The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 2 Apr 1999
to 3 Apr 1999
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Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:00:04 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 2 Apr 1999 to 3 Apr 1999
There are 14 messages totalling 533 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Easter week-end
2. CITA in Buenos Aires and a query
3. Bologna Venice Florence Rome (2)
4. NEEDED INFO on TANGO CDs purchasing
5. On "asking"
6. Visit to Buenos Aires
7. Lifting Spirits and Partner Grabs (originally: invitations &
protocol)
8. tango manners
9. Asking & Responding
10. On "asking" -Reply
11. Fwd: Tango auf Kreta (2)
12. TANGO-L Digest - 1 Apr 1999 to 2 Apr 1999
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:07:51 -0500
From: Robert Blais <rblais12 @ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Easter week-end
Hello List
Thank you very much to all those who answered my request for a place to go
this week-end. I've decided to go to the fair city of Ithaca. Matej Oresic,
the godfather of tango in Ithaca has laid out a very interresting week-end
of tango and swing for us.
Happy easter
Robert Blais, Montreal
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:06:22 -0400
From: Nitin Kibe <NKibe @IFC.ORG>
Subject: CITA in Buenos Aires and a query
Greetings, list.
I too have just returned from this event, which was indeed very well organised.
To add to the earlier posts, being in Buenos Aires gives one the opportunity to
attend a host of local (i.e. non-CITA) milongas, practicas and classes. I
attended three milongas with classes preceding them (Nino Bien at Centro Region
Leonesa on a Thursday night, La Viruta at Armenia 1366 on Saturday and
Confiteria Ideal at Suipacha on Monday afternoon). Each seemed to have a
different flavour and attract a different group: but all were immensely
enjoyable and the classes in two of them were of very high quality. According to
the announcements in La Tangauta and in B A Tango, there seemed to be about 5-10
milongas every day Sunday - Thursday, with the numbers going up to 15-20 on
Fridays and Saturdays. Nino Bien had about 500 people and La Viruta 700 (orders
of magnitude). Confiteria Ideal (on a Monday afternoon) about 150, but picking
up when I left at 5pm to catch my flight back.
Washington DC seems even tamer than usual now....
Regards to all.
Nitin Kibe
PS: A query. I have two versions of the milonga "De Pura Cepa", one by Fresedo
and the other by Troilo, but neither seems to be the one used by Omar Vega in
his milonga classes at CITA and in his tape sold by Trenner. Who has made that
version?
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:38:17 -0800
From: Margaret Friedman <margfriedman @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Bologna Venice Florence Rome
Ciao amici italiani,
Staro a Bologna, Venezia, Firenze e Roma durante aprile e maggio.
Apprezzerei dei suggerimenti di dove ballare in queste citta. Cerco dei
posti socevoli dove sara accettabile andare da sola. Ballo da quattro anni,
piu o meno.
Vi ringrazio mille volte!
Margaret Friedman
MargaretFriedman @hotmail.com
Seattle, Washington, USA
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:04:56 +0200
From: Matteo Nicolini <matteo.nicolini @TRANSPORT.ALSTOM.COM>
Subject: NEEDED INFO on TANGO CDs purchasing
I have been told of Mr. AKIHITO BABA selling TANGO musical CDs via internet or
something similar.
Is there anyone helping me with AKIHITO BABA email address??
Thank you and merry Easter.
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:44:07 -0600
From: Karen Whitesell <kglass @IPA.NET>
Subject: On "asking"
I have read that women give sex for love,
and men give love for sex.
I think there is a tango story here.
A woman asks a man for the opportunity to dance.
A man asks a woman to dance the opportunity.
I don't know what the hell I have said, but, if I ask the man to follow,
it sure messes with my equations.
Karen
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 11:04:53 -0800
From: Barbara Alexius <taitango @IO.COM>
Subject: Visit to Buenos Aires
Hola!
I have just returned from BA where I participated in CITA. My experience
there was a memorable one. There were several reasons for that--one, I
believe, was staying at the home of Maria Teresa Lopez. For a small fee I
had a bedroom, bath and use of her kitchen and living area for 10 days.
But, most importantly, I went to the milongas with her and Janis (who also
lives there). I was able to experience BA from the local perspective. I
danced, but since I am a beginner by Argentine standards, I observed a lot.
Maria is warm and friendly and Janis was very helpful with regard to
customs, teachers, etc. I also met interesting people from all over the
world who were staying in her home as well.
A second reason for my positive experience was that I met and heard musician
Miguel de Caro. Perhaps some of you have heard his CD Tangofuerte. I
particularly enjoy his quartet's rendition of Oblivion. (I have practically
worn it out!) At any rate Miguel plays on Saturday evenings at 9:00 PM
(they actually started playing at 11:00). His quartet includes bandoneon,
keyboard, bass, and Miguel on saxophone. I would label his music jazz
tango. They played at Club Celta (you can probably find the address in the
phone book). It is well worth the visit.
