
There are 8 messages totalling 353 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. the embrace (2)
2. "El Indio" and his style
3. Re. Salida
4. Tango in Redding CA?
5. Embrace
6. (no subject)
7. Correct lead into the cross
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 05:25:25 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: the embrace
There are so many time, so many stories, each time you ask someone, a
different way of doing something. I know how I prefer to hold my partner, but
what is it really.
When wrapping your arm around the lady, do you prefer having the lady
standing square to you (heart to heart), or having the lady open in a slight
V, like in as swing stance.
I'd like to hear your opinion
Tim Pogros
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:47:32 EDT
From: Frank Sasson <FRSASSON @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "El Indio" and his style
In a message dated 8/5/99 9:54:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
joe.camper @JUSTICEMAIL.COM writes:
<< Does anyone know who influenced El Indio the most?
His style seems to be a unique mixture of close embrace and the "new tango".
He is obviously a "street dance" of great talent.
I don't know who influenced him, only that the week we had with him in San
Francisco was absolutely wonderful and his manner of teaching, from music to
milonga going through folklore was as unique as he is.
Frank Sasson (Miami)
>>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:37:08 -0700
From: JC Dill <tango @VO.CNCHOST.COM>
Subject: Re: Re. Salida
On 07:31 AM 8/1/99 -0500, Stephen P Brown wrote:
> JC Dill wrote:
>
>>My proposal is that the 8CB be initially taught as:
>>1) side step to the outside (right foot for leader, left foot for follower)
>>2) step forward (back for follower), positioning follower to the leader's
>>right
>>3) step forward (back for follower)
>>4) step forward (back for follower)
>>(2,3,4 become a tango "walk", can be angled to reestablish Line Of Dance if
>>the previous move left the leader heading in a bad direction, and can of
>>course be extended into a longer walk)
>>5) leader closes feet and squares the frame (leading the cross by bringing
>>follower in front), follower crosses
>>6) leader steps forward, (follower steps back)
>>7) side step to the outside (right foot for leader, left foot for follower)
>>8) close (with weight change) for both
>
>>Then, AFTER they learn the "basic" above, they can learn how to "enhance"
>>it, and by doing so they are taught to do a weight change on 1 and a step
>>to the inside on 2. They are taught how to alternate between these two
>>different versions of this "practice basic", and then to use the first
>>one whenever they find themselves heading into the center of the floor.
>
>>Only after mastering both of these variations are they taught that they may
>>also take a step backwards on 1 (and toward the inside of the floor on 2),
>>but only when floor conditions permit this move to be used with good dance
>>floor etiquette.
>
>>Am I overlooking any drawbacks to this idea as a teaching tool?
>
>JC's proposal ignores Alberto Paz' comment that the traditional way a woman
>waits for the man to approach naturally results in the couple starting with
>a side step to the man's left (woman's right) along the line of dance.
No, I didn't ignore Alberto's comment. I'm talking about a modern teaching
tool (some form of repeatable basic pattern). Alberto was talking about a
traditional milonga experience. I was just using Alberto's comment that it
was acceptable to start out with the leader's left and follower's right,
with side steps to the leader's left side (in the direction of the Line of
Dance). If that is the traditional first step then it should also be OK to
use that same step as the first step in a teaching basic.
If we want to do *everything* traditionally, men would learn to dance by
dancing with other men, both leading and following, until they were well
accomplished in the basics before EVER going to a milonga and dancing with
a lady follower, and then they would only lead moves that they had
practiced many times and were certain that they could accomplish them
perfectly. I don't know about you, but there aren't any teachers around
here (including Alberto) who teach solely in the traditional way, or expect
that of their students. For instance, when a male dancer takes private
lessons with Alberto, the student usually dances by leading Valerie rather
than Alberto, and the student is encouraged to attend the local milongas as
soon as he has learned (rather than mastered) the first basics (which,
personally, I think is a good thing). Things *are* different here and now
(in the US anyways) from the ways they were/are in BsAs.
