The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 1 Apr 1999
to 2 Apr 1999
Return-Path: owner-TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 03:00:02 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 1 Apr 1999 to 2 Apr 1999
There are 17 messages totalling 1110 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Solo Tango Settings
2. If Tangueros where like Greek Drivers
3. Ive Simard's in Instanbul
4. <No subject given>
5. Pocho Pizarro in Berlin
6. Julio Balmaceda & Corina de la Rosa Workshop in Denver 7-17 April
7. CITA Gran Final Gran...
8. TANGO-L Digest - 31 Mar 1999 to 1 Apr 1999 (3)
9. Asking & Responding
10. tango manners
11. invitations & protocol (3)
12. This Tuesday Tango Magic in NYC.
13. Lifting Spirits and Partner Grabs (originally: invitations & protocol)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:56:45 +0200
From: "Gabriella C. Marino" <gcmarino @IOL.IT>
Subject: Solo Tango Settings
Since I've received at least 10 requests asking me about Solo Tango, I'm
posting the information I found out so that you can all see whether you can
get it too.
In Europe it's broadcast by satellite Eutelsat Hotbird 13 degrees east. I
don't know whether you can see it in the States, you should try searching
for Solo Tango on the Internet and see whether it's offered as part of a
package with other channels. In Italy it's unencrypted, which means it's not
a pay tv. You need a digital satellite system to receive it since it's not
broadcast analogically.
These are the settings:
MPEG 2 MCPC
12,092 GHZ
Pol. H
Symbol rate 27500
FEC 2/3
Once I entered them I had to tell my receiver to re-scan for channels and it
found Solo Tango and about 5 other Spanish-language channels (great for
improving my Castellano!).
Hope this helps!
Gabriella
Parma, Italy
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:46:55 -0500
From: Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: If Tangueros where like Greek Drivers
Well, try to experience driving in Buenos Aires ...
One can also look at the "problem" from the different point of view.
Driving in Ithaca/NY makes me mad because people are so excessively pleasant
and at the same time slow. When the green light turns on, it takes another
minute for the guy ahead of me to figure out the change. The whole traffic moves
like in slow motion, eventhough there is really no reason for this to happen,
and it feels like people do not really wish to move. What I am missing is the
momentum, the desire to move, like one can experience when driving in most of
Europe.
I am telling this because in tango there is the same problem. One needs to have
a desire to move. Tango needs the momentum, because the "drive" is in the music.
Personaly, I think it is a lot easier to discipline the "careless driver" (in
tango) and make him a great dancer than get somebody to move who is afread of
doing it.
Once I had a great tango student who got his first speeding ticket soon after
starting to learn tango... Of course, this is nothing to be proud of, and
definitely with experience one becomes a "smart driver", but the point is
without getting this desire to move out one cannot do the tango.
Best,
Matej
http://lancelot.bio.cornell.edu/matej/tango/
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:29:50 EST
From: Ive Simard <MundoTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Ive Simard's in Instanbul
Dears L Members,
El Mundo Del Tango in San Diego, California, would like to inform you that Ive
Simard's (from Los Simards) President of the A.T.M.A. (Argentine Tango
Master's Association) will be in Instanbul, Turkey from May 27, 1999 to June
6th, 1999.
If anyone in that area is interested in having a workshop of Tango, Milonga,
Vals Cruzado and Pecho Argentino (Milonguero style) Ive ill be more than happy
to conduct some. He can teach at any level from beginners to top class
professionals, teachers or stage dancers. He will also be avalible for
private instruction.
Also, while Ive is there if anyone would like to set up a meeting with him to
learn more about the A.F.T.U. (America First Tango University, Diner Theatre
Show and Milonga Mall) please contact El Mundo Del Tango at the following:
MundoTango @aol.com
Thank you for your time and respones.
Respectfully,
Nancy G. Walker
Office Manger
El Mundo Del Tango
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:22:02 +0200
From: "Holger A. Bock, El GRAZioso" <Holger.Bock2 @INFINEON.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>
Hola !
After changing my job and after some time I am back to Tango-L now.
Thanks to everybody who asked for what has happened to our server.
We are happy to be able to inform you, that the contents of the Tango GRAZioso Tango-Server have been moved to a new site successfully.
The new adress is:
http://www.info-graz.at/tango
Please visit our new site and update your bookmarks. We apologize for any inconvenience during the last months.
In addition to that, the directory structure has changed a bit, to improve our update service. Therefore it might be possible, that changing the domain only, would not be sufficient for special documents in some cases. This applies especially to our musicians pages, which have been moved down into a special subdirectory called musicians. An extra index-page will be linked to the homepage ASAP.
Hope we see you soon in Graz,
besos a todos,
Holger, El GRAZioso
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:37:53 +0200
From: Raimund Schlie <kbb @PODEWIL.DE>
Subject: Pocho Pizarro in Berlin
Hi List,
his an announcement of workshops given by Pocho Pizarro & Yvonne
Meissner on april 24 & 25 1999 in Berlin. Pocho Pizarro (Buenos Aires)
is one of the great maestros of the older generation of dancers like
Copes, Todaro or Arquimbau. With a difference of around 10 years he is
relatively young therefore his dance is amazingly vital and always
surprising. After his successful tour with Yvonne Meissner (Amsterdam)
in 1998 he will teach again this year all over Europe. This is their
Berlin-premiere.
The classes of Pocho & Yvonne are integrating original, authentic
combinations & steps with movements of the whole body. The dance becomes
a fascinating experience through the connection with unexpected but very
logical torsions of the upper body. The interesting & beautyful material
of Pocho and the detailed explanations of Yvonne, the latter based on
the method of Susanna Miller, guarantee unique & successfull lessons.
