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TANGO-L Digest - 24 Feb 1998 to 25 Feb 1998
There are 11 messages totalling 579 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Searchable Archive of Tango-L list
2. Tango as Courtship (2)
3. Gender diff. New quote of the day
4. Argentine Tango Arturo's Perspective of Argentine Tango
5. About a culture's accent in a dance.
6. Tango and Argentine Culture
7. Tuesday Tango in the Sth Bay, SF, California
8. <No subject given>
9. Tues Tango callses in SF - correction
10. Is Argentine Tango changing?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:05:59 -0800
From: Djun Kim <djun @MATH.UBC.CA>
Subject: Searchable Archive of Tango-L list
Dear Tango enthusiasts,
I'd like to announce the availability of an on-line,
searchable archive of this mailing list, at
http://SunSITE.UBC.CA/TangoBC/Tango-L/
I hope that this will help to make the collected
insight of past contributors more easily accessible.
I have all of the archived digests which I've
been able to find on the 'Net, readable online,
and searchable via an InfoSEEK engine. Please
try it out and let me know what improvements you'd
like to see.
There's currently a bit of a gap in the archive -
if someone has the back-issues, please let me know.
Also, I haven't yet automated the inclusion of new
articles. (I'm hoping to set it up as a HyperNews
gateway, in the next few weeks).
Best regards, Djun Kim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:18:11 -0800
From: J Lane <jiml @HALCYON.COM>
Subject: Tango as Courtship
>Perhaps many people do not understand or choose to ignore the
>cultural heritage of Argentine Tango. That is something I cannot
>do.
I vaguely recall that you're an Argentine ex-pat - am I remembering
that right? You carry the culture you were raised in with you; so
do us gringos. AT necessarily changes when done outside BA. Is that
a problem?
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:21:29 -0800
From: J Lane <jiml @HALCYON.COM>
Subject: Gender diff. New quote of the day
Jacques Gauthier <jgauthier @PROXIMA.CA>
>J Lane wrote:
>> And the presence or absence of intent, the importance of
>>that presence or absence, and the implications of that, seem
>>to be the major thing you and I disagree about.
>Oy my head reading reading that last sentence. :-)
It's been said that pain and suffering are a traditional part
of Argentine Tango. You should thank me for eliciting that
feeling so well in print.
:-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:52:10 EST
From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Argentine Tango Arturo's Perspective of Argentine Tango
Hi Jim....and the Tango-L:
There seems to be some ongoing criticism of the dancers of Argentine Tango
who are not from Argentina, that no matter what they do they cannot achieve
the "authentic quality" that only "portenos from Buenos Aires" can achieve.
At first I did not accept this premise.......after several years of learning/
teaching
Argentine Tango, however, I am beginning to understand certain "indisputable
facts". It has taken some considerable soul-searching and introspective
analysis.
If you are Russian and you attempt to speak English, the English you speak
will
probably carry a Russian accent! It is difficult to avoid! If you are
German and you learn to speak English, it follows that you will retain a
German accent. Southerners who go to New York find the language spoken in
New York City significantly different from where they originated and vice
versa!
I am a Florida resident! Speak with a New York accent! My newly learned
Spanish
that I am acquiring (slowly but surely) from associating with "Latinos" is
quickly recognizable by Spanish speaking people as having a "Norte Americano
Gringo" accent! I cannot escape my "heritage"! If I am to learn and speak
true "Spanish", I was advised that I would have to go somewhere to live in
a Spanish speaking country (or environment ) and immerse my self in the
"language as well as the culture"! I am not in the least seeking to disguise
myself as a Latino....I am simply trying to learn how to communicate
better.....if I have an accent and you do understand me ( I can make myself
understood) my mission will be accomplished.
