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TANGO-L Digest - 14 Sep 1998 to 15 Sep 1998
There are 23 messages totalling 1361 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Looking for Rodolfo & Maria Cieri
2. In defense of rudeness (sort of) (5)
3. Lucky Beginners
4. Class Levels and Visiting Professors
5. Beginner's Luck (5)
6. to dance, to confide
7. Cunita (aka Hobble Step)
8. Tango Junkie
9. (fwd) Cunita (aka Hobble Step)
10. Not In defense of Rudeness
11. leading to the cross
12. Tango Links and Tango Tales
13. Tango dancing in London ? (And in Oxford?)
14. Tango in Santander
15. The NYC Experience
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:54:07 +0200
From: Mark Soekarjo <soekarjo @PROBIBLIO.NL>
Subject: Looking for Rodolfo & Maria Cieri
Hi ,
does anybody know where I can reach Rodolfo & Maria?
I need to contact them urgently
thanx
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 02:39:16 PDT
From: Ray Moreno <compadrito @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: In defense of rudeness (sort of)
>To "Ray" --
>I strongly disagree with your psychoanalysis of Mata, so let me
>reply in terms of psychology, or at least anthropology.
>Mata expressed no disappointment with her spouse. Rather, she
>raises to the group an awkward social situationshe runs into. Her only
>"problem", that we can fairly assume, is that she cares about the
>feelings of her spouse, and of her friends and the other members of
>a social group which she feels (correctly) that she is a member of.
>
>Her motive for talking to Tango-L about this is obvious: the problem
>Mata talks about is very, very common for dancers. I've been part of
>various dance communities for 15 years, and have known many
>couples (and been in some) where one dances less, less well, or not
>at all, or is less part of the particular dance group, or less
comfortable
>dancing with others. I've also heard many, many people comment
>that social difficulties (the kind Mata discusses, or jealousy issues,
>or other problems) are universal for couples in dance circles. I don't
>know if they are universal. They are at least very common. So there
>probably is no simple solution, Mata, but thanks for discussing it.
>
>-- Ted
>
>P.S. -- Ray, could we take any further discussion of Mata's
>private life or marriage off-line?
>
To "Crowley"
Your reply is most welcome as another consideration of people's behavior
at AT dances.
However, it is very pitiless and thoughtless on your part to presume
that the discussion of one of many possible causes for certain types of
comportment as described by the individual requesting advice, implies a
discussion of this person's private life or marriage.
"The case described could be the result of" was the subject of my
contribution.
I suppose that if somebody suffered from nagging headaches and asked for
some advice, you would answer with a lengthy and pedantic description of
how headaches are normal on people alive and you would discourage
suggestions that a tumor should be considered as a possible cause of the
headaches.
-Ray
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 02:56:09 PDT
From: Ray Moreno <compadrito @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: In defense of rudeness (sort of)
Hello Andrea,
>What Mata described could really just be about dance and not some deep
>sexual dysfunction.
Yes it COULD and not it COULDN'T, that's exactly my point.
>Maybe she just does want to dance with other men.
Only she knows that, so your guessing is just that, guessing.
>It doesn't necessarily mean she is "playing complicated games" or
>"hurting innocent bystanders."
Of course not, but the possibility exists and that is the whole point of
replying with a "what if" angle to a public request for advice.
>At the very least, your reply is exaggerated. It is also somewhat
>intrusive, don't you think?
No I don't, because in real life people play "games" with ulterior
motives, and the "players" engage in destructive behavior. Pointing out
to the existence of those "games" is one of many ways to be aware of
them and to find ways to avoid them.
>How can you make such a harsh & personal "diagnosis" based on a >simple
query about dance?
Mental health is my business, AT is my hobby. There are no simple
queries about dance. :-)
-Ray
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 03:02:22 -0700
From: Tanya Chou <toastercat @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: In defense of rudeness (sort of)
Ray,
For while, I thought all you posting are just a joke without the
smiles, becuase I simply cannot believe someone would be so rude as to
a point that you seems to want to be vote as the public enemy... are
we actually reading the posting from the "real" Ray or some bozo who
happened to know Ray's password to hotmail??
Tanya
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:35:13 -0400
From: Jacques Gauthier <jacquesg @USA.NET>
Subject: Re: Lucky Beginners
> dancer. Also, the cat walks silently, and has wonderful balance -
> doesn't bounce or trip or stomp or drag it's feet. Should a
> tanguero(/tanguera) not do the same?
Well Hepcats bounce don't they ? :-)
Jacques G.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...It has been observed that one's nose is never so happy as when it
is thrust into the affairs of another, from which some physiologists
have drawn the inference that the nose is devoid of the sense of
smell.
-- Ambrose Bierce
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:22:08 -0500
From: "Stephen P. Brown" <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Class Levels and Visiting Professors
Several private conversations prompted me to resume the recent
thread on class levels and screening participants for workshops
taught by visiting professors.
For a weekend workshop, it seems nearly impossible to provide
extensive screening through auditions. It may also be financial
suicide for the visiting professor(s) or local organizer(s) to
screen very heavily. But it is also impossible for a professor to
teach a group class and reach every level of student who might
walk in the door--particularly as the class size grows.