Both followers & leaders are challenged to deal with the quality of
their movements. Pocho speaks castillano, Yvonne english and german.
The schedule:
Dates: April 24/25 1999
Classes:
Tango (medium level) 3 to 4:30 pm
Tango (advanced level) 5 to 6:30 pm
Milonga (medium & avanced) 7 to 8:30 pm
Fee: DM 120 per person
Private classes: DM 100
Dates to be arranged
Venue:
Podewil
Klosterstr.68-70
10179 Berlin
Contact: ++49 30 85 60 34 15 (Raimund)
Ciao
R
--
*************************************************************
Raimund Schlie Podewil - KBB
Klosterstrasse 68-70 10179 Berlin
tel (work): +49+30-247 49 750
fax (work): +49+30-247 49 700
tel (home): +49+30-85 60 34 15
email: kbb @podewil.de
*************************************************************
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:59:42 EST
From: Michele Benigno <Mexben @AOL.COM>
Subject: Julio Balmaceda & Corina de la Rosa Workshop in Denver 7-17 April
The following is a list of workshops and events being offered by Julio and
Corina while they are in Denver:
APRIL 7TH: DENVER - DENVER TURNVEREIN - DOWNSTAIRS
7:3PM TO 9:PM - BALMACEDA BASICS FOR MILONGUERO TANGO/A CLASS FOR ALL LEVELS
THESE ARE THE ESSENTIAL TOOLS FOR MILONGUERO STYLE TANGO
9pm - 10:15pm Giro Basics / The Turn
The turn is an essential tool for mastery of the tango. It is dynamic for both
leader and follower. Get started on mastering the giro or simply sharpen or
correct the skills you already have.
APRIL 8TH: BOULDER - PEARL STREET STUDIO
7:3PM TO 9PM - MILONGUERO - A STEP BEYOND THE BASICS - FOR ALL LEVELS.
9pm - 10:15pm Giros with Sacadas
This class is a continuation of the Giro Basics. It will build on the tools
learned and add in the sacada.
APRIL 9TH - MERCURY CAFE 2199 CALIFORNIA ST., DENVER, CO
DINNER, MILONGA, SHOW & RAFFLE
JULIO AND CORINA WILL BE PERFORMING AT THE MERC.
THIS EVENT IS SPONSORED BY AMERICAN AIRLINES, MISSION FOODS AND ULTIMATE
TRAVEL SERVICE.
THERE WILL BE DOOR PRIZES AND THE GRAND PRIZE IS A ROUND TRIP TICKET TO BUENOS
AIRES.
APRIL 10TH: DENVER - DANCE COLLECTIVE
1PM TO 2PM - TWO CLASSES WILL BE GIVEN AT THE SAME TIME
CORINA'S ADORNMENTS AND ALLUREMENTS - PLAYING WITH FEMININE WILES OF THE TANGO
JULIO'S TIPO MILONGUERO - POWER TANGO FOR MEN. STRENGTH AND MACHISMO IN THE
DANCE.
APRIL 10TH: DENVER - DANCE COLLECTIVE
2:30PM TO 4PM - EL ENCUENTRO DE LOS DOS - THE MEETING OF THE COUPLE
4:15pm - 5:30pm
Advanced Tango - Tricks for Floor Navigation, Playing with the Power of
Stillness and Musicality
This class is for both leader and follower. Its intent is to help the leader
master the floor under all conditions & use stillness and musicality to their
benefit. It allows women to use adornments as a response to the man's leads.
APRIL 11TH: DENVER - DENVER TURNVEREIN
1PM TO 3PM - MILONGA AND VALS. FOR BEGINNERS AND THOSE NEW TO MILONGA AND VALS
RHYTHMS. IT IS ALSO A GOOD CLASS TO STRENGHTEN AND REFINE AQUIRED SKILLS.
3:15pm - 4:30pm
Rhythms and Figures for Vals
This class continues with Vals . This is the first time Colorado students will
have the chance to study the timing, rhythms and figures of Vals on an in-
depth level that J & C are recognized for in Argentina
APRIL 14TH: DENVER - DENVER TURNVEREIN
7:30PM TO 9:PM - ADVANCED TANGO/TANGO FANTASIA/STAGE. FOR STUDENTS THAT HAVE
MASTERED TANGO WALKING, GIROS, LEAD AND FOLLOW.
9pm - 10:15pm
The Boleo - Lead and Execution of the Boleo.
J & C have a unique study to the Boleo. Let them change your approach to this
often-difficult tango step.
APRIL 15TH: BOULDER - PEARL STREET STUDIO
7:30PM TO 9:PM - MILONGA AND VALS II
APRIL 16TH: FT. COLLINS - MASONIC TEMPLE
6PM - 7:15PM - BASIC TECHNIQUE FOR MEN AND WOMEN
7:30PM - 8:45PM - TANGO FANTASIA-STAGE
APRIL 17TH DENVER DENVER LATIN,BALLROOM & SWING
7PM - 8PM - STEPS FOR MILONGUEROS/AS - MILONGA FROM 8PM - MIDNIGHT
For more information call 303 333 2465 Michele Benigno or 303 860 9206 Andrea
Wagner.
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:34:44 -0300
From: Tijman Liliana <lady @FIBERTEL.COM.AR>
Subject: CITA Gran Final Gran...
