The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 23 Apr 1999
to 24 Apr 1999
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Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
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Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 03:00:04 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 23 Apr 1999 to 24 Apr 1999
There are 14 messages totalling 630 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. sign posts vs. leaning posts (Re: Sore Feet: Ouch) (3)
2. What to do about Sore Feet (2)
3. More on feet
4. New 4th Friday milonga with Nora, Redwood City CA
5. tangoing
6. Leaning Post (4)
7. Balance and Leaning
8. Tango Technique
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:25:59 +0200
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: sign posts vs. leaning posts (Re: Sore Feet: Ouch)
Michael Ditkoff writes:
> Colette:
>
> I suggest that you let the man absorb some of your weight. My
> teacher tells men in group lessons that our left hand has one
> purpose only: "to be the woman's private leaning post."
Apart of all the other replies which I agree to [supporting more than
the weight of the own arm is a killer; but it is different from
milonguero where you may think of the entire man as a leaning post
which is a very different game], there is another aspect why you might
want to search the opposite, i.e. not abuse the man as leaning post.
Tango is about COMMUNICATION WITH THE DANCE PARTNER, really like
talking.
If at those points connecting the partners there are STRONG FORCES
working it is like SPEAKING LOUDLY. A structure, where the woman leans
on the man with some weight allows only to speak loudly. Sometimes
this maybe fine, sometimes you may want to enter a MORE SUBTLE form of
communication, in particular in a more open dance style which moreover
GIVES THE WOMAN MORE LIBERTY of expression.
There is some seeming antagony between search for a lighter touch with
the left hand of the man and the right hand of the woman and the
search for a strong connection between the partners. But it only seems
so.
EXERCISE (orig. source unknown, I learned it from Josch Knust, Hannover):
(a) dance with your usual hold with your partner, but nevertheless in
such a way that each partner supports his/her weight herself (not
Milonguero).
(b) now dance in a position where the partners touch with their hands
on both sides, i.e. left hand of man touches right hand of woman,
right hand of man touches left hand of woman. The hands should touch
completely flatly (palms touch palms, fingers fingers, fingers
pointing up) and the overall position should be symmetric in any
achievable sense (distance of the hands from both bodies identical,
left and right completely symmetric, ...) with the position of the
hands lightly outside the shoulders of the couple and at some
compromise level near shoulder hight. A bit like doing pushups... The
first goal is to dance/lead/follow this way any figure you like never
giving up or shifting the positions of the hands relatively to the own
body. The second IMPORTANT GOAL is to do this touching AS LIGHTLY AS
possible. Imagine that between each hand of the man and the woman
there is something fragile you would brake when applying too much
force. Be gentle. Try to get as light as possible.
(c) Now relax and dance in normal hold again. Enjoy the difference ;-)
The aim of this exercise, seemingly oriented at the hands, really is
to increase the awareness of the partners for each other and for the
music.
Have a nice conversation on the floor
-- Peter
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 06:02:56 -0400
From: Jacques Gauthier <salsa-m @LYCOSMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: sign posts vs. leaning posts (Re: Sore Feet: Ouch)
> > I suggest that you let the man absorb some of your weight. My
> > teacher tells men in group lessons that our left hand has one
> > purpose only: "to be the woman's private leaning post."
One teacher I had made us do 3 exercises. One was for
the man to dance with the woman while holding her with
only with his right arm. This was to illustrate that the
left arm wasn't necessary. The second exercise was for
the man to dance with the woman holding her only with
the left arm. This was to illustrate that the right arm isn't
needed. The third exercise was to for the man to dance
with the woman without holding her since apparently
neither arms were necessary.
It was an interesting exercise.
Jacques
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:48:03 +0200
From: Garrit Fleischmann <fleischm @STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE>
Subject: What to do about Sore Feet
Hi everyone,
for all the poor followers who suffer from pain in their feet -
When talking to followers about this topic, some told me
about their strategies to do something good to their feet.
- Try to take more than one pair of dancing shoes on a long
Milonga and change them after some time
- Some women bought tennis shoes and glued a dancing leather
sole under it, so they could turn like in normal dancing shoes,
but have the shock absorbing qualtity of sport shoes - this
is great for practicing.