Self screening is not successful in all cases, however. Susan and
I did not learn very much when we attended a workshop class
offered in a very large tango community by a well-known visiting
professor. The class was described as advanced, and we found the
material challenging. After a few minutes with the first
exercise, the professor asked us to rotate. Complying, Susan and
I both ended up with a string of totally unqualified partners.
In this case, should the professor have adjusted the class to the
average level of the participants? As I overheard the professor
himself say to one of the students (somewhat contemptuously), "The
class was described as advanced."
An additional problem with self screening is that what is described
as intermediate and advanced varies by instructor and style. For
instance, those who have little experience with close-embrace tango
may have difficulty in an intermediate or advanced close-embrace
class even if they are advanced practioners of open-embrace style.
All these problems seem to be lessened to some extent in smaller
communities. The local professor who is typically involved in the
organization of the workshop is able to advice studentsv about
which classes are appropriate. In contrast, the smaller pool of
potential students may prevent the visiting professor offering an
extensive variety of classes.
At workshop classes where Susan and I know a number of the other
participants, we sometimes form small groups and exchange partners
only within the group. Of course, that is not something that the
visiting professor or local organizer can easily arrange. It may also
be an activity that those who are excluded will not like.
--Steve de Tejas
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:20:49 -0700
From: Pat Cummings <drpat @AHT.COM>
Subject: Re: Beginner's Luck
JC Dill wrote:
>Whew! The only "moves" this beginner knows are the D8CB, the
>walk and the hobble step but see how many different ways they
>can be put together? This is a *major* failing on the part of most
>AT teachers, they don't really TEACH their students how to
>recombine these 3 simple basics...
Last night, my husband was trying to coax a brand-new beginner onto the
floor. She was worried that she "didn't know enough" to dance tango with
him. To show her how what she already knew could be just as "fancy' as
the other steps she saw people doing, Ken took me out for a double circuit
of the floor. During this dance, he ONLY led simple walk, D8CB, and the
rocking turn or hesitation move that JC Dill called the "hobble step'.
The beginner lady was impressed -- and so was I. It was one of the most
connected dances we had last night!
We have five different instructors we work with regularly, and they ALL
emphasize the ways in which simple components can be connected into
infinitely variable "patterns'. We've also taken advantage of visiting
instructors' workshops or classes, and without exception, they also teach
tango in this way.
The only teachers who haven't, in our experience, are "ballroom" teachers.
Whether this is because ballroom students want the comfort of "learning
patterns" or because ballroom dance teachers don't know how to teach
without patterns, I can't say.
Maybe we've just been lucky. However, judging from the discussion on this
topic and others, it seems we've all come to the same understanding about
Argentine Tango. That it isn't about moving your feet in set patterns. That
the leader should lead and the follower follow, not that these two dancers
should happen to be clutching each other as they each perform their solo
dance.
--Pat
(of Pat&Ken, "just dancing")
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:06:12 -0700
From: "Crowley, Ted (NLC-EX)" <TCrowley @NLC.COM>
Subject: Re: Beginner's Luck
Pat Cummings wrote:
> We have five different instructors we work with regularly, and they ALL
> emphasize the ways in which simple components can be connected into
> infinitely variable "patterns'. We've also taken advantage of visiting
> instructors' workshops or classes, and without exception, they also teach
> tango in this way.
.....
> The only teachers who haven't, in our experience, are "ballroom" teachers.
......
> From this, I conclude that most AT teachers do not, in fact, teach set
> patterns.
>
Pat, I think you have been very lucky. I wonder where you live, to have
5 such teachers near you. My experience has been that, at most AT
classes and workshops, including workshops with well-known names
from Argentina, what is taught is patterns and patterns. Some of the
teachers will teach variations: teaching it first as one pattern and then
later as a second pattern that ends differently. And certainly most teach
some important technique on individual movements within the pattern.
But it has been a long time since I have heard a teacher say a single word
in a class or workshop about "the ways in which simple components can
be connected into infinitely variable patterns" -- much less spend time on
it, much less instruct the students to actually practice this during a
class.
Which is sad, as I believe (as you) that it is the essence of ATango.
There may be an economic issue here. I haven't discussed it with Tango
teachers, but an excellent West Coast Swing teacher (Blake Hobby) once
told me "what most students need most and would get most benefit from
in workshops is lead/follow, styling, movement, frame. But when I or other
teachers I know offer this, few people take the classes. What the students
all seem to want and be willing to pay for is patterns, patterns, patterns".
I wonder if Tango teachers run into the same thing?
-- Ted
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:00:00 +0100
From: Jochen Herdel <jochen.herdel @HD.RHEIN-NECKAR.DE>
Subject: Re: to dance, to confide
quoting: pedersen @BOWDOIN.EDU (Sharon Pedersen)
subject: Re: to dance, to confide (13.09.98)
Sharon,
> > Exactly true. The way the embracing starts... That's the most
> > importent moment of all the 3 minutes that follow. You get
> > "connected" or you don't.
> A bad first dance doesn't mean either of you dances bad. It means
> you both don't know how the other person dances yet.
that's right, very well put, thanks. "Getting connected" right from the
beginning doesn't necessarily mean to have a perfect dance at once. But
it's the feeling you get: You know you'll be able to put it right and
adjust very soon, and you feel well - or you don't.
Bis bald, Jochen.