I certainly enjoyed CITA and felt that Fabian and Gustavo did an excellent
job, especially for the first effort.
If you have not visited BA, I would strongly urge you to consider doing so.
There is nothing like the real thing!
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:16:32 +0200
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Bologna Venice Florence Rome
Hi Margaret, and all tango tourists:
the Tango Italia server at: www.aaanetserv.com/tango/tangoitalia.html
is where to look for tango places to go and people to meet in Italy.
Ciao,
Enrico
Original Message-----
From: Margaret Friedman <margfriedman @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: Bologna Venice Florence Rome
>Ciao amici italiani,
>
>Staro a Bologna, Venezia, Firenze e Roma durante aprile e maggio.
>Apprezzerei dei suggerimenti di dove ballare in queste citta. Cerco dei
>posti socevoli dove sara accettabile andare da sola. Ballo da quattro
anni,
>piu o meno.
>
>Vi ringrazio mille volte!
>
>Margaret Friedman
>MargaretFriedman @hotmail.com
>Seattle, Washington, USA
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:38:16 -0500
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Lifting Spirits and Partner Grabs (originally: invitations &
protocol)
Oscar Wright writes (wrongly): Friday, April 02, 1999 11:58 AM
> .. I recoil at so many rules and civility ... if you see a
> woman that you absolutely must dance with, to hell with it, go ask her to
dance and don't give a damn who is angry.
I'm not sure what will mess up a milonga more, some snatcher-grabber with
that cave-man attitude, or the guy who always thinks he's auditioning for
Forever Tango in the middle of the floor. My guess is that they're likely
to be the same person. The feedback that I hear from women is that they
appreciate neither type.
> At the end of the evening, repair to a table with a jug of a good red
wine and drink and drown the pain, the stupidity, the illusory nature of
life. This, in my opinion is how life should be lived.
Ah, my disillusioned, passionate friend. How about you stay home and drink
your wine and contemplate the pain and stupidity of life at your kitchen
table, so the rest of us can enjoy tango?
Tangringo
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 21:08:42 +0200
From: "navajo.r" <navajo.r @BERLIN.SNAFU.DE>
Subject: Re: tango manners
Fernandez Eduardo schrieb:
> So. To me is not a bad dancer the one who threaten the community. He/she can
> learn. But can people learn manners? I am skeptical on that. So, The only
> way to stop the bad manners is to say "NO, I don't dance", to the people
> that insist in that behavior.
>
> Eduardo
Youa are sertainly right Edwardo,
come along to Europe to Berlinthere is some other attitudes over there,
naturally you can come across everything, but I think the principle of yours is
very much in use here.
best wishes
navajo.r @berlin.snafu.de
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:31:12 -0600
From: Yardiel Fuentes <fuentes @EECS.TULANE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Asking & Responding
It may be appropriate to remember that attending a milonga automatically
implies that a set of manners, cultural aspects or tempers are NOT uniform..
The point being is that a wide expectrum of cultures, protocols,
degres of "politeness" (however may be defined) are NOT left outside
of the milonga - So, the only "degree of politeness" that should be
expected and given by everybody is the same that you would expect and give
as a human being.
Everybody should have the freedom
(yes,,, freedom!) to accept/terminate/deny a dance or to ask for a dance
with no further implications made. If the requester wants to know the
reason why he/she was rejected it is always possible to ask - I think it is
benefitial not to take it personal if is not made explicitly personal -
gosh ... if you are deny a dance because somebody does not like to dance
with you (and you were told so explicitly), simply asking more may (I say
may!) give you a chance to learn and improve if it something you think you
should improve.
The above topic is an interesting one since I have noticed how cultural
backgrounds and personalities are always present in a given milonga ...
They are present every moment even at the time you ask for dance and the
time you decline/accept a dance. I can see how by ignoring such
"cultural diversity", many miscontrued messages could be concluded.
It is somewhat unrealistic or naive to think that all cultural protocols
should be modelled after the "Buenos Aires" protocol - I clearly see the
differences between the protocols of AT-dancers in the United States
west coast and the AT-dancers in the US east coast - and both are unique,
great, and worth learning from !
Dario From Jersey,
>
> Regarding Steve Hoffman's post about asking to dance and the posible
> replies...
>
> Steve, it was nice to read an opinionated post (and yes it was long, long
> eonugh to be not read by many)
>
> Aristotelis humor missed me last time, this time it was right on the money.
> Good job.