Hola amigos de la TANGO_L
Esto es una pequenia cronica, sin pretensiones de nada, solo que tuve
ganas de hacer y compartir, con ustedes, y sobre todo felicitar a
Fabian Salas y Gustavo Naveira, por haver tomado la iniciativa de la
organizacion... quiza alguien quiera hacer un mirror, in English
La verdad, es que tuve finalmente el honor de concurrir, al closed, del
Congreso Internacional de Tango Argentino. CITA
Ante todo, el Club Espaniol, un lugar, que debo decir, no conocia, de
una hidalguia, maravillosa, dispuesto en tres plantas, con una
buaserie(yo no escribo frances, pero me entienden verdad?) maravillosa,
en sus paredes y cielo raso, de donde penden esplendidas aranias de
cristal. Este es el salon principal, con escenario, donde luego en la
Segunda parte actuo el SEXTETO MAYOR , y toda la gente, se dice que
asistentes al curso, 300, mas todos los que no asistieron a los cursos,
pero si al resto de actividades, clases eventos, en fin, y un ambiente
que se respiraba a closed, OLIMPICO, por las fotos, las urgencias en
fin, alli se confundia, la alegria, la nostalgia de la partida, y la
satisfaccion de haber podido estar en el evento
Las pilchas, ni les cuento, GALA, pero de verdad, smocking, hasta un
frack con boina, que lucio mariano "Chicho"Frumboli, con Claudia
Jakobsen, indumentaria, que solo Chicho, por sus caracteristicas
personales, y sus dotes de bailarin, pueden usar.. Grande Chicho!!!..
Primera Parte Exhibicion
1-Nito y Elba
2-Pupy Castello y Graciela Gonzalez
3-Tete y Silvia
4-Facundo y kelly
5-Gustavo Naveira y Olga Besio
6-Milo y Cecilia Gonzalez
7-Omar Vega y Luciana
8-Fabian Salas y Lucia mazer
9-Mariano Chicho Frumboli y Caludia Jakobse.
10-Osvaldo zotto y Lorena Ermocida.
Gente, es dificil, expresar emocion, y ello es lo que quisiera dejar
plasmado en estas lineas.
En fin no hablemos, de Nito y Elba, gente ya grande y magistral, ademas
como personas tambien, Facundo y Kely, con su Trampera, mezcla de
Candombe milongueada, o al revez, Omar Vega, a quien se le notan
todavia, algunos resabios de sus practicas deportivas. Guatavo Naveira y
Olga, no se puede decir nada, Fabian Salas, con Lucia Mazer... Fabian es
para quien no se ubica, el protagonista en The Tango lesson...
Fabian, y ella me trasmitieron algo muuy especial, no se que musica,
maravillosa, interpretaron, pero ajustar el cuerpo, el sentimento y la
musica, no es taaaaan dificil, en una milonga, suele no ser taan
dificil, pero en publico, centro de las mirada, si por momentos, parecia
que levitaba, no se si el alma, se le habia escapado, o uan fuerza
superior los desplazaba, casi sin pisar, acariciando el piso.... Bueno
no hace falta que les diga, que me encanto.
Y para postre, Osvaldo Zotto, y Lorena Ermocida, ellos, son magistrales,
en don o tres pasos, recorren el salon, y el final de Lorena... que con
H y sin ella es Hermosa...se mando un solo de boleas, que debo
reconocer, en mi vida habia visto algo igual. no miento es un
movimiento que se lo vi por primera vez, a Jorge Donn, una
maraviiiiiiiiiiiiiiillaaaaaa
Que pena, que los videos, de danza pesen tanto, pero amigo CORSO... de
ellos, no se puede perder, ese final...
Buehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... respiraciones profundas un dso tres.
Segunda Parte...
El Sexteto Mayor
(fehmi, les di tu mail... Libertella..casi, casi lloran, te van a
llamar, los muchachos y creo que pronto, los vas atener por ahi...por
suerte lo agarre a Libertella, antes de subir a escena, para darles el
Fehmis mail)
Realmente, fue, un jolgorio, ellos tocan mucho Pugliese (Carlos de
Belgrano :)) y ademas, tocaron, para todos los maestros, La Cumparsita,
como se puede, tocar un bandoneon, como ese Gordo, del al,a que no se si
canta, baila, y toca, todo ondula al mismo compas, mmientras se seca su
abundante traspiracion)
Son unos MAGOS TROESMAS!!!!!
Y luego, los alumnos, invitabana bailar a los maestros/as... a algunos
se los vio muy tironeados EH!.
La fiesta, y milonga, siguio, en el segundo piso, con la actuacion de
otro conjunto en vivo, excelente, creo que es el Cuarteto Almagro, y el
Tape, un conocido, por slgunos, mas que todos, compuso el CosmoTango...
organizacion que preparo y realizo el evento...
Luego entrega de diplomas a los maestros, y como faltaba, toooooooooda
la entrega de diplomas a los alumnos, Etc. y yo a las 08:00 firmo... me
vine a mi casa, me saltaban las alitas de contenta.
Pero para completar, 3 Parte Final
Exhibicion final del Sexteto Mayor, a quienes se le sumaban los maestros
arriba mencionados, mas Giselle Anne, Julio Balmaceda y Corina dela
Rosa, Rodolfo y Maria Ciere (en estilo canyengue,.... otros, no existe
eh!) carlos y alicia, Roberto Reis, y Guillermina Quiroga (me encantan)
Gustavo Russo y Alejandra martinian, El Indio y Mariana Flores, Claudio
Gonzalez, y Valentina, Carmencita Calderon Y Juan Averna ( Siiiii ella,
la historia viva del tango, gente, tan cuidadita, con sus taquitos y sus
flequitos, y tan solo 95 anios...) gachi Fernandez y Sergio Corrazzo,
Pocho Pizarro y Patricia (Peio, te suena?) Eduardo Capussi, y Mariana
Flores.
Realmente, creo que la lista, es la mas extensa de la historia, donde se
dejaron, rencores, recelos, y otras historias, y toodos, pusieron lo
mejor, para que quede ya anunciado... EL CITA del Jubileo, del Tercer
Milenio.