I have spent a "lifetime" becoming who I "am"! When I came into the Argentine
Cultural environment, I willingly and readily accepted the conversion of my
name from "Arthur" to "Arturo"! Most of my close friends are "Latino". It
has seemed much easier for them to remember and pronounce "Arturo" than
"Arthur!" My wife, Helen, reluctantly accepted the conversion of her name to,
"Elena". When I went to teach at the Argentine Cultural Center they
preferred us to be known as "Arturo & Elena" so we assumed a "suggested" cloak
of the Latino names. When I discovered that most of the officers of the
Argentine Cultlural Association were of the Jewish faith, and had similar
cultural values to mine, I began to get some very interesting new and better
perspective of just what is and what is not Argentine! I have taught many
Argentines to do Argentine Tango! Most of them are convinced (their own
conclusion) that I was from Argentina!
I have found it near impossible to eliminate the American accent from my
Spanish speaking capability. I have spoken English (American version) for my
entire life. It is part of me! I do not feel that it can go away simply by
adopting a new name or studying a new language or learning to do authentic
Agentine Tango! I am fairly "literate and articulate" in the useage of
American English. Not even brain surgery can change me from American to
Argentine! At first, when I started to learn Argentine Tango, I was told that
the Tango that I was developing was Argentine ......but the ultimate result of
all my "relearning and reorientation" and my Buenos Aires excursions, dancing
in Milongas , and my association with Latinos (many Cubans, Argentinians,
Columbians, Venezuelans, etc.) have resulted in my learning to dance an
Argentine Tango that can only be called "Tango Arturo"! It is Argenine Tango
with an American "flavor! I am a Miami Porteno! Whenever Tango is exported
from Argentina it will be changed to suit the new recipient. I was told that
there are no rules in Tango! Just get out on the dance floor and create! I
am and will continue to do just that.
My "Russian-Jewish" heritage is still within me. Absolutely unchangeable and
not removeable! It is the basis of anything and everything I do, including
Argentine Tango.
I have "abandoneoned" (abandoned) the 40 or so years of all the other
ballroom dancing that was so dear to me while learning and dancing while
growing through teenage and continuing to enjoy through my entire adult
lifetime.
If you kept the Argentine Tango in Buenos Aires it would continue to be as
pure as the Portenos would like to keep it...........but is it changing? even
in Buenos Aires?
You bet your sweet gancho! Argentines are changing the Tango as well as the
foreign recipients. My super Argentine teachers have suggested that they
might succeed better with me if they were to give me blood transfusion. I
doubt that it will help! Gournicht helfen! :-)
I was told by a great Argentine dance couple that within the past few years
their Tango had undergone significant changes every three months. It is, they
said,"......a natural evolution of their maturation process!" I tend to agree
with them! My Tango....Tango Arturo is also changing. And at a rapid rate!
I'm not at all certain that it is changing for the better........but it is
changing.......significantly and of late in a more predictable
direction.......with maturity and better understanding. Is it an Argentine
product? When I demonstrated my Tango to several Argentine Tango teachers,
they all seemed to be in agreement that what I was doing was better named,
"Tango Arturo"! I thought about that for a while and find that "acceptable to
me!" Arturo, you have taken the basic premise and personalized it to suit
your personality and life style! Unavoidable! Without a doubt!
You can bet on it! Has my Tango been authorized to be Arthurized? Of
course! Don't fight it! These "Dance Masters" advised me to, "Dance who you
are! Not who you are trying to imitate who might dance the better more
authentic Argentine way! It will not work for new learners. I am certain
that It truly has not worked for me! And I am almost certain that this
is currently a premise that will evolve into an absolute truth! And your
thoughts??????? Et vous???????? What is the truth ?
Sincerely,
Arturo
AHGberg @aol.com
West Palm Beach, Florida, USA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:57:49 -0500
From: Jacques Gauthier <jgauthier @PROXIMA.CA>
Subject: About a culture's accent in a dance.
Hello,
Someone on the list recently commented that
North Americans tend to "hop" when dancing
and Latinos tend to "dig in the floor". (I forget
the exact words). His comments got me
thinking about something.