- try to find someone who is willing to massage your feet -
it is amazing how good this feels and how reviving it is
for your feet.
Just a word about 'the man as a leaning post':
> My
> teacher tells men in group lessons that our left hand has one
> purpose only: "to be the woman's private leaning post."
My idea about the dancing hold is much different from this.
When I dance close to a woman (and that is what I normaly do
in Tango - as close as possible ;-)
we both support our weight ourselves - and also the weight
of our arms. Try to dance 3 dances with a partner who puts
some of his/her weight on your arm, and you will soon have
a nice cramp in your shoulder muscles. (I had this lots of times
while learning to dance)
The dancing hold should IMHO be more like an ambrace - gentle
but firm, for both sides.
There is another problem aside from making dancing uncomfortable,
when you put your weight onto your partner:
It might give you some problems with _leading_ and _following_.
I guess there are many ideas, how leading and following should be done.
Most beginning leader think, that they have to move the follower
in order to get the idea to the other. If there is a porblem
of understanding the lead, then the leader will add some force
in order to 'move the partner' even stronger. In this kind
of leading and following, both use a lot of force in their dancing hold.
If you add some weight here, it might not feel so much different.
My favourite way of leading and following has a different concept:
The leader invites the follower to do a movement, then waits for
the follower to start this movement and acompanies her in the movement.
Here, the follower has to stand on her own feet and walks for herself -
the leader doesn't move her around. But this only works fine, if both
are on their own axis, supporting their own weight.
I principle, you don't even need to tough the other for this kind of
leading/following - in fact, you can lead the other with your eyes only
and this works amazingly good!
Now both can relax their arms and shoulders and only use them for
embracing the other and enjoying the feeling of dancing together.
If you start to put some weight into your dancing hold, you start
to leave your axis and as a follower you can't really walk on your
own, you will again need the leader to move you, at least a bit.
Plus you get much less sensitive for signals, when your muscles
are tense.
Well, perhaps this was a bit long and left the subject of
sore feet a bit, but for me, this topic of 'leaning onto your partner'
is of great importance. The longer I dance, the less I like to
play leaning post. It distracts me from enjoying the dance, and
makes my shoulder muscles hurt.
Enjoy tango dancing!
Garrit
PS I have a new domain name for my Cyber-Tango pages:
www.cyber-tango.com
________________________________________________________
Garrit Fleischmann
email: fleischm @uni-frankfurt.de
Witze: http://www.uni-frankfurt.de/~garrit/jokes.html
Tango: http://www.cyber-tango.com/
________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:29:55 -0400
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= A. Contreras" <jcontrer @CMET.NET>
Subject: Re: sign posts vs. leaning posts (Re: Sore Feet: Ouch)
There are lots of styles, from pyramidal shape to inverted pyramid shape,
each one having his value, but common a fact in any style is that you
have to enjoy and feel comfortable. To achieve that, nobody has to
support the weight of the partner, each one has to manage his own weight.
Another concept is to help or assist the partner in some moments or
figures that requires it, like molinetes, or giros (turns), a small
instant during the pivot of the backwards ochos, and so on.
It is easy to confuse this two concepts. I think it was important to
mention it to contribute to the enrichment of the discussion.
Saludos
Jos=E9 A. Contreras
Jacques Gauthier wrote:
> > > I suggest that you let the man absorb some of your weight. My
> > > teacher tells men in group lessons that our left hand has one
> > > purpose only: "to be the woman's private leaning post."
>
> One teacher I had made us do 3 exercises. One was for
> the man to dance with the woman while holding her with
> only with his right arm. This was to illustrate that the
> left arm wasn't necessary. The second exercise was for
> the man to dance with the woman holding her only with
> the left arm. This was to illustrate that the right arm isn't
> needed. The third exercise was to for the man to dance
> with the woman without holding her since apparently
> neither arms were necessary.
>
> It was an interesting exercise.
>
> Jacques
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:27:01 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: What to do about Sore Feet
Hi everyone:
Susan and I discovered that rolling her feet on a wide-mouthed glass
bottle filled with ice and a little bit of water greatly helped reduce
pain in her feet after dancing. I found it helpful too, but I do not
wear instruments of torture (high heels) to dance.