Sinceramente, yo creo que muchisma, gente se quedo con muchas ganas, y
muchos otros, con bronca, pero lo que hicieron fue HERMOSO.
Ojala, pueda crecer, ojala,y tener acceso tambien la gente local, y
otorgar becas, se que Ricardito TK, se acuerdan de Turco Soft?, pidio
una beca, pero no se la otorgaron, en fin que puedan interesar
autoridades, para que esto crezca, pues yo senti muchas ausencias. hay
un auspicio de la "NUEVA DIRECCION EN LA CULTURA", que dezconozco, el
origen, pero sea tambien bienvenida.
Muchachos, esto fue una fiesta, y yo tuve el honor de vivirla, en lo
unico que me parecia, para mi... que para el tango soy nada, ni
nadie...este evento y hoy tengo el placer de compartirla con ustedes.
se que tendre lectores de fierro, y les cuento que tengo el catalogo,
muuuy bello, y fotos de muchos, bailarine, casi todos, los que nombre.
Si alguien desea algo mas, a vuestra disposicion.
Creo que la emocion de los closed, de los juegos olimpicos... se le
parecen..
Un fuerte abrazo Milonguero
L @dy
Lic. Liliana E. Tijman
Kinesiologa.
---------------------------------------------------
L @dy forever like a TANGO!! (also.. LU7AUI)
ICQ 814335
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Bistro/4011/tango.htm
La portada del programa, es la reproduccion de una pintura de tecnicas
mixtas de 1,50 x 1.20m llamado "Tango en la Boca"de Guillermo Alio.
Si alguien la quiere ver, esta a disposicion..
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:25:44 -0800
From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 31 Mar 1999 to 1 Apr 1999
I thought today was a great day on the TANGO-L: wonderful material, and
very important.
And VERY deserving of more comment from the group, I hope.
First, Aristotelis gave a hilarious account of Greek taxi drivers as
tangueros. (P.S: Have you heard the ironic comment about "jokes"?:
"There are no jokes.")
Then, Melinda Bates bravely (I thought) brought up the
nuclear-button-equipped topic of what to do about leaders who are brutes,
or jerks, and her decision to occasionally and politely end a dance early,
or decline to dance with a partner that has offended her in the past. She
mentioned that other women were shocked at this, and made the comment
(rhetorically) that "In America no one just says "no" without an
explanation." She then mentioned her instructor friend who hates to have
women ask him to dance at milongas, thereby alluding to some of the sexual
politics that accompany this loaded issue of who asks who to dance, and how.
Well-spoken on all accounts. I once sketched out a complete essay on some
of these issues, based on personal and sociological principles related to
dance, my understanding of tango in Argentina and 18 years of travel and
experience to Latin America, - but I will not give it here. I would rather
see the group take it up, because I think it need help. I will try to keep
my comments as brief as I can manage:
First of all, "Bravo" to Melinda. I think women should turn down men at
milongas a lot more often - for themselves, for their own autonomy and
their own legitimate right to have the experience that they want to have in
tango. ("Our Bodies, Our Selves", if you understand the reference.)
I say this as a man who has wanted to dance his whole life, but until
recently always lived, studied, and worked in environments where there were
always far more available men than women, and where dancing with a partner
was nearly impossible for most guys, most of the time. Until I got into
Brazilian dance, and later, tango, I was probably turned down over 75% of
all the times I ever asked a girl or woman to dance in the United States.
And, unlike Melinda's comment, it was usually just plain "No" - there were
no explanations. I suffered greatly for this, and it has affected my life
in many unfortunate ways.
In spite of this, I strongly support the right of women to decline to
dance, unless they wish to. It is only fair and right that a person choose
with whom they care to come so close. If tango carries so many deep
lessons about intimacy and communication, why doesn't the follower get to
be more selective? When I first came to tango, I was absolutely astounded
to see how uniformly, and almost automatically, a given leader could expect
to get a dance with a large variety of followers. Let me acknowledge that
this social phenonema has benefited me personally very much, in that when I
was a complete novice, I could risk asking someone, because the "default
setting" was that the women would practically always accept. I,
personally, never would have been able to be a tango dancer otherwise. But
just because it helped me, or one of us, doesn't mean it is all right, or
should be a social model for tango in the United States. I would like to
hear the opinions of others on this topic.
A related topic is one that has weighed upon me more and more in the
several years I have been attending milongas. The question is: Are there
any limits to the intrusiveness demonstrated by a man who comes up to ask a
dance of a women who is currently engaged in a conversation with another
man, or a group, alongside the dance floor? (The question still applies if
the genders above are reversed, but let me use the common pattern for
clarity.)
No one, whether in Bs.As. or America, would question the appropriateness of
a man approaching a group of women to ask one to dance (presumably, they
are there to dance, right?) And, in our milongas, it is usual and
customary for a group of men and women friends to be chatting alongside the
floor, and another male friend, known to several of them, come up to ask
one of the women to dance. I don't have the slightest problem with this.
Since in the USA our customs are totally different than Argentina, and men
and women mingle and talk to each other between dances, it has to be this
way.
But, what if a man and a woman are talking together, by themselves, in a
personal and animated manner, face to face, and a second man comes over
(known or unknown to the couple) and asks for a dance, and expects to get
it?(see above) I have been outright shocked by what I consider the
audacity of such men, and have been dismayed to see virtually every women
cave in and comply with the "social rule" about nearly-mandatory acceptance
on the part of the followers. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that many
women in this situation hate to be torn out of the conversation, by their
eyes and gestures, but they apparently feel they have no choice.