In ancient times, dancing was something done
to honor the spirits of animals before and after
the hunt. Humans honored the animals before
so that the beast spirit would send prey their
way and they honored the animals after the
hunt to give thanks for the bounty of the day.
The dancing was done to heavy banging sound
as percussion instruments were the first type of
musical instruments. The noise generated by
such dancing also had the beneficial side effect
that it kept wild animals away. (Hence if you
don't honor the beasts during the night they will
come and attack your camp).
Now imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
When thanking a beast spirit for bounty,
primitive tribes would wear a mask and would
either act out the hunt or imitate the beast
through dance around the campfire. North
American tribes were known to honor the
beast spirits, as well as the African and
European tribes. (as evidenced in cave
paintings).
In Africa, the main big animals that provide food
includes these large mammals such as: gazelles,
elephants, rhino, waterbuffalo, crocodiles, zebra, antilopes
When imitating these animals through dance, there
would only be the gazelle that would be hopping
around. The rest are grounded prey that don't jump.
(As most have short legs when compared to the
rest of their bodies).
In Northern Europe and North America there was: The
Wholly Mammoth (hunted to extinction in
North America), reindeer, buffalo, cows,
hare & rabbits, moose, deer, goats, sheep,
horse. Many more of this prey hops around
as they have long legs when compared to
their bodies.
Now tribes of Europe and North America
honoring the spirits of the animals would
therefore hop around more than those of
Africa. Therefore the dancing style of
cultures North America would have more
hopping than those of Africa.
People no longer honor the spirits of their
daily food but the dancing remained. The
old dances influenced the new ones and so
on.
As for the latin american dance culture, it
is in very big part African dance culture that
came with the slaves in those parts of the world.
Jacques G.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Putt's Law:
Technology is dominated by two types of people:
Those who understand what they do not manage.
Those who manage what they do not understand.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:17:14 -0800
From: Flor de Mina <flordemina @ROCKETMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango and Argentine Culture
Hi Everyone:
Arturo offers what I find to be a very interesting perspective. He
wrote:
>I have found it near impossible to eliminate the American accent
from >my Spanish speaking capability. I have spoken English (American
>version) for my entire life. It is part of me! I do not feel that
it >can go away simply by adopting a new name or studying a new
language >or learning to do authentic Agentine Tango! <snip> At
first, when I >started to learn Argentine Tango, I was told that the
Tango that I was >developing was Argentine ......but the ultimate
result of all my >"relearning and reorientation" and my Buenos Aires
excursions, dancing >in Milongas , and my association with Latinos
(many Cubans, >Argentinians, Columbians, Venezuelans, etc.) have
resulted in my >learning to dance an Argentine Tango that can only be
called "Tango >Arturo"! <snip>
>When I demonstrated my Tango to several Argentine Tango teachers,
they >all seemed to be in agreement that what I was doing was better
named, >"Tango Arturo"! <snip> These "Dance Masters" advised me to,
"Dance who >you are!"
Having not seen Arturo dance, I cannot offer any direct comments,
other than to say it appears that Arturo is very concerned that some
may criticize him for a lack of authenticity which he feels is
unjustified. His trips to Buenos Aires and the comfort or discomfor
he found in dancing there is probably more important than any outside
judgements.
Arturo also wrote:
>There seems to be some ongoing criticism of the dancers of Argentine
>Tango who are not from Argentina, that no matter what they do they
>cannot achieve the "authentic quality" that only "portenos from
Buenos >Aires" can achieve.