Like Garritt I am not all that happy to have women lean all over me to
relieve their foot pain. As Garritt wrote:
>Try to dance 3 dances with a partner who puts some of >his/her weight
>on your arm, and you will soon have a nice cramp in your shoulder
>muscles. (I had this lots of times while learning to dance.) ...
>There is another problem aside from making dancing uncomfortable,
>when you put your weight onto your partner: It might give you some
>problems with leading and following.
In my experience, a leader (follower) who shifts his (her) weight onto
his (her) partner is likely to prevent his (her) partner from properly
executing her (his) portion of the dance. Brute force quickly
replaces finesse.
I agree with Garritt:
>My favourite way of leading and following has a different concept:
>The leader invites the follower to do a movement, then waits for the
>follower to start this movement and acompanies her in the movement.
>Here, the follower has to stand on her own feet and walks for herself
>- the leader doesn't move her around. But this only works fine, if
>both are on their own axis, supporting their own weight.
>Now both can relax their arms and shoulders and only use them for
>embracing the other and enjoying the feeling of dancing together.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:49:16 -0700
From: Greg Olsen at Work <golsen @NONSTOP.COM>
Subject: More on feet
Dear tango-l,
In the last two months I have trippled the amount of dancing I am doing.
I now dance 6 nights a week and have begun developing thick callouses
on my feet, particularly on the balls of my feet and big toes. How do
you remove them and keep them from developing?
Happy trails,
Greg Olsen
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:21:55 -0700
From: Michael Proctor <mproctor @LOKI.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: New 4th Friday milonga with Nora, Redwood City CA
Hi Tango Clubbers,
Our dear teacher Nora Dinzlebacher is hosting a new Milonga
starting THIS Friday in Redwood City.
"4th FRIDAY * LA MILONGA DE NORA Beginning April 23.
Alhambra Ballroom, 835 Main (at Broadway), REDWOOD CITY. 510 482-2524."
This place has a large floor. There are no times announced so I am
guessing that there is a class at 7pm - 9pm and then dancing from 9 - 12.
Check here for the map
http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=835+Main&csz=Redwood+city&Get+Ma
p=Get+Map
******************
Don't forget this weekend there is the Gavito Workshop in Los Altos
and
A TANGO EVENING IN SANTA CRUZ * SATURDAY, APRIL 24, 7 pm Live music by Flor
de Tango, dancers Marcelo & Analia will perform and teach followed by
Milonga., Hall of United Church of Christ - First Congretional Church, 900
High St., SANTA CRUZ. $13 IA, $16ATD. 831-476-9186, 831- 372-4062,
ferfilip @hotmail.com
The Map
http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=900+High+St&csz=Santa+Cruz%2C+ca
&Get+Map=Get+Map
*****************
TANGO SHOW
The show TANGOING is now playing in the city.
This show was on for one night in Mt View last month. They have now added
two more couples. In the words of a trusted and very critical friend, they
are incrediable dancers. So in additiion to Forever Tango you could
consider seeing them.
TANGOING * Tango Show * Thru May 16th. The Alcazar Theatre, 650 Geary
Street at Jones, SAN FRANCISCO. $30, $35, $40 depending
on day and seat.Charge by Phone: 415.441.4042.+
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:38:10 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: tangoing
I keep reading about a show called "TANGOING"
Can any one put me in contact with this show. I would like to present this to
Belkin Productions in Cleveland and maybe bring this show to Cleveland.
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:38:42 -0600
From: Brian Salisbury <bsalisb @PUBSAFETY.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Leaning Post
Garrit responded:
Just a word about 'the man as a leaning post':
> My
> teacher tells men in group lessons that our left hand has one
> purpose only: "to be the woman's private leaning post."
My idea about the dancing hold is much different from this.
When I dance close to a woman (and that is what I normaly do
in Tango - as close as possible ;-)...
Yes! but it seems only gallant (and in the spirit of tango) to provide
the "leaning post" for neophyte followers. They haven't developed
the finely tuned muscle coordination necessary for keeping balance
during "step-collect-pivot-step" etc. but still want to have an
enjoyable experience during their initial forays. I do see the danger
of forming habits of dependance [sic] that cause problems later on,
but given the choice of being correct or showing the lady a good
time...