As any women who is aquainted with me through tango will attest, I am known
more for my interest in meaningful and interesting conversations than in
the quality of my dancing, so, you should believe me when I say that there
have been many occasions when I find myself deep in conversation with a
woman, off the dance floor, sitting down, very close, sometimes with my arm
gently around her shoulders, talking. I am refering to platonic
conversations, "we are just friends only", but we are often talking about
things that are genuinely important, sometimes extremely important,
personal, acute and emotionally intense, events that are life-changing for
some of these people. And still, incredibly, unbelievably!, certain men
will come brazenly over, interrupt the conversation and announce to her:
"Do you want to dance?" (I say "announce" deliberately.)
Admittedly, my social experience and standards are perhaps more Latin
American than North American, but I still can't believe this happens here.
I know it would have been inconceivable in a more polite and respectful
America of the past. In Brazil, where the bulk of my social experience
lies, if a man did this, he could safely assume that in a matter of seconds
or minutes, that kind of behavior would quickly lead to the development of
a second trachea located on the front of his neck, approximately 4 inches
across in the transverse axis, with associated gurgling sounds, and some
pain. In Argentina, in a milonga, I don't think anybody would be so stupid
or rude as to invade of the space of a man and woman talking together
intimately, but if they did, I hope there would be a way to deal with it in
an appropriate way (like a good beating, or ejection from the
establishment).
Analyze it yourself. What is the social meaning of this behavior?
Essentially, the man is saying with his action: "My right to ask this
woman to dance (who I may barely know), supercedes your right to continue
the personal conversation you have been having with this woman, alone
together, off the dance floor." And, the woman's acceptance is
essentially saying the same: "His right to ask me to dance, and my
obligation to cooperate, is greater that the value of the conversation you
and I are having right now, no matter how important that conversation may
be to you or I."
Melinda Bates told us where she stands on not dancing with men who are
unpleasant or inapproriate, and she said some of her women friends were
shocked. This reminded me so much of my decision this last year to say to
certain men in the above situation, upon seeing the agony in the eyes of
women who were about to jerked away to dance with a stranger, "No. We are
having a very important conversation right now, and you can return and ask
Suzy-Q to dance when we are finished." I then watch them slink away with
their tails between their legs, and rightly so! As I asked before, "Are
there any limits to the intrusiveness which certain men show in their
behavior around the dance floor?"
There is one more point I wish to make, and I will do it very quickly. It
is perhaps the most controversial topic of all, and it is about whether
women should ask men to dance. Having said all the things I've said above,
I will go forward and put my head in the noose one more time:
In general, I don't think women should ask men to dance Argentine tango,
WITH SOME IMPORTANT EXCEPTIONS. (Now there, it's out!) This is based on
an increasing knowledge of the culture and history of tango, a strong sense
of South American culture and values, but mostly based on the actual nature
of tango, the dance and the music. It is also based on a desire for the
same autonomy and rights which I want women to have in the tango, and which
I want for for myself as well.
First, if a man and woman are friends, or frequent dance partners, and the
woman knows that the man likes dancing with her, and that he likes the
music being played, then I think it is fine for her to suggest a dance from
time to time. Another, very different, case (which used to be my case):
If a man is a newcomer to tango, is petrified to ask a woman to dance, and
needs REAL HELP in taking his first toddler's steps on the floor, and you
are a person with a big heart and a genuine humanitarian bent to your
personality, and you think the guy is basically a decent guy, then by all
means, ask him to dance! (Thanks Donna, Terri, Nirmala, Rebecca, and the
others - you know who you are.) In other words, there are situations where
from time to time, it works for a woman to ask a man to dance.
But, in general, I think it is just out of the character of tango for a
woman to ask a man. Yes, I know American culture is better than any other,
and that the American way is superior to any other form of behavior or
values (or do I?), and that American women can out-man the men practically
any day, but I still don't think it's good idea. (As my old friend Bob
used to say: "Women are becoming the men they wanted to marry.") And I
know it is very fashionable that the male feminists in tango (Trenner,
quite a few on the Tango-L, you know the type) vociferously advocate that
women should ask men to dance, and swear that they greatly appreciate it
all the time when they are asked, etc etc,...
But,
I think people should spend some time in Buenos Aires, and come to
understand the social dynamics of tango, and the attitudes and behavior of
it's original practitioners, and the way a dance is asked for and accepted
in Argentina, before they take too strong a stand on this subject here in
the USA. There is just something about the tango ... maybe you either
believe it or you don't ... but IMHO, it simply is not a symmetric,
legislated, codified, post-industrial, role-neutral, americanized deal,
where, let's say, the atomic mass of a proton is exactly equal to the mass
of a neutron. They are different. The roles of the follower and leader
are different - VERY VERY different. They require very different sets of
skills. Isn't it true? The leader must lead. The follower must follow.
As a very astute observer said once, rhetorically, "When a woman asks me to
dance, I say to myself, 'Is she planning to lead?'" When a follower asks a
man to dance, what she is basically saying is: "Lead me!" Well, maybe he
doesn't WANT to lead her! Apart from whether he is tired, too sweaty,
doesn't like the music, maybe he CAN'T lead her. Maybe she is unleadable
(at least by him). Maybe he can't dance well to that kind of music (like
me dancing milonga). ("WHY do women ask me to dance milongas; don't they
watch how badly I dance milongas ??!!*#!!") Probably the worst thing is
when a woman asks a man to lead her, and then criticizes him during the
song for poor leading. You think this doesn't happen? It's happened to me
plenty of times. Like Melinda, I now say "No thanks" to those women. What
about a woman who barges in on a conversation you're having with someone,
grabs your hand and forcefully pulls you away onto the floor, and does this
again and again, in spite of the fact you never ask her to dance. You
think this doesn't happen? It does, and I don't like it. Do you guys like
it?