>
> I do not agree in principal, Melinda's response "just say no". I am not saying
> make up an excuse if you don't wish to dance. But do say your reason. How else
> you can avoid misintrepretations. Don't make it a gessing game. Does it mean
> you don't wish to dance now, not to this song, not tonight, not with one
> specific person, until when .. ever, why ? Someone with pride, like me, will
> never ask again to dance with that person, and if that is the intention then
> it succeeds. What if that is not the intention ? Just as we don't have to be
> friends with everyone, we don't have to dance with everyone. But just out of
> curtesy to a fellow tango dancer we have to be polite. Other than intolerable
> situations, may be, even, dance a song. How else we are going to promote
> tango, not for the sake of tango itself but for the sake of our own selfish
> enjoyment.
>
> I agree with the fact that not every "let's dance" proposition should have an
> automatic acceptance. Why would anyone be offended to hear "I really want to
> finish this conversation first. May be later ?" if they interupt a
> conversation ? Live and let live. We can be very civil about this ( no
> bloodshed ). Some people will ask and some people will respond. Just be honest
> about it.
>
> On the other hand I don't agree with Steve that women should not ask men to
> dance. Just as women have the freedom to be selective , they also have the
> freedom to ask. With the same token, men have the choice to accept or decline
> - again saying out loud why they do not wish to dance i.e. "I really don't
> enjoy milongas much", "I do not feel comfortable to dance milongas. yet"...
>
> Steve writes-
> "But, in general, I think it is just out of the character of tango for a
> woman to ask a man. Yes, I know American culture is better than any other,
> and that the American way is superior to any other form of behavior or
> values (or do I?), "
> Do you know why American way is superior ? It is based on freedom; choice,
> action, decision.. you can do anything you want as long as you don't interfere
> with anyone (violate rights of someone else), which also implies whatever
> people do together is on a voluntary basis. If I value dancing with someone
> (who happens to be having a conversation with someone else) more than sitting
> and watching I should, and would ask that person to dance with me. It is up to
> her to decide what she values more: to dance with me or to remain in the
> conversation. And if she choses the option she values less then there is a
> problem in her judgement system. But it is not rational for me to sacrifice
> my joy of dancing with that person just in case she MAY prefer to talk
> instead of dancing with me.
>
> That's my bit...
> Jak
> jkarako @bailatango.com
> www.bailatango.com
>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:40:32 -0800
From: DIANE CLARK <CLARK @LDBB.COM>
Subject: On "asking" -Reply
Thank you, Karen, for reaching a point I think we both share.
Someone once asked my mother, "What kind of a man do you like?"
and she replled, "A man who likes me and who treats me well".
A man's voice and eyes directed toward me inviting me to dance, is
much more appealing than for me to become the aggressor. I don't want
to lead or be in control or direct a man. I want a man to be a man. His
behavior, his manner alone will tell me if there is interest or connection.
If a man is rude, his manner tells me a lot about him. If he is kind and
masculine, he is the only man in the room.
The problem in this choice is that if I don't ask men to dance, then I may
not dance very much, and it has nothing to do with whether I am
attractive or a good dancer. It has do with with whether a man fees
comfortable with a woman. So, I have become more of an observer.
You have to slow down in order to see -- slow down in your needs.
Certainly it would be wonderful to have a partner. With my dance
background, I thought I could move into tango gracefully. Yet, I look at
what is before me and much of it is fantasy.
Consumed by longing, the man, the woman
and I
continue
to hold on.
Possibly
tonight
I'll dance.
Diane
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 04:47:03 +0200
From: mark <mark @FARM.DE>
Subject: Fwd: Tango auf Kreta
hi list
heres a message for tango travellers (german, can anyone translate?)
>Tango auf Kreta 1. bis 29. Mai 1999 mit Michael Domke und Gerrit =
Sch=FCler.
>Im S=FCden Kretas - in Plakias - in einem kleinen Hotel mit =
wundersch=F6ner
>Tanzterrasse und Blick auf das Meer, k=F6nnt Ihr mit uns eine oder =
mehrere
>Tango Wochen verbringen.
>Der Unterricht wird sehr individuell gestaltet, die Gr=F6=DFe der Gruppen =
ist
>auf 10 Paare begrenzt. Der Reisepreis betr=E4gt DM 820,-- bzw. DM =
740,--.
>Im Preis enthalten sind: 15 Std. Unterricht, 5 Std. Practica - =
Unterkunft im
>Doppelzimmer - sehr gutes Fr=FChst=FCck und 4x Abendessen und das =
Abschlu=DFessen.
>Nat=FCrlich werden wir jede Nacht zur TangoNacht werden lassen !
>Weitere Informationen, Anmeldung im "La Milonga" Tel. 0421-442284, Fax.
>0421-447714, e-mail. Kontakt @lamilonga.de
happy easter!
mark
|......Mark von Rahden
|......farm. concept & design gmbh
|......http://www.is-bremen.de/~tocco/Tango/
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 06:50:11 -0800
From: Hayri Erenli <mhayrie @ESCORTNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Tango auf Kreta
Mark wrote :
>heres a message for tango travellers (german, can anyone >translate?)