Brian Salisbury
Wasatch Tango
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:01:46 -0400
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Leaning Post
From: Brian Salisbury Friday, April 23, 1999 6:38 PM
> ... it seems only gallant (and in the spirit of tango) to provide
> the "leaning post" for neophyte followers. They haven't developed
> the finely tuned muscle coordination necessary for keeping balance...
If a little extra force is need (with either hand) to help a partner keep
her (or his!) balance at any point in the dance, that will come
automatically as a response to the need, particularly if there is good
frame and contact in the first place. But this has nothing to do with
preventing or relieving sore feet, which was the original context.
If a woman weighs, say, 120 pounds, then, when she supports her weight on
the ball of one foot, without assistance, that metatarsal is going to
experience a 120-lb. force against the floor. It will be somewhat greater
than that when she is pushing off with that foot. The acceleration she is
imparting to her body through the metatarsal's contact with the floor adds
to the normal, "g" force.
Any thought of being able to provide sufficient support with the
gentleman's left hand to relieve that force is evidence of a creative
imagination. What fraction of 120-plus pounds is that hand going to lift?
Maybe 3 lbs.? or 5?
Better to rely on Dr. Scholls.
Tangringo
____________________
Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
Harriman, NY
oldzeid @frontiernet.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
===================
Visit the Hudson Valley Tango Web Site at
http://www.nycdc.com/hvtango
P.S.: I have no financial interest in Dr. Scholls.
P.P.S.: If you really tried to support your partner's weight with you left
arm, you would BOTH have sore arms by the end of the evening. You from
lifting, and she from bearing down. You know, that action and reaction
thing.
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:01:39 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Balance and Leaning
I've been very interested in this discussion. When I started tango two+
years ago it was with a partner who is a very good swing dancer and was an
intermediate tango dancer. He insisted that our dancing be based on
strength. We leaned hard into each other, and pushed hard with our extended
hands. Many times he would insist that I push harder at his left hand, and
many times I would be frustrated - I've been working out for 12 years, but
as a woman, there is a limit to the strength I could bring to this movement.
Other women commented on his lead, (not positively) but, since he was my
partner, I worked hard to accommodate these "rules". Then one day Mama
Pugliese came to town and in a group class danced with my partner. She was
horrified. And quickly told him he could NOT push or lean on a woman this
way. I was SOOOO grateful! What he would not hear from me, he could hear
from her. We began to work on being our own balance.
Then Lorena Ermocilda (sp?) came to town and gave a wonderful class for
women. I watched her smoothly move herself across the floor in a fluid line
of front and then back ochos. Clearly, she did not require a partner to
execute her movements. I immediately set my goal to improve my balance to
do this. I started standing in front of the practice mirror and doing
repetitions of front and back ochos, on my own, the length of the room. I
noticed no one else did this, but I also noticed my balance improve a lot!
In opportunities to dance with Pablo Veron, Fabian Salas, Metin Yazir and
other visiting tango masters, one of the common aspects of their lead is
that it is feather light. The extended hands barely touch each other. The
hand at my back holds securely but without pressure. Leading is always in
invitation, never a direction.
I stopped dancing with my original partner a year ago, and began to dance
differently. Leaders, often way above my level of dance, consistently tell
me I am very light to lead. (I am not a small woman.) That is a compliment
that is very dear to me, as I put in a lot of time before the mirror walking
back and forth. Now I know how precious good balance is, and have
confidence I did not have before. My new partner lets me know right away if
I get lazy and lean on him - he hates it!
I believe even beginner followers should be encouraged to balance their own
weight, and leaders should be encouraged to not push or pull us off balance!
That is my current tango 2 cents.
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:02:18 -0700
From: Pat Cummings <drpat @AHT.COM>
Subject: Re: Leaning Post
One of my teachers, Michael Espinoza (el Indio), explained that the =
"tango lean" is an illusion. He used to illustrate it by standing =
erect, then rocking his entire body forward at the ankles only. The =
line of his body was thus preserved, but HE kept responsibility for his =
own balance.