I'm a traditionalist, and I think tango carries from the past to the
present a certain history, and feeling, and, yes, tradition. These
traditions are based on human nature, and the very nature of the thing
itself ... so-called "suchness" in the classical Buddhist psychology. In
Argentine tango, I think the nature of the beast is that it is better for
the leaders to ask the followers to dance. I would rather see a woman
leader ask other women or men to follow, than for followers to ask leaders
to dance. Sorry, but that's how I feel.
Enough of me. What do others think?
Steve Hoffman
_________________________________________________________
Steve Hoffman
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:01:04 -0500
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 31 Mar 1999 to 1 Apr 1999
From: Steve Hoffman Thursday, April 01, 1999 1:25 PM
> ..... it is about whether women should ask men to dance.
> In general, I don't think women should ask men to dance Argentine tango,
WITH SOME IMPORTANT EXCEPTIONS.
> If a man is a newcomer to tango, is petrified to ask a woman to dance,
and needs REAL HELP in taking his first toddler's steps on the floor, and
you are a person with a big heart and a genuine humanitarian bent to your
personality...
So, Steve, you say that as long as I can pass myself off as a charity case;
shy, inept, completely incapable of executing passable technique on the
floor, then the magnanimous among the ladies should see to it that I am
attended to. But once I gain a little confidence and exhibit some ability,
then they should avoid approaching me.
I'll do my best to appear clumsy and timid. ;-).
Tangringo
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:40:24 EST
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Asking & Responding
Regarding Steve Hoffman's post about asking to dance and the posible
replies...
Steve, it was nice to read an opinionated post (and yes it was long, long
eonugh to be not read by many)
Aristotelis humor missed me last time, this time it was right on the money.
Good job.
I do not agree in principal, Melinda's response "just say no". I am not saying
make up an excuse if you don't wish to dance. But do say your reason. How else
you can avoid misintrepretations. Don't make it a gessing game. Does it mean
you don't wish to dance now, not to this song, not tonight, not with one
specific person, until when .. ever, why ? Someone with pride, like me, will
never ask again to dance with that person, and if that is the intention then
it succeeds. What if that is not the intention ? Just as we don't have to be
friends with everyone, we don't have to dance with everyone. But just out of
curtesy to a fellow tango dancer we have to be polite. Other than intolerable
situations, may be, even, dance a song. How else we are going to promote
tango, not for the sake of tango itself but for the sake of our own selfish
enjoyment.
I agree with the fact that not every "let's dance" proposition should have an
automatic acceptance. Why would anyone be offended to hear "I really want to
finish this conversation first. May be later ?" if they interupt a
conversation ? Live and let live. We can be very civil about this ( no
bloodshed ). Some people will ask and some people will respond. Just be honest
about it.
On the other hand I don't agree with Steve that women should not ask men to
dance. Just as women have the freedom to be selective , they also have the
freedom to ask. With the same token, men have the choice to accept or decline
- again saying out loud why they do not wish to dance i.e. "I really don't
enjoy milongas much", "I do not feel comfortable to dance milongas. yet"...
Steve writes-
"But, in general, I think it is just out of the character of tango for a
woman to ask a man. Yes, I know American culture is better than any other,
and that the American way is superior to any other form of behavior or
values (or do I?), "
Do you know why American way is superior ? It is based on freedom; choice,
action, decision.. you can do anything you want as long as you don't interfere
with anyone (violate rights of someone else), which also implies whatever
people do together is on a voluntary basis. If I value dancing with someone
(who happens to be having a conversation with someone else) more than sitting
and watching I should, and would ask that person to dance with me. It is up to
her to decide what she values more: to dance with me or to remain in the
conversation. And if she choses the option she values less then there is a
problem in her judgement system. But it is not rational for me to sacrifice
my joy of dancing with that person just in case she MAY prefer to talk
instead of dancing with me.
That's my bit...
Jak
jkarako @bailatango.com
www.bailatango.com
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:01:51 -0500
From: Fernandez Eduardo <efernandez @IUCNUS.ORG>
Subject: tango manners
Thanks Melinda for raising this points and Steven, I do agreed with all that
you both said.
Let me share with you some experiences on that. When I just start to attend
milongas in USA I was horrified of the bad manners of people in the dance
floor and in the place where people socialize, around the floor.
My first impression was that I was attending a party in the Farwest, with
very rude guy and easy girls... I was surprise how some ladies let this guys
grab her arms or her waist and pull them to the dance floor without any
previous approach.
What Steven says about guys getting to interrupt couples that are chatting
away from the floor happens everyday and I think this is a main reason why
we don't have more couples in the tango community. This couples felt
threaten by this people attitudes and finally if you are a little bit
civilize you don't' want to be part of this situation where some guys manage
to make the others feel that the milonga is a "meat market". In that
ambiance you can not be sure that you can spent a good moment with your
partner, because probably somebody will interrupt you with bad manners.
But, let say that this happens not only in USA. I saw this is Europe too and
its happening in BA now. No long ago I was dancing with a mature lady in La
Ideal and she was complaining that, "there are not anymore good milongueros
in BA, as use to be". I did ask her, what was for her a good milonguero? She
told me, "have to be clean, good dress, smell well, walk with the music and
have manners...".
I think this all about dancing tango. Steeps? who cares!!!! Fancy steeps are
for the fools that are more worry about the other guys in the room that to
please the lady that are dancing with.
But coming back to our local manners. What strikes me more is when teachers
behavior is like that. Personally I was involve lately two times when a
local teacher once, and an Argentinean teacher the other, did the same:
Interrupt, grab the lady, ignore the situation where the lady was involve
and force her to go to dance taking advantage that woman in the USA tango
communities behave like a prey.