--
mailto:j.herdel @hd.rhein-neckar.de ** http://www.rhein-neckar.de/~hd
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:02:00 +0100
From: Jochen Herdel <jochen.herdel @HD.RHEIN-NECKAR.DE>
Subject: Re: In defense of rudeness (sort of)
quoting: compadrito @HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Moreno)
subject: Re: In defense of rudeness (sort of) (11.09.98)
> My professional advice is to get help and quick.
[ugly stuff deleted]
TROLL!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:54:37 -0700
From: JC Dill <tango @VO.CNCHOST.COM>
Subject: Cunita (aka Hobble Step)
On 09:20 AM 9/14/98 -0700, Pat Cummings wrote:
>rocking turn or hesitation move that JC Dill called the "hobble step'.
Sent to me the following via private email:
> The term for what you describe as the "hobble step" is cunita.
>see below.
>
>Cunita; Cradle. A forward and backward rocking step done in time with
>the music, done with or without chiches, which is useful for marking
>time or changing direction in a small space. This movement may be
>turned to the left or right and repeated as needed.
Now we can discuss it using the correct Tango term, "cunita".
Cunita question for the list:
Whenever I am led in this move, we seem to always rotate to the leader's
left (in a counter-clockwise manner). Do many leaders lead the cunita in
the other direction, rotating to the right? This seems "backwards, in that
it's backwards of the circular rotation around the dance floor (counter
clockwise). It's also harder to lead the follower to rotate to the
leader's right (in a mollinete or cunita) in that it requires some pressing
with the left hand, it's easier to lead her to the left with simple
movement of the frame and right hand on the follower's shoulder blade.
Does this affect the leader's choice of direction?
jc
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:57:42 EDT
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Junkie
I suppose this list was published before but there are some additions and
there might be people out there who has not seen it before... so enjoy
You know you're a tango-junkie when...
There are strangers who knows your name when you enter a milonga.
In a room of 100 people you recognize everyone's face and can comment on their
dance level.
You have tried to teach tango to your family members.
You go through withdrawal without at least one tango-high per week.
You think good navigational skills is more important than looks.
You have invited complete strangers to your house for overnight stays and
trust them just because they can tango.
You realize you are being swept away.
Your descriptions of tango have shifted from unbound enthusiasm to "you
wouldn't understand..."
Your friends are secrectly plotting to kidnap you for a week of serious
deprogramming.
You know who Carlos Gardel is.
You've stopped saying sorry when you screw up - you just tango out of the
trouble you got into.
You keep a pair of dance shoes in your car.
You wish you paid more attention in high school spanish class.
You've sold or moved most of your furniture to give yourself practice space.
You make sure you never run out of breath mints.
You no longer freak out at the prospect of leading a boleo.
You cross state lines to tango.
You've had the big tango-fight with your partner.
You listen to tango music when you're not at a practica or milonga.
You bring your ankles and knees together all the time.
You plan the rest of your social life so it doesn't conflict with tango
nights. (Until there's nothing else left to conflict with, then you don't have
to worry about it)
You own a bootleg copy of Tango Bar.
Your wardrobe is predominantly black.
Ocho is more than just a number.
Your fantasy travel destination is Buenos Aires.
You are unable to schedule major surgery without compromising
tango commitments.
You now view the world in terms of people who tango and those unfortunate
souls who don't.
You've progressed from the practice hold to full contact tango.
You have to work hard to maintain non-tango friendships (if you have any
left).
You've been dancing a year and still don't get bored talking tango.
You have developed the ability to turn any conversion to tango within 2
minutes.
You no longer have parties at your house; you host milongas.
When you look in the mirror, you are usually looking at your feet.
You've figured out how to find the hidden tango sections in any record store.
Tango never fails to energize, no matter how tired you are.
Before traveling, you check out the net for tango events in that area.
You are willing to spend twice as much time driving to a milonga as you
actually dance.
Your computer passwords at work are always phrases related to tango.
Your ear has been trained to recognize the tango possibilities in all forms of
music.
Subtle moves have begun to reveal themselves (without lessons).
You maintain a phone list of the hardcore tangueros in your area.
You have at least one Kristine Hansen tango poster framed and hanging at home
and/or work.
You bring your own tango CDs to wedding receptions to insure that your
requests will be played.
Tango has diminished, if not ruined, the appeal of every other dance you ever
did.
Little else in your life gets done compared to your pre-tango days.
Your passion-index is much higher compared to your pre-tango days.
What pre-tango days?
You have become nocturnal.
You have been spotted dancing tango in parking lots.
You automatically do something Tango-ish whenever you navigate through a
crowd.
"Love me for how I dance" started to make more sense than "Love me for who I
am".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:58:23 +0100
From: Manuel Patino <manuelp @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Beginner's Luck
At 12:06 PM 9/14/98 -0700, Crowley, Ted (NLC-EX) wrote:
>Pat, I think you have been very lucky. I wonder where you live, to have
>5 such teachers near you. My experience has been that, at most AT
>classes and workshops, including workshops with well-known names
>from Argentina, what is taught is patterns and patterns. Some of the
>teachers will teach variations: teaching it first as one pattern and then
>later as a second pattern that ends differently. And certainly most teach
>some important technique on individual movements within the pattern.
Although the above paragraph is correct, there is another way to look at
this issue. It is missleading to say that all that these instructors teach
is patterns and more patterns. Most if not all of the A/T teachers that
I've had teach movement, posture, lead and follow. The use of (small)
patterns is a didactic device. We use short patterns to explicate the
movement, posture, lead, follow techniques, etc.