I think this statement has an element of truth, but it is a bit of an
exaggeration. What I think is the case is that the ballroom and
hollywood forms of Tango miss the point of Argentine Tango. Argentine
Tango is about a relationship between a man and a woman. As practiced
in BsAs, Argentine Tango has a much closer and intimate embrace. It
has an obvious sexuality. Yes, we dance who we are, but Argentine
Tango gives us an opportunity to dance all that we are, to be more in
touch with otherselves, as well as our partner. ;-)
What I am trying to say is that many North Americans find themselves
in for a shock when they visit milongas in Buenos Aires. In Buenos
Aires, the dancing is a direct expression of the Argentine people, of
the longing for a relationship between a man and a woman, and given
the culture it is more direct expression of sexuality than is common
in North American culture.
Abrazos,
Florcita
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:42:09 -0800
From: Michael Proctor <mproctor @LOKI.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Tuesday Tango in the Sth Bay, SF, California
Tango Paradise on Tuesday in the South Bay, near San Francisco California
This Tuesday within a few miles of each other there will be three (3) tango
classes, one at Stanford (Gary Weinberg and Chelsea Eng), Palo Alto (Becky
and Dale) and Redwood City (Nora)... not to mention a practica at Carin's
close by.
The Quick details
Stanford University - Elliot Program Center (next to Lake Lagunita) [1.5]
-------------------
Gary Weinberg and Chelsea Eng, start of 4 week session
7:00 - 8:15 Beginners
8:30 - 9:45 Intermidiate
$9 a class drop in, lower rates for a series of classes
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/group/tango/
(650) 497 7161
Jose Caribbean Restaurent (usually Salsa, good eating/atmoshere) [.5]
-------------------------
2275 El Camino Real @ California Ave (almost), Palo Alto, exit 101 Oregon,
280 at Page Mill
Becky Boolsalis-Oler and Dale Sweezy
7 - 8 Beginners8-9 Intemdiate
9 - 10:00 Practice
from March 9 - 11:00+ Practiceif there is a enough demand
Coming soon: Salsa classes for Tango dancers
$8 1 Class $10 2 Classes
Info: (408) 998 7002
(650) 368 3144
Redwood City [2.5]
------------
Women's Club, 149 Clinton St @ Broadway
Nora Dinzlebacher
7;30 - Beginners
8:30 - Intermediate
$7:00
Tel. (510) 482 2524
**********************
Also look at http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/2254/polo.htm#7962
for even more tango classes in the South Bay: Monday Albertos and San
Mateo, Wednesday San Jose, Thursday San Mateo, Friday Los Altos.
happy dancing
mjp
ps the numbers in the [] are the distances from my home to the tango classes.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:22:52 -0800
From: Tanguero Productions <Tanguero @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: <No subject given>
As those of you who read our e-mail of 05 February already know, Cynthia =
Wraspir and Karlo Abouroumieh, two of the featured dancers of our RITMO =
TANGO( dance company, are currently touring with Luis Miguel, performing =
to his rendition of "UNO". =20
They have just appeared as follows:
February 19 Fairfax, VA Patriot Center
February 21 Atlantic City, NJ Taj Mahal Casino
Next up is:
February 26 Anaheim, CA Anaheim Pond
February 28 Los Angeles, CA Universal Amphitheatre
Alberto Toledano and Loreen Arbus
E-mail: http://www.earthlink.net/~tanguero/
Fax: 213.930.0186
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:20:52 EST
From: Pibe001 @AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango as Courtship
In a message dated 98-02-23 12:07:22 EST, flordemina @ROCKETMAIL.COM writes:
<< Perhaps many people do not understand or
choose to ignore the cultural heritage of Argentine Tango. That is
something I cannot do. >>
It would seem that many people who dance tango (and many other couple dances)
have a somewhat different view of dancing in general. Even outside the AT
milleu one can see that non-dancers (occasional dancers, not dance fanatics)
tend to take dancing much more as a mating ritual. IMHO, those of us who
*love* to dance will do it with a variety of partners as we enjoy the
differences of the dance experience. Even in the Latin communities there is a
segment of the people who really love to dance for the sake of dancing. These
people will dance with more partners and do not view dancing purely as a
mating ritual.