So. To me is not a bad dancer the one who threaten the community. He/she can
learn. But can people learn manners? I am skeptical on that. So, The only
way to stop the bad manners is to say "NO, I don't dance", to the people
that insist in that behavior.
Eduardo
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:57:12 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frank @INDY.BSBE.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: invitations & protocol
Steve and Friends,
Steve has asked for reactions and opinions concerning his eloquently stated
and very personal opinions on traditions and protocol in tango. I have only
one point to make. In many places where Argentine Tango has taken root, there
simply are no indigenous or imported traditions to support Steve's "proper"
protocols. In young tango communities, we must help each other to learn and
to appreciate tango music, dance and culture. The operative word is "help".
Those who are almost automatically willing to accept a dance even with someone
not of their choosing are to be commended. I'm not the only one to consider
it rude to only accept or request dances with those who are exceptionally
attractive or whose skills are superior to one's own.
As far as I can see, the culture that Steve wishes were more prevalent must
develop in a community along with it's dancers and the cultural attitudes that
accompany Argentine dance are probably the last element of tradition to be
superimposed on any given "scene". They are attitudes that in their exported
form (IMHO), neither encourage new people to learn nor the community to grow
(perhaps until they master the "eye game"). If I'm wrong about this, please
correct me. I'm not saying that we should suspend the consequences for
rudeness - although accessory alimentary canal openings are perhaps
overreactions - but grabbing an attitude that doesn't fit each of us
personally is way phony! I say, "Dance who you are, dance what you're
feeling, dance when you want (even if you have to ask)".
Intruding into a personal conversation is, of course, brusque. But what if
you're sitting and talking with somebody who (you didn't realize) would rather
be dancing, only to have a third party intervene? Maybe the person sitting
with you flashed a quick S.O.S. with her/his eyes or maybe somebody else
simply knew them better. There's no singular fault or blame. One could take
it as a learning experience as opposed to an affront.
We all have different expectations. One (rare) behavior that can
burn *my* bacon is being interrupted by anybody but my partner
while on the floor in the midst of a dance (unless it's an
emergency)! To me, THAT'S the most important 'conversation' at a
milonga! As always, YMMV.
Best regards and sweet tangos to all,
Frank in Minneapolis
_______________________________________________________________
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frank @indy.bsbe.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
frank @biosci.cbs.umn.edu 4-103 Owre Hall
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:40:47 -0400
From: Daniel Carpi <carpi @AXON.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: This Tuesday Tango Magic in NYC.
For those who live near New York:
I think that this is a show NOT-TO-BE-MISSED!
A concert for New and not so New Tango
Tuesday April 6 Tango concert @ Carnegie Hall, New York City*
**Tango Magic** a Tribute to Astor Pizzolla
*Gidon Kremer- Master Violinist*
*Pablo Ziegler's "Quintet for New Tango" *
*Jose Angel Trelles- voice*
*Gary Burton- Vibraphone*
*Orpheus- Chamber Orchestra*
*Maria Grana- Singer*
*Carolina Zokalski and Diego Di Falco -Dancers*
More info @ http://www.dancetango.com/tangomagic.html
________________________________________________________
_____________________________
Daniel Carpi
La Milonga
LaMilonga @dancetango.com
http://www.dancetango.com
_____________________________
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:49:34 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 31 Mar 1999 to 1 Apr 1999
We once had a conversation on the list called "Promiscuous Dancing", ie
women being "too easy" and willing to dance with any man.
Steve noticed that the "rule" seems to be for a woman to always accept, and
the other behavior he discussed was whether she should ask a man to dance.
In claiming that women should be more selective, Steve raised issues of
social convention and N.American vs Latin American sensibilities.
The question I would ask is whether a woman will get the dance she is
hoping for by being "too easy" or by asking a man herself.
There seem to be an excess of women compared to men in Tango. Maybe she
just wants a dance, any dance, but I think this tendency has led the men in
N.America to get lazy. Why should they work hard to be good if it is just
so darn easy to get dances.
Notice that in Argentina of the early 1900s the gender ratios leaned
extremely to an excess of men, and that tango developed over several
generations during which the men always outnumbered the women...up until
the 50s? This must have led to insecurity on the part of the "young bucks",
newly arrived at a milonga. How would they be capable of competing with the
Alpha-males? How many of the older gentlemen have reported the feeling that
in order for them to get ANY attention, they had to be good, really good.
I don't have a political issue with this, but I do think the sociology of
the classroom or a practica is and should be very different from that of a
milonga.
Perhaps we should ask the question whether many of our milongas really are
worthy of the name.
...
>First of all, "Bravo" to Melinda. I think women should turn down men at
>milongas a lot more often - for themselves, for their own autonomy and
>their own legitimate right to have the experience that they want to have in
>tango. ("Our Bodies, Our Selves", if you understand the reference.)
...
>There is one more point I wish to make, and I will do it very quickly. It
>is perhaps the most controversial topic of all, and it is about whether
>women should ask men to dance. Having said all the things I've said above,
>I will go forward and put my head in the noose one more time:
>
>In general, I don't think women should ask men to dance Argentine tango,
>WITH SOME IMPORTANT EXCEPTIONS. (Now there, it's out!) This is based on
>an increasing knowledge of the culture and history of tango, a strong sense
>of South American culture and values, but mostly based on the actual nature
>of tango, the dance and the music. It is also based on a desire for the
>same autonomy and rights which I want women to have in the tango, and which
>I want for for myself as well.
...