>But it has been a long time since I have heard a teacher say a single word
>in a class or workshop about "the ways in which simple components can
>be connected into infinitely variable patterns" -- much less spend time on
>it, much less instruct the students to actually practice this during a
>class.
>
>Which is sad, as I believe (as you) that it is the essence of ATango.
Again, I have heard the teachers talk at length and show how the patterns
are made up of the techniques they impart. In an on-going class, it is
easier to build on the small parts (movements, steps if you will) to show
how thesess can be strung together in different ways. In the workshops it
is more difficult for the teachers to do more than to show the pattern and
the components that compose it. This is not bad, it is as good as can be
done with the available time.
>There may be an economic issue here. I haven't discussed it with Tango
>teachers, but an excellent West Coast Swing teacher (Blake Hobby) once
>told me "what most students need most and would get most benefit from
>in workshops is lead/follow, styling, movement, frame. But when I or other
>teachers I know offer this, few people take the classes. What the students
>all seem to want and be willing to pay for is patterns, patterns, patterns".
>I wonder if Tango teachers run into the same thing?
>
>-- Ted
The other night we went to a local club where they offer group lessons on
Salsa. Here we experienced what I believe is the pattern teaching syndrome.
The instuctors taught nothing but patterns of steps. Over and over but
without explaining how to move or paying attention to individuals. This is
a very different style of teaching. I believe it is more prevalent in some
ballroom dance studios. I'm sure that some people find these methods very
useful and instructive. Also, it might be easier to handle groups in this
manner for their style of dance, I don't know. For me, this was not a
useful lesson. I found the learning to be difficult and did not get
absorbed. If this is what Ted is talking about I agree in his judgement.
OTOH, I have not experienced this in A/T except in a couple of occasions.
We've also found that many students prefer to be taught in an organic way.
They like to learn to move, move to the music, lead and follow, and
specially they want to be able to string a dance together from the steps
they learn. I can't remember if anyone ever asked to be taught patterns.
Manuel
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:09:29 -0500
From: "Stephen P. Brown" <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Beginner's Luck
>>Ted wrote:
>>My experience has been that, at most AT classes and workshops, including
>>workshops with well-known names from Argentina, what is taught is patterns
>>and patterns.
Manuel replied:
>Although the above paragraph is correct, there is another way to look at
>this issue. It is missleading to say that all that these instructors teach
>is patterns and more patterns.
I agree that at a superficial level many instructors appear to teach
patterns and more patterns. But I would also argue that many instructors
who are attempting to use short patterns to explicate the movement,
posture, lead, follow techniques, etc. are less than explicit about what
they are attempting to teach.
Ted:
>>But it has been a long time since I have heard a teacher say a single word
>>in a class or workshop about "the ways in which simple components can
>>be connected into infinitely variable patterns" -- much less spend time on
>>it, much less instruct the students to actually practice this during a
>>class.
Manuel:
>Again, I have heard the teachers talk at length and show how the patterns
>are made up of the techniques they impart. In an on-going class, it is
>easier to build on the small parts (movements, steps if you will) to show
>how thesess can be strung together in different ways.
To me it seems that Manuel is translating Ted's simple components into
techniques, which does not seem to capture my take on what Ted wrote. It
is my experience that the majority of instructors teach step patterns. A
number teach technique within the step pattern. Very few instructors
teach the building blocks from which the steps are constructed--walking,
grapevines, etc. Of those that regularly tour North America to teach,
Alberto Paz, Daniel Trenner, Rebecca Shulman and the Puglieses are among
the few who are explicit in teaching these building blocks. Of the 40
video tapes I have reviewed, only the Puglieses' and Daniel's (with and
without Rebecca) tapes cover the building blocks of Argentine tango.
Ted:
>>There may be an economic issue here.
Many do approach tango as a dance of figures, which is amazing when you
think of the milongueros that constantly say how important it is to
master walking. Of course, only a few professors actually teach walking
skills. Many students are left to practice on their own with little
guidance about what walking is. And, I know people who have taken
workshops from professors who teach such skills and then seem NOT to
have not put any time into mastering walking.
Nonetheless, I believe that Daniel and Rebecca have been able to earn a
living teaching concepts. Something other than economics may be working
here. I suspect that most professors teach the way that they themselves
have learned.
--Steve de Tejas
My independent reviews of 41 videos offering
in Argentine tango (NFI):
<http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/revu-1.htm>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:39:58 -0700
From: Pat Cummings <drpat @AHT.COM>
Subject: Re: Beginner's Luck
Ted Crowley wrote:
>Pat, I think you have been very lucky. I wonder where you live, to have
>5 such teachers near you. My experience has been that, at most AT
>classes and workshops, including workshops with well-known names
>from Argentina, what is taught is patterns and patterns...
I live in Orange County and work in the LA area. My first (and =
continuing)=20
teachers are Cesar and Patricia (Cesar Ricuarte and Patricia Reeves), =
who teach=20
three levels of Argentine Tango class each Sunday before the regular =
Club=20
Danzarin milonga in Orange County. =20
They tend to teach at the intermediate level by the following method:
- We start with a period of general exercises to warm up, and to develop =
balance and improve our walk/movement. =20
- Then either a new figure is introduced or an old one is picked for =
embellishment.