It is common at dance parties for people to dance with a variety of partners.
OTOH, if one goes to a club and tries to ask an obviously attached non-dancer
to dance, one can find one's self in a bit of a predicament. Jealous mates can
tend to wreak havoc upon one's person. At the very least, bad feelings are apt
to occur. I think that the *promiscuity* on the dance floor is more a
manifestation of the dancers predilection than a particularly cultural bias.
BTW, I dont believe for one moment that one has to be Argentino to dance a
genuine tango anymore than one has to be Cuban or Boricua to dance Salsa or
Son, American to dance swing, Dominican to dance Merengue, etc. It certainly
helps to be part of each culture to understand better each dance or music, but
not mandatory. On another note, there are many people who can speak more than
one language without a trace of a *foreign* accent.
Dance who you are.
Pibe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:24:47 -0800
From: Michael Proctor <mproctor @LOKI.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Tues Tango callses in SF - correction
I ommitted to edit carefully my message advertising tango classes in the
South Bay area of San Francisco.
To the few who it maybe relevent: There is NO practice at Carin, it is
else where tonight....
sorry for the incovinence.
Michael
ps Now for something completly different. Although previouse posting may
imply otherwise, we don't really have a problem with the number of toilets
in this area and suprisingly its has never before been an issue associated
with Tango. But I'm just narrow minded, forgive me :-)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:46:41 -0800
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy @DRACO.ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Is Argentine Tango changing?
Hola Naifas y Garabos,
Arthur Greenberg brought up a question that caught my eye:
>>If you kept the Argentine Tango in Buenos Aires it would continue to be as
>>pure as the Portenos would like to keep it...........but is it changing? even
>>in Buenos Aires?
I mulled it over and here are my thoughts on it.
--------------------------------------------------------
Argentine Tango is by all accounts a complex dance
that defies definition. Tango practicioners may spend
years studying it and mastering the vocabulary of the
dance only to discover new possibilities at every turn.
There are so many variables involved --music, steps,
skills, etc.-- that from the surface it seems as if the
Tango indeed is an "infinite possibility." Yet, we are
always striving to preserve it; to be true to its
traditions and accepted principles. This presents an
interesting problem. For Argentine Tango to remain an
infinite possibility it must change. But if it changes
then, what are we preserving?
Complex systems show certain common behaviors. We can think
of those behaviors as characteristics of complex systems.
One would think that by studying those characteristics we
could eventually understand and master the system. Alas,
the time honored scientific approach of reductionism
--taking the thing apart into its smallest components to see
how it works-- doesn't work with complex systems because
the interesting behavior seems to arise from the spontaneous
interaction of the components. Argentine Tango is a product
of music, dance steps, skill, history, and culture. Any
single one of these components leads to a different field of
study. The Argentine Tango dance arises only when you combine
all of them.
The answer to the question: is Argentine Tango changing? is in
my opinion a resounding yes. All of its components continue
to change individually. And that is precisely how it should
be for AT to remain alive. Complex systems seem to strike a
balance between the need for order and the imperative to change.
Complex systems tend to locate themselves at a place called
"the edge of chaos." This is a place where there is enough
innovation to keep the system vibrant, and enough stability to
keep it from collapsing into anarchy. It is a zone of conflict
and upheaval, where the old and the new are constantly at war.
Finding the balance point is a delicate matter --if a complex
system drifts too close it risks falling over into incoherence
and dissolution; but if the system moves too far away from
the edge, it becomes rigid, frozen, totalitarian. Both conditions
lead to extinction. Too much change is as destructive as too little.
Only at the edge of chaos can complex systems flourish. This place,
I believe, is where we find the Argentine Tango.
I don't have a clear answer to the second question, what are we
preserving? Does anyone?
Regards,
------
ruddy
------------------------------
End of TANGO-L Digest - 24 Feb 1998 to 25 Feb 1998
**************************************************