> But,
>I think people should spend some time in Buenos Aires, and come to
>understand the social dynamics of tango, and the attitudes and behavior of
>it's original practitioners, and the way a dance is asked for and accepted
>in Argentina, before they take too strong a stand on this subject here in
>the USA. There is just something about the tango ... maybe you either
>believe it or you don't ... but IMHO, it simply is not a symmetric,
>legislated, codified, post-industrial, role-neutral, americanized deal,
>where, let's say, the atomic mass of a proton is exactly equal to the mass
>of a neutron. They are different. The roles of the follower and leader
>are different - VERY VERY different. They require very different sets of
>skills. Isn't it true? The leader must lead. The follower must follow.
...
>Enough of me. What do others think?
>
>Steve Hoffman
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
Chautauqua Publishing / Ragtime Interiors
"On-Line Arts & Crafts Movement Resource Directory."
(303) 388 - 2560
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime/
http://www.tango.org/dance/
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:48:04 PST
From: John Trimble <john.trimble @EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: invitations & protocol
I don't turn the ladies down who ask to dance with me, and I don't think ill
of them for asking. As a rule, it's lifted my spirits, though I'll be
reluctantly mindful from now on of the "mercy dance".
With regard to the abrupt partner grabs that seem prevalent in tango, I have
struggled not to feel resentful when another leader has snatched up my
partner when we were relaxed between dances on the dance floor. At least
once, I let it disturb my mood for the remainder of the evening, though I
must confess that my feelings were in part injured by my partner's
subscription to the grab. It took too long for me to admit to myself that
we had not agreed upon another dance, and that I was taking it for granted
by our remaining on the floor during the pause in the music. I don't
suppose it would've happened if I'd kept her in a dance hold (been more
assertive myself).
Any suggestions on how to put such incidents behind and get on with enjoying
the remaining dances?
Any insight into the assertive mentality, (so I can try it on for size)?
I also get negative feelings about the other leaders when I see them snatch
someone up like a sack of mail in the pony express. I wouldn't suggest to
a lady that she rebuff such approaches if she finds them inoffensive, but I
might go the extra flirt with his girlfriend if he slipped in and grabbed up
someone I had an eye to dance with.
I follow a bit,too, but it's more likely with the progressive ladies than
the aggressive gents, so I don't get the chance myself to say, "No, you're
too brusque". Sounds like fun, though.
Bringing my posting full circle, if I were of a more "traditional" mindset,
I might say "No, you're too brusque" to any lady who asks me to dance. But
I think that it would not be a traditional response, though I'm wondering
what the traditional response might be.
John
John Trimble
john.trimble @excite.com
or backup john_trimble @hotmail.com
My web page has social dance venues in Dallas
http://home.switchboard.com/dancewithme
_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:05:50 EST
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: invitations & protocol
Hello John and the List,
In response to John's taking the blame for another man "snatching up"
his partner:
<<It took too long for me to admit to myself that
we had not agreed upon another dance, and that I was taking it for granted
by our remaining on the floor during the pause in the music. I don't
suppose it would've happened if I'd kept her in a dance hold (been more
assertive myself).>>
I have to say that it seems the height of rudeness to interrupt a
couple chatting between dances while on the dance floor!
In Buenos Aires there's a "code" of how such things are done. A
couple is still considered together throughout the 4 or 5 dances that are
considered a set, or "tanda." Between the songs is the only time they have to
chat and socialize. They never stay in dance position, but move apart a
couple of feet and talk until the next song is well under way. Then they take
their time assuming the dance position once again. The partnership isn't over
until she says Gracias and he escorts her back to her table. No one ever asks
someone to dance on the floor. And I've never seen anyone "grabbed."
I find it very helpful that down there people know the score and
understand the system, so that gaffes don't occurr so often. In the States
sometimes it does seem everyone is for him/herself and anything goes. But I
think in the case of tango, it makes more room for error and
misunderstanding, and sometimes hurt feelings.
Cherie
Los Angeles
http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:10:49 -0500
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Lifting Spirits and Partner Grabs (originally: invitations & protocol)
John Trimble wrote Thursday, April 01, 1999 6:48 PM:
>
> I don't turn the ladies down who ask to dance with me, and I don't think
ill of them for asking. As a rule, it's lifted my spirits...
> With regard to the abrupt partner grabs that seem prevalent in tango, I
have struggled not to feel resentful when another leader has snatched up my
partner when we were relaxed between dances on the dance floor.
I think that ordinary rules of civility and politeness apply at a milonga,
the same as they do to in any encounter in a friendly atmosphere. I don't
have any problem with women asking men to dance. The request for a dance
should always be done in a polite and considerate way, by either gender.
The acceptance, and even more so a refusal, should also be done with
politeness and consideration.
It's really pretty simple, and doesn't require any overarching rules as to
who can ask and who can't. I've been turned down, politely, and felt no
reason to be offended. If I ever have occasion to refuse a woman's
invitation to a dance, I hope I will be able to do it without causing hurt
feelings.
Some like to play the "eye game" in the Argentine tradition. That's fine
for them. I'm just as comfortable walking up to someone who appears to be
available to dance, and asking her if she would like to dance with me. The
tables have been turned occasionally, and I've been asked. Each of those
times it was an enjoyable experience. I hope no one imposes any rules that
discourage it.
On the subject of interrupting another couple, I am quite comfortable with
the convention that you ask the escort or companion if you may invite the
lady to dance. Depending on the situation, we might even ask for a dance
later, in case we suspect that they might not be ready to separate just
now. If they're out on the floor, between dances of a set, I would find it
hard to justify trying to separate them.
As for grabbing or snatching, I would leave that social technique out on
the football field.
Tangringo
End of TANGO-L Digest - 1 Apr 1999 to 2 Apr 1999
************************************************