-First Cesar and Patricia perform the figure several times within the =
context of a dance
- Then they break it into its component steps, and we practice the foot =
placement, posture and frame apart from a partner. =20
- Then we "partner up" and practice moving into the figure, until the =
lead is well understood.
- Then we practice the figure itself, halting at the close of the new =
component.
- THEN we have a period of "free practice", during which the =
(intermediate level) dancers can discover/play with different exits from =
the new figure.
- During the "partner-up" part of the class, partners are rotated =
frequently, and either teacher can call a halt to answer a question, =
point out a styling suggestion, or correct any general problems they =
see.
- Finally, they encourage pairs of students to come out to floor for a =
quick "solo performance" of the new figure. (I think these performances =
are the key to getting the men interested in being creative, because =
they each compete to come up with a different way to enter or exit the =
new figure!)
Even though they present a "new or improved" figure for each class, I =
think it=20
serves more as a focus than a cookie-cutter "pattern". Perhaps this is =
the=20
answer to the teacher's dilemma of meeting the demand for "patterns and =
patterns".
Our favorite other "beginner" teacher is Sherry Robertson from San =
Diego, who=20
often teaches the beginner's group at Steve Manchester's twice-monthly =
milonga=20
at the Mayflower Ballroom. Sherry has a way of presenting the D8CB =
that makes=20
it clear right from the start that it is "constructed" from three (or =
four) other elements.=20
Michael (Espinosa) and Yolanda (Rossi) have taught us a great deal about =
dancing=20
on a crowded or small floor, at various venues in the LA area.. They =
also use a=20
figure as a starting point to teach methods for navigating, connecting, =
and expressing=20
the passion of tango, even in a restricted space. Michael is a tall =
gentleman, too, so=20
his ability to retain the grace and feeling of the dance while =
maneuvering with his=20
partner on a crowded floor is an excellent example for the most gangly =
and awkward=20
beginners. The beauty is, he manages to TEACH the men in his classes =
that it is=20
appropriate for a man to be graceful! Then he shows them how...
I've already sung the praises of Gavito as a workshop leader. Again, he =
showed us=20
how to approach the dance, not how to do each "step". We've also taken =
workshops=20
from Sandor and Tiffany, and Claudio and Veronica. These last four are =
students of=20
Orlando Paiva, and acknowledged dancers in their own right.
So, yes, I do think I have been fortunate. But the teacher is only half =
of the equation.=20
The students are the other half. I have never understood why someone =
would pay for=20
a lesson, even a group lesson, then ignore the instructor! I also can't =
figure out why=20
someone would "promote themselves" into the next level class, especially =
if the=20
teacher says "this is NOT for the beginner student". Yet I see both =
these things=20
happen on a regular basis. And I notice that the self-promoted, or =
self-absorbed=20
students don't improve as rapidly, dance as well, or connect with other =
partners as=20
easily. So some of the problem is students who want to DO the dance =
without=20
LEARNING the dance...
I think we all get more from a class when we watch if the teacher says =
"watch", wait=20
when the teacher says "wait", dance as the teacher directs, and CHANGE=20
PARTNERS even if we wind up dancing with the class clown! =20
Manual Patino commented on a pattern-teaching class:
>...The instuctors taught nothing but patterns of steps. Over and over=20
>but without explaining how to move or paying attention to individuals.=20
>This is a very different style of teaching. I believe it is more =
prevalent in=20
>some ballroom dance studios. ... Also, it might be easier to handle =
groups=20
>in this manner for their style of dance, I don't know. For me, this was =
not=20
>a useful lesson. I found the learning to be difficult
That has been exactly our experience with the two "schools" where AT was =
taught AS patterns, rather than USING patterns. For whatever reason =
(probably=20
because that's how they learned), ballroom dance teachers find this a =
comfortable=20
way to teach. It doesn't, however (IMHO), communicate the culture, =
feeling OR=20
performance of Argentine Tango. So maybe the fortunate experience we =
have=20
had has come from our unwillingness to pay for Fox-Trot Tango once we =
identified=20
the source of the teaching style!=20
Interestingly, Sherry (one of our regular teachers, see above) teaches =
from a well-
known "ballroom AT" studio, yet she manages not to partake of the =
pattern mentality.=20
So it isn't a "universal characteristic"...
--Pat =20
(of Pat&Ken, just walkin' by, and suddenly, we were dancing...)
=00
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:54:34 GMT
From: Ed Loomis <edl @WCO.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Cunita (aka Hobble Step)
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:54:37 -0700, JC Dill <tango @VO.CNCHOST.COM>
wrote:
>Sent to me the following via private email:
>
>> The term for what you describe as the "hobble step" is cunita.
>>see below.
>>
>>Cunita; Cradle. A forward and backward rocking step done in time with
>>the music, done with or without chiches, which is useful for marking
>>time or changing direction in a small space. This movement may be
>>turned to the left or right and repeated as needed.
>
>Now we can discuss it using the correct Tango term, "cunita".
>
>Cunita question for the list:
>
>Whenever I am led in this move, we seem to always rotate to the leader's
>left (in a counter-clockwise manner). Do many leaders lead the cunita =
in
>the other direction, rotating to the right? This seems "backwards, in =
that
>it's backwards of the circular rotation around the dance floor (counter
>clockwise). It's also harder to lead the follower to rotate to the
>leader's right (in a mollinete or cunita) in that it requires some =
pressing
>with the left hand, it's easier to lead her to the left with simple
>movement of the frame and right hand on the follower's shoulder blade.