>JC's proposal may also perpetuate use of the eight-count basic and other
>memorized figures because it puts so much emphasis on learning variations
>of the eight-count basic. I would rather see the eight-count basic taught
>as something that can be constructed from more elemental pieces of the
>dance--that is walks in various directions.
I would rather see it that way too. But I am pragmatic. The 8CB has
flourished because it works, it gives the teacher something to develop many
moves off of, and gives the student a repeatable practice pattern. Telling
a beginner student to "just walk, and then whenever you want lead this new
move" is often terrifying to the beginning leader. They want, they NEED a
pattern to repeat to get the parts down in their head. AFAIK, the only way
to avoid this is to teach and learn only in private lessons rather than in
group classes with new dancers every week (the usual way new students are
taught in our area).
>Personally, Susan and I teach students to shift weight to the music, walk
>in line, walk outside, pause, walk to the cross, and to do forward ochos
>before we teach them any side steps. After we teach them side steps, we
>show them how some of the elements can be put together to construct an 8CB
>with weight shift (rock step). We then explain that some teachers call
>this combination "the basic."
Is this in group classes or in private lessons? How many lessons before
they learn this 8CB? How many lessons before they can go to an evening
milonga? Can you take a raw beginner and teach enough of 'something'
(following your program above) in just one 1 hour lesson before an evening
milonga and get them dancing TONIGHT? I think the 8CB comes from the need
for beginning students to leave their first 1 hour lesson able to dance
"something" and be ready to go to a milonga (or stay for the milonga, in
the case of lessons prior to a dance) and dance at least a little bit.
>I think our approach deemphasizes the 8CB because students learn the
>forward ocho first which is more exciting. It also helps the beginning
>student to develop walking skills and to recognize that tango can be
>composed from smaller elements of movement rather than more elaborate
>figures that must be slavishly memorized. By the time the student gets to
>the 8CB, they find it much easier to execute than if it was the first thing
>they were to learn--which seems to lessen the degree to which they lock
>into it as a pattern to repeat.
Good! But again, how long until they are ready to dance at a milonga? How
many drop out because they can't "go dancing" right away?
jc
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:11:39 -0700
From: Clay Nelson <claybird @TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Tango in Redding CA?
I'll be staying a few days in Palo Cedro near Redding, California. Is there
any Argentine Tango in that area?
Thanks...clay
******* ARGENTINE TANGO ******* BALLROOM ******* LATIN ******* SWING *******
Clay's Dance Studio ---------------------- http://www.teleport.com/~claybird
6959 SW Multnomah Blvd ------------------------------- claybird @teleport.com
Portland, OR 97223 ------------------------------------------ (503) 244-8699
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:35:40 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Embrace
>There are so many time, so many stories, each time you ask someone, a
>different way of doing something. I know how I prefer to hold my partner, but
>what is it really.
>When wrapping your arm around the lady, do you prefer having the lady
>standing square to you (heart to heart), or having the lady open in a slight
>V, like in as swing stance.
I'm sure there will be many responses to this both negative and positive, but
there is more or less a traditional embrace. The problem again, just as in
the question of stepping back or to the side in a salida, is compounded
because of the different "styles" of tango that have emerged during the last
twenty years. Believe it or not, tango was actually banned for some years
during the dark days of the military regimes in Argentina. Carlos Gavito told
me how they had to sneak and dance in private clubs and hideways and it was
people such as him and Juan Carlos Copes (and others) and Danel and Maria
here in the US that helped keep the dance alive. Tango as many of us know it
is the product of a resurgence in interest but without the contact with the
real thing as it was danced then and consequently new approaches to it have
arisen. We don't know because we weren't there and unfortunately neither were
many of the young Argentinians. They were too busy listening to American rock
& roll. Later as the interest in tango was revived many influences crept into
the dance. If you see the older milongueros dance you will see more of the
classic tango.