His partner likewise did the same illusory lean forward (made easier by =
her high heels, of course), meeting him in a close embrace that =
resembled an upside-down Y. Often in instructing us in this, he and =
Yolanda would step away from each other while keeping the "lean" in =
place. This made it obvious that leaning was not a transference of =
weight to the partner, but simply an elegant body position.
As for "catching" your partner when a slip or bobble occurs, it's true =
the man can't hope to hold up a 120-pound (or even a 90-pound) woman =
with one hand. He can, however, move slightly "in the direction of the =
skid" to relieve her balance. If the woman is off balance because she's =
anticipating or back-leading, he might try slowing down to "force" her =
to settle between steps. This may also help his own balance.
It's all part of the subtle, silent communication that takes place to =
the rhythm of the tango...
--Pat Cummings
--(of Pat&Ken)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:41:41 -0600
From: Robin Young <rdcuer @MICRON.NET>
Subject: Re: Leaning Post
Ah Yes, the thinning metatarsal pad pain can be helped on some feet by
wearing a clear non-medicated Callus Pad made by Dr. Scholl. It is a
clear gel-type cushion, adheres to the skin, is washable, costs about
$4.00 and lasts about 3-4 months when worn to every dance. I use them.
Robin, RN
"Walter M. Kane" wrote:
>
> From: Brian Salisbury Friday, April 23, 1999 6:38 PM
>
> > ... it seems only gallant (and in the spirit of tango) to provide
> > the "leaning post" for neophyte followers. They haven't developed
> > the finely tuned muscle coordination necessary for keeping balance...
>
> If a little extra force is need (with either hand) to help a partner keep
> her (or his!) balance at any point in the dance, that will come
> automatically as a response to the need, particularly if there is good
> frame and contact in the first place. But this has nothing to do with
> preventing or relieving sore feet, which was the original context.
>
> If a woman weighs, say, 120 pounds, then, when she supports her weight on
> the ball of one foot, without assistance, that metatarsal is going to
> experience a 120-lb. force against the floor. It will be somewhat greater
> than that when she is pushing off with that foot. The acceleration she is
> imparting to her body through the metatarsal's contact with the floor adds
> to the normal, "g" force.
>
> Any thought of being able to provide sufficient support with the
> gentleman's left hand to relieve that force is evidence of a creative
> imagination. What fraction of 120-plus pounds is that hand going to lift?
> Maybe 3 lbs.? or 5?
>
> Better to rely on Dr. Scholls.
>
> Tangringo
> ____________________
> Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
> Harriman, NY
> oldzeid @frontiernet.net
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
> http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
> Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
> ===================
> Visit the Hudson Valley Tango Web Site at
> http://www.nycdc.com/hvtango
>
> P.S.: I have no financial interest in Dr. Scholls.
>
> P.P.S.: If you really tried to support your partner's weight with you left
> arm, you would BOTH have sore arms by the end of the evening. You from
> lifting, and she from bearing down. You know, that action and reaction
> thing.
--
IdahoWebSite http://netnow.micron.net/~ryoung
"People don't stop dancing because they get too old;
People get too old because they stop dancing." ANON
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 23:04:42 -0700
From: Richard deSousa <m1aport @PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Tango Technique
Dear List:
I am a beginner (I started three months ago) and I had an interesting experience last Wednesday evening when I took a class from a couple from Argentina who shall remain anonymous. The male teacher explained to us that to lead a woman the leader should use his hands (very subtly) to manipulate the direction he wants her to go, i.e., slightly pulling her right hand outwards is suppose to tell her move her right leg
outwards to the right, pushing her hand towards the line of dance is suppose to tell her to move her right leg back, and pulling her hand opposite to the line of dance is suppose to tell her to move her right leg forward; the leader's right hand is used similarly for leading the follower's left leg; by pulling her sideways, forwards, and backwards (this is more difficult since there is nothing to hold on to!!). If
I have learned one thing about tango dancing from lessons I have taken these past three months, it would seem that this method violates some of the fundamental rules I was taught in leading the follower. Am I wrong? Any comments?
Rich deSousa
End of TANGO-L Digest - 23 Apr 1999 to 24 Apr 1999
**************************************************