>Does this affect the leader's choice of direction?
>
>jc
Although it is easier to turn this step to the left, Nora Dinzelbacher
teaches her students to turn it in both directions. The man should be
able to lead this by simply turning his frame in the desired direction
while rocking. The primary utility of this figure occurs when traffic
on the dance floor stalls and the leader needs to keep in motion with
the rhythm and to make changes of direction virtually in place. The
line of dance, at this point, is something you are hoping will
reestablish itself.=20
--=20
"Truth is the beginning of every good thing, both in heaven
and on earth and he who would be blessed and happy should be
from the first a partaker of the truth, for then he can be=20
trusted." Plato
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:01:40 -0700
From: "Hosea, Fred" <hoseafr @KPHEALTHCARE.ORG>
Subject: Not In defense of Rudeness
Dear Mata,
One of the uninvited liabilities of being part of this list is the
participation of, oh probably half a dozen boors who periodically use
this public forum as an excuse to carry out self-important snipings,
emotional dumping, or armchair pyschoanalysis about the alleged motives,
needs, foibles and dysfunctions of other list members. It usually tends
to be contemptuous and hurtful -- or sometimes sarcastically "caring"
in tone, closing with ironic "abrazos."
It is the sort of behavior which would, under real social circumstances,
result in the boors never being invited again to a milonga. I've
repeatedly suggested, perhaps naively, that the milonga should be a
standard for how we treat each other here on the List. But since "free
expression of ideas" seems to be more important to some than good taste,
wisdom or constructiveness, we are destined to endure their occasional
intrusions much as we resign ourselves to poison oak in a nice walk
through the woods.
Although Mr. Moreno says that mental health is his "business," I have
my doubts. Neither the tone nor content of his messages is very healing
or educational, and they certainly raise questions about his level of
professionalism, however he may make his living. He should know from
his graduate ethics coursework that a public email forum is scarcely an
appropriate vehicle for purveying his unsolicitied speculations about
another List member's sexual needs or problems or "performance."
The fact that he would foist his own peculiar interpretations on another
list member, and attempt to ennoble his musings as his "professional
opinion," in a public forum where such professional opinions are de
facto inappropriate, would be, in many states, a basis for an official
complaint to his professional association and to the state Licensing
Board. Perhaps professional standards are lower in his locale, in which
case he is the beneficiary, not we.
At least we have the consolation that he's not charging us on an hourly
basis for misplaced, professionally inappropriate opinions.
> ----------
> From: Sramana Mitra[SMTP:sramana @IX.NETCOM.COM]
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 8:12 AM
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: In defense of rudeness (sort of)
>
> Ray,
>
> This is disgusting!
>
> Sramana
>
> Ray Moreno wrote:
> >
> > >Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:08:54 -0400
> > >From: Mata Stevenson <matas @WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> > >Subject: Re: In defense of rudeness (sort of)
> > >If anyone who has been in this position has any advice, I would
> >really
> > appreciate hearing it. As it is now, though I have an >excellent
> > partner, I'm not really happy and feel out-of-synch with >the
> community.
> > I feel that, since I have my "own personal partner" I >can't dance
> with
> > other's possible partners, and I'm not getting >asked because I'm
> out of
> > circulation, it seems.
> >
> > Hello Mata,
> > My professional advice is to get help and quick.
> > What you describe could be attributed to a sexual dysfunctional
> syndrome
> > which is played into a scenery far removed from the bedroom, where
> it
> > should be resolved.
> > You have what many individuals wish for in life. An excellent
> partner
> > who is married to you, who is loyal to you, who cares only about
> you,
> > who takes on an activity he may not particularly be excited about,
> to
> > please you.
> > In turn, you go public to express your unhappiness, your sense of
> not
> > belonging to an imaginary community and your longing for the company
> of
> > other men.
> > In my experience, the ulterior motive for this kind of behavior is
> to
> > send a message to the person who on the surface behaves so kindly
> but in
> > the bedroom is a poor performer.
> > Sometimes the process is reversed, and the person projecting the
> > unhappiness is the one who chokes in the intimacy department.
> > These are very complicated games that only lead to destructive
> > behavior. Most of the times innocent bystanders are the ones who get
> > hurt.
> > Get help, you and nice Mr. Stevenson.
> >
> > -Ray
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> --
>
> **********************************************************************
> **
> Sramana Mitra, President & CEO, Intarka
>
> 2001 Gateway Place, Suite 440W, San Jose, CA 95110
> Work : T: (408)-467-4205 F: (408)-573-1430
> Home : T: (650)-938-5715 F: (650)-938-5716
> Email : sramana @daistech.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:01:27 -0400
From: Mata Stevenson <matas @ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: In defense of rudeness (sort of)
Ray Moreno wrote:
> Hello Mata,
> My professional advice is to get help and quick.
> What you describe could be attributed to a sexual dysfunctional syndrome
> which is played into a scenery far removed from the bedroom, where it
> should be resolved.
> You have what many individuals wish for in life. An excellent partner
> who is married to you, who is loyal to you, who cares only about you,
> who takes on an activity he may not particularly be excited about, to
> please you.
> In turn, you go public to express your unhappiness, your sense of not
> belonging to an imaginary community and your longing for the company of
> other men.