Tango in Crete from 1 until 29th of Mai with Michael Domke and
Gerrit Sch=FCler in the South of Crete - in Palakias - in a small hotel w=
ith a
wonderful dance terrace and a sea view. You can spend
one or more weeks with us. The tuition is organized on a very
personal basis and the size of the groups is is limited to 10
pairs. The total cost of the trip is 720-840 German Marks.
This price includes 15 hours of lessons, 5 hours of practica,
accomodation in a double bed room, very good quality
breakfast, 4 dinners and the closing dinner. Naturally, every
evening will be transformed into a tango evening. For more
information and registering in "La Milonga", call (49) 421-442284 (phone)=
,
(49) 421-447714 (fax), e-mail. Kontakt @lamilonga.de
>Tango auf Kreta 1. bis 29. Mai 1999 mit Michael Domke und Gerrit Sch=FC=
ler.
>Im S=FCden Kretas - in Plakias - in einem kleinen Hotel mit wundersch=F6=
ner
>Tanzterrasse und Blick auf das Meer, k=F6nnt Ihr mit uns eine oder mehre=
re
>Tango Wochen verbringen.
>Der Unterricht wird sehr individuell gestaltet, die Gr=F6=DFe der Gruppe=
n ist
>auf 10 Paare begrenzt. Der Reisepreis betr=E4gt DM 820,-- bzw. DM 740,=
--.
>Im Preis enthalten sind: 15 Std. Unterricht, 5 Std. Practica - Unterku=
nft
im
>Doppelzimmer - sehr gutes Fr=FChst=FCck und 4x Abendessen und das
Abschlu=DFessen.
>Nat=FCrlich werden wir jede Nacht zur TangoNacht werden lassen !
>Weitere Informationen, Anmeldung im "La Milonga" Tel. 0421-442284, Fax.
>0421-447714, e-mail. Kontakt @lamilonga.de
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:07:15 -0800
From: "Rebecca Partridge (650) 723-6709" <PARTRIDGE_R @HOSP.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 1 Apr 1999 to 2 Apr 1999
Since my name was mentioned in Steve's posting, I feel I should offer my point
of view on the subject of a lady asking a man to dance. Steve acknowledged that
he appreciated being asked to dance when he was novice but now he prefers to do
the asking since he has become a more accomplished dancer. I know several of my
favorite partners have undergone this transformation in their attitude so here
are a few thoughts on the subject.
This logic makes it a bit difficult for the ladies to determine when a
particular man has achieved his self-determined level of proficiency or
expertise warranting a shift in her behavior from "it is okay to ask him to
dance" to "it is not okay to ask him." In addition, I have found that men vary
greatly with regard to their attitude about being asked to dance and that this
variation is not reliably correlated with their skill level in the dance.
While in Argentina last October (with Nora, Katy, Ingrid and Judy), Nora and
Graciela tutored us on the technique of offering and/or accepting an invitation
to dance by making eye contact and sustaining the eye contact in a certain way.
Since I am basically a shy person with strangers, I found it rather difficult to
"stare" at men I did not know. After several evenings of practicing the
technique while demurely sipping Sidra at various milongas, I mastered the
skill. From that point on, I was generally successful at tacitly luring
selected men into dancing with me. However, reliance upon the "lure him with
your eyes" technique reduced the amount of dancing buy 50% or more because of
the logistics of waiting for the right moment to catch someone's eye. It has
been my experience that the U.S. tradition of allowing both men and women to
invite someone to dance allows both sexes to dance much more.
I am not entirely convinced that there is a substantial difference between the
Argentine and the American approaches regarding who (which sex) is permitted to
initiate an invitation to dance. The primary difference seems to be that in
Argentina the invitation is unspoken and offered from a safe distance. If this
invitation ("with the eyes") is declined, the person issuing the invitation is
protected from the embarrassment of being rejected in a public fashion and
having to walk away alone.
I would also like to comment on another subject raised by Steve. The issue is
someone interrupting a conversation of a man and a woman to offer an invitation
to dance. I agree with Steve completely!! If a man and a woman are engrossed in
a private dialogue, it is impolite for someone to interrupt to ask one of them
for a dance. It is noteworthy that men (not women) are the usual culprits in
this scenario. However, from the lady's point of view, I can say it takes a bit
of courage to decline such invitations, because once you have declined, the
fellow may never ask you again. And,if one observes the men-only rule regarding
who can ask for a dance, the lady may never dance with that fellow again because
he won't ask her again. Therefore, I favor alternative of offering to save a
dance for "intruder" later in the evening after the conversation is concluded.
Rebecca
End of TANGO-L Digest - 2 Apr 1999 to 3 Apr 1999
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