There is a traditional embrace but it is also affected by the particular
figure you are doing. Yes, I like and usually dance closely, at a slight
angle with my left side and her right side open just a bit, hearts touching.
The woman and man make contact with their heads with the woman looking to the
man's left shoulder. The so-called new "milonguero style" where the woman
rests her head on the man's shoulder and "drapes" her arm over his neck
(possibly allowing for a little caress once in a while) is really just a
stylistic choice. You still have to open up once in a while to do more
difficult figures. Yes it is seductive and makes a leader feel good and
romantic, etc, etc, and I sometimes take it as a compliment that my partners
have danced with their eyes closed BUT the woman should be aware of what is
happening as well as the man and in the end it is really just a mannerism. If
any of you have seen Danel and Maria dance you will see a traditional
embrace, or Oswaldo Zotto, or any of the older dancers. When I am in doubt I
look to the older dancers. Many young people just say "that's the old
milonguero style" but the older dancers say "no, THAT is tango". You'll have
to make up your own mind. But before you start rejecting tradition just make
sure you don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
BTW if you would like to see a picture of Danel and Maria in a beautiful
classic tango pose check out the current August issue of W magazine, a slick
upscale fashion rag, page 108. If you look anything like that you are on the
right track.
Cheers,
Charles Roques
>I'd like to hear your opinion
>Tim Pogros
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:12:38 EDT
From: Sherrie Pallotta <SherPal @AOL.COM>
Subject: (no subject)
Hola, I hear that El Indio and Mariana are going to be in Chicago, Does
anyone know when and where. They are wonderful teachers and manage large
groups of students very affectively and spend much time on developing a sense
of the music's compas and the dance's connection. They may not always teach
a lot of figures, but if you can execute even one figure half as well as
they do, then you have really learned something. I recommend them to all who
have the opportunity to "connect" with them. besos, sherrie
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 02:19:25 +0200
From: "Christoph J.W. Schmees" <cjws @GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: Correct lead into the cross
Hi Stella,
the 'default value' (anyway, what I have learned) should be that
you cross. However, if there might be room for a doubt I tend to
lead the cross slightly by means of my body and/or push of my
right hand as you described it (or in close embrace with my
complete right arm). What the man has to lead loud and clear in
any case is the 'not cross', i.e. if he wants the woman to keep
on walking. HTH.
cu,
Christoph
Von: Stella Robinson <stella_robinson @EMAIL.COM>
An: TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu <TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu>
Datum: Freitag, 6. August 1999 06:54
Betreff: Correct lead into the cross
>Hi, all!
>
>I am just a beginner and having occasional problem knowing when
to cross.
>With some men I have no problem following, because they clearly
position
>their body outside of my right shoulder and give me plenty of
time and space
>to do the cross. But other guys are pushing me slightly to the
side with
>their right hand.
>
>What is the correct way? By "correct" I mean the most widely
acceptable way
>they do it in Argentina.
>
>Many thanks,
>Stella.
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
>Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com
>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 02:26:32 +0200
From: "Christoph J.W. Schmees" <cjws @GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: the embrace
Depends mainly on the music and on the woman of course.
It is very hard to dance the late Pugliese in close embrace
(though still possible...) and it is very easy with the early
Canaro or Firpo.
And some woman might whish close embrace, and the other refuse
it.
And you might want to dance close embrace with one woman but not
with the other.
After all there are as many answers as there are combinations of
man, woman and music. That doesn't satisfy you, does it?
cu,
Christoph
Von: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
An: TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu <TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu>
Datum: Freitag, 6. August 1999 11:35
Betreff: the embrace
>There are so many time, so many stories, each time you ask
someone, a
>different way of doing something. I know how I prefer to hold my
partner, but
>what is it really.
>
>When wrapping your arm around the lady, do you prefer having the
lady
>standing square to you (heart to heart), or having the lady open
in a slight
>V, like in as swing stance.
>I'd like to hear your opinion
>Tim Pogros
>
End of TANGO-L Digest - 6 Aug 1999 to 7 Aug 1999
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