Oh, Ray, of the sharpest fangs on the list1 I don't think you understand me
or the problem. Most of the people I tango with (either as partners or in
their company) rarely even think of sex when they're dancing. They're mostly
young and have other outlets. Sometimes a partnering/connection is very
good, even sublime! Sometimes it's sexy. Sometimes it's exhausting,
sometimes frustrating.... Mostly we're dancing with a feeling of passion for
the dance, and I hope you're not missing that. There's really a difference
between the tango of today (found all over the world) and the tango of old!
It's my belief that avoiding dancing with partners other than one's spouse
or date results more often from a lack of confidence in one's skill, a low
level of communal commitment, or a lack of "outgoingness." My husband IS an
excellent partner, and I appreciate his generosity in taking part in my
tango. I don't think he thinks anyone misses out in not dancing with him
with all the excellent dancers around. And I don't really think he'll change
his attitude. So be it! I certainly haven't hesitated to air my "grievance"
in front of him. I really just wanted to present a case study of a dancing
couple who don't feel the same way about "dancing around," and it's not as a
result of the woman being predatory! My request for advice was really for
assistance in boosting confidence in dance skills.
Your professional advice? I don't want to ask, because that would call for a
reply. I hate to think.
Mata
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:16:57 -0400
From: Jeff Allen <dancebook @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: leading to the cross
Hi Ted and List Members,
You bring up some good points in leading to the cross. As a teacher I try to
establish an idea with my students that the actions and functions of leading
happen sequentially, that is parts of body must move at different moments
within the limitations of a single dance step and its timing. The lateral
assemblies of the body; shoulders, ribcage, and hips, are often used to rotate
in directions different from the general progressive movement of the couple.
This allows for a reciprocal response from your partner and on this occasion
would establish the space necessary to complete the crossing action without
hand manipulation. Hand manipulation in leading often causes an instinctive
and protective response from a partner (causing them to stop or jerk
momentarily) while the subtle rotations of the body's lateral assemblies
encourages, an instinct to travel, into the desired position. Pulling, pushing,
or yanking of any kind triggers a negative movement response in an attempt for
the brain and body to protect itself. Sudden pressure at the top of anyone's
body causes them to hold on or attempt to (grabbing your partner). I have
written about leading, following, rotation, etc. generally and then
specifically about pattern types, in my book, Quickstart To Tango.
Kind Regards,
Jeff Allen
Crowley, Ted (NLC-EX) wrote:
> When I first learned Tango I was taught to "lead" the woman
> to the cross, where "lead" meant to guide her body's motion
> in a curved path using our hand/arm/frame. This was far more
> complex than simply a nudge with the hand, and took a while
> to learn to do, but it works well, even with semi-beginners.
> For simplicity let me call this an "arm lead".
>
> Later when I re-learned Tango, we were taught not to "push
> her over there" in any way, but instead to walk forward to her
> left (while adjusting so my body still faces hers), and the
> followers were taught that our right leg passing her right
> on the outside was her signal to cross next unless the leader
> changes it to something else in time: a "leg lead".
>
> After a bit more learning my concept of this "leg lead" changed
> to include not just stepping outside but also the relative direction
> that she is moving (because of how I am moving, and our connection).
> Changing this allows walking outside her without leading a cross.
> So the "leg lead" became is perhaps a "direction lead"?
>
> In recent posts I've read that the cross lead involves "making space
> for the woman to move over" to the cross, and the lead to not cross
> is "don't make the space", or someone said "block her" from moving there. I
> confess that I don't understand these
> concepts. If we are dancing pressed together, her crosses will
> adjust by being very small, so even then she has room to cross.
> My guess is that this "space" thing is what I am thinking of as
> the "direction lead", but thought of in a different way (which may
> make it easier to grasp and learn, for some people). Or perhaps
> not and it is a 3d approach. Please inform me!?
>
> I don't know which of these methods is most "correct" or "authentic".
>
> Recently when using the "direction lead" I found some followers didn't
> cross, or even complained that I didn't "lead them to". When I changed
> to using an "arm lead" they were happy and followed well. But others
> always cross whenever I am to their left. So in order to dance comfortably
> with everyone, I try to use both at once.
>
> And any time I walk forward to my partners left and do not want her
> to cross I am careful to be clear where we are going so she won't
> cross. And I'm alert to adjust if she crosses anyway, since I only
> succeed (in her not crossing) about 80% of the time.
--
"Quickstart To Tango" http://home.earthlink.net/~dancebook/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:20:09 -0400
From: Jeff Allen <dancebook @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Tango Links and Tango Tales
Hi List Members,
We have added a Tango link page to our site. We would love to provide
reciprocal links with your sites to continue to share information etc.
My partner Whitney has posted an article she has written along with
pictures of our New York Tango adventure. You may view it through our
Tango Links page. The article was published in the current edition of
the RI USABDA newsletter. Please take a peek.
Kind Regards,
Jeff Allen
"Quickstart To Tango" please visit http://home.earthlink.net/~dancebook/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:55:09 +0300
From: Didem Kalkan <DidemK @AYGAZ.COM.TR>
Subject: Re: Tango dancing in London ? (And in Oxford?)
Hello Christian and hello the other tangueros/tangueras of tango-L
It is really a nice surprise for me, because I wanted to ask exactly the
same question to the list.
I will attend to an LPG Business Course being held in Oxford from 28-30
September. I don't know if there is any AT dancing opportunity in
Oxford, but I've heard about very good milongas in London.
The following web page address is really helpful
(www.elonce.dircon.co.uk), but I don't know whether it is up-to-date or
not...
I'll stay in London on Saturday 26th and on Wednesday 30th.
And these are recommended by Tango El Once:
For Wednesday:
TANGOMANIA
Lyndhurst Hall, Warden Road, Kentish Town, NW5
9pm - Midnight
Tel: 0171 281 5869 / 690 5835
EL PALACIO DEL TANGO
Kingswood House, Seeley Drive, Dulwich, SE21
8 - 11pm
And for Saturday:
EL ONCE CLUB DE TANGO
Central Club Hotel, 16-22 Great Russell Street (off Tottenham Court
Rd)., WC1
9.45pm - 2am Tel: 0171 582 0910
TANGUSHKA
Babushka, 41 Tavistock Crescent, W11
4pm - 7pm Tel: 0171 221 4643
"LAS ESTRELLAS"
2-3, Inverness Mews, W2
9pm - 2am Tel: 0171 221 8170
FOREVER PIAZZOLLA TANGO
Grafton Ballroom, Village Way, Dulwich Village, Dulwich.
8pm - Midnight
Tel: 0181 291 4977
RUBY'S CLUB
49 Carnaby Street, W1.
8.30pm - Midnight
Unfortunately, I have only two nights in London, so I want to dance in
the most beautiful atmosphere with the most beautiful music.
Please write your advices (for London and also for Oxford)
Thank you very much...
Love and greetings from Turkey to all of you :)
Didem
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Steer [SMTP:christian_steer @BMDWB1.BBN.HP.COM]
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 1998 10:22 PM
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Tango dancing in London ?
>
> Hi,
> I will visit London at the end of september, and I would
> like to know some Tango dancing opportunities. Any information
> about where or whom to contact would be fine. Thanks
>
> Christian
>
> (Privat reply please to taru @gmx.net)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:45:59 +0200
From: Isidoro FERRANTE <ferrante @GALILEO.PI.INFN.IT>
Subject: Tango in Santander
I will be around Santander (Spain) for a week.
I still don't know if I will have spare time, but in any case it will be
useful to know wether there are milongas in the region.
Private replies, thanks.
____________________________________Isidoro___________________________
Isidoro Ferrante ferrante @galileo.pi.infn.it
Dipartimento di Fisica ferrante @axpia.pi.infn.it
Universita' di Pisa Tel +39 50 880284 (INFN Pisa)
INFN sezione di Pisa Fax +39 50 880317 (INFN Pisa)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:50:32 -0500
From: Karen Whitesell <kglass @IPA.NET>
Subject: The NYC Experience
Dear List,
Well, what can I say. I have been to tango heaven. True to its
reputation, Manhattan is the best tango scene I have ever danced. I
danced lessons, practicas, milongas, and gala events. I danced the
studios, the restaurants, and the parks. My tango shoes touched the
buttersoft floor of Triangulo, the figured tile of La Belle Epoque, and
the weathered brick of Central Park. On one given night, there were 4
choices to go. In one week, there were 16!
New York City, the city of extremes, and everything in between.
I danced with the young and the eager, and the old and the wiser. I
danced with the teachers, and I danced with the taught.
I saw a lot of women leaders, but did not see any men followers. In
lessons, I sometimes would lead when there weren't enough leaders.
I followed for the beginner, dancing my part whether he lead it or not.
I followed for the experimentals, stepping true to the beat, as they
franticly fancied their steps. I followed the coaches who were telling
me, "No, no, step this way, no, no step that way." I followed the
leader that led me to step anywhere he wanted me.
But mostly, I followed for the pleasure of the dance; the pleasure of
the embrace, and the pleasure of receiving the lead. Someitmes it was
only through the chest, sometimes only with hands and arms, sometimes a
combination of both. But always a challenge to test one's adaptive
skills.
I watched the new Tiomas pushing ahead with dramatic fever, only to be
looking back to the older Gavitos and Danels who are refueling their
passions with a continuous source of tricks for the trade.
A new trick I brought back was the cross basic. Daniel Trenner's videos
have always taught walking in crossfeet, but I had never seen it taught
from any other teacher. Two studios (Stepping Out and Dance New York)
were teaching the cross basic:
Lady's part is the same, but man's lead is to double time before walking
to the cross, thereby stepping out to the side of lady on the left foot,
then right, then hold for the cross with the left foot still back, then
step left, right, together, for the resolution.
It's like leading an ocho, but walk out instead. Side, together, walk,
walk, hold for cross, step, step, together.
Again, it's the extremes that make us take notice...But, as with
anywhere you dance, the place doesn't matter, it's the people that make
it a success. Thanks to Tango-L people for making me feel welcome,
thanks to my hostess, Lucy, for introducing me to friendly faces.
I saw old friends from other trips and met special new friends. Like
Lucille, hostess of Esmeralda's Irregular Tango Party, Hit'n' Run in the
Park, and other gala events. She, along with others like Art, and
Gerald, and Richard, are all helping to promote what they love, the
tango.
Thanks, New York City, for the dance
Karen
of Missouri
------------------------------
End of TANGO-L Digest - 14 Sep 1998 to 15 Sep 1998
**************************************************