Re: [TANGO-L] seduction or imposition

[Joanne Pogros <joanneprochaska @AOL.COM>]

 Hyla, I agree with you completely.  You have not only reiterated the obvious but have also illuminated the hidden thoughts of the feminine tango heart about a very "touchy" subject!   Thank you very much for taking the time to write.
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio

-----Original Message-----
From: H Dickinson <hyladlmp  @YAHOO.COM>
To: TANGO-L  @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:27:59 -0700
Subject: [TANGO-L] seduction or imposition


Hola Listeros,

Sorry to keep taking up so much list space.  I know that those
of you who don't want to read more from me will delete or scroll
past this.  I hope to be over this  current posting obsession
soon, so I can have my free time back!  Cheers!

Trini and Astrid,

I am not altogether sure that you're opinions are quite as
opposed as Astrid assumes.

Astrid--if a man's technique deteriorates completely and he
stops dancing, losing his axis and frame and connection in order
to (unmusically) rub his leg, his hands, or his groin all over
you, is this really so seductive?  It can be done quite easily
in many settings, no reason to take classes or pay the entrada
to a milonga.  Most people on on this list would agree that we
go dancing because we want to dance.  Any sexual whatevers that
come up are bonus points. (Or sometimes beside the point).

As Randy pointed out in his last post, sex is fairly cheap and
easy to come by if you go to the right bars and/or street
corners.  Lower your standards enough and it could be free.
Astrid, when I read your posts about the sexiness of entwined
legs, it doesn't seem to me that you are looking for a quick and
dirty encounter in the bathroom stall at the next cortina.  What
you seem to enjoy is the art of seduction, the suggestiveness,
the satisfaction of being in the know, more worldly than the
rest of the people in the room.  There is a little subtext going
on between you and the man you are entwined with, it is a little
secret, half hidden, half obvious, and who is to know from
looking whether it is for real or just a game.  Is it a 3 minute
affair, or is it just the only *visible* 3 minutes of the
affair?

It seems to me that Trini's objections are not to the delightful
delicious little naughtiness of shared references to private
acts performed in public; she is objecting to those icky,
inartistic, overt and clumsy gropings which are merely nasty and
tasteless.  How many of us women have been subjected to those
awful dances where the man's only conception of tango is that it
is "really sexy to have a woman draped all over you", so all he
does is maneuver you into some awkward and uncomfortable but
suggestive pose (ignoring line of dance, the music, navigation,
lead/follow etc.), then shuffle himself around and haul you into
yet another uncomfortable and stupid pose, this time gazing
meaningfully into your eyes, and so on with a specially dramatic
pose at the end?  This is not dancing, it is not sexy,
suggestive or seductive; it is gross and unpleasant and no fun
at all.  Maybe with the circumspection in Japan, this never
becomes an issue for you.  But I've suffered through this more
than enough.

Some men I find extraordinarily attractive as dancers but real
turn-offs sexually.  To me, if a man does not have the right
scent, he can dance like a god (or Gavito), look like Adonis (or
Adrian Brody), be a master of sparkling wit and sexy innuendo,
and all he will ever be to me is a great dance partner.  That's
how I'm wired.  As a consequence, I have never aspired to meet
Mr. Right or even Mr. One Night Stand on the dance floor.  If a
man is interested, he needs to figure out if it is mutual.  I
object when a man assumes that the successful completion of a
gancho means I'm "easy".  Many other women share my feelings in
this.  Now, I can have a great time playing that seduction game
when it is part of the dance, when the dance does not suffer.
But even in those rare cases when his pheromones fire up my
hormones, if the guy's dance degenerates so he can play grabby
games, then it's over.  All the fun is gone.

Yeah, it is hilarious sometimes to be twining legs in very
provocative positions on a public dance floor, and we've all had
our share of dances when we come off the floor all flushed and
breathless for reasons other than the speed of the music.  Why
be ashamed of it?  It's all part of living life in the most
fully human manner possible.  But there are always little
signals going on within the dance that let you know how the
other partner is responding to these little overtures.  The guys
whose only intent is copping a feel don't pay attention to those
signals, they assume things that we have not given permission
for regardless of our body language or behaviors, and those of
us who have been sending signals of "Whoa, not so fast, not so
far, it's just a dance"  then end up feeling used and slimy.

When I agree to dance with a man, I agree to participate in a
lovely connection with seduction or suggestiveness as possible
parts of the game to a lesser or greater extent.  I do not agree
to be mauled, humped or used as a masturbation post.  Now,
during the course of the dance, maybe we renegotiate aspects of
what we are willing to do together.  Some guys maybe I'd be more
willing to be a bit more, umm, explicit? naughty? with.  Some
will be encouraged into a very very open embrace.  Sometimes it
is clear that we are understanding the most explicit of moves as
simple physical dance challenges.  Sometimes we negotiate a sort
of goof off riff doing "sexy" or "suggestive" moves so asexually
that it becomes quite funny.  Maybe we negotiate a continuation
of the game beyond the milonga.  But this all comes from that
same listening and sensitivity.  We need to read one another's
intentions.  Without that, it's not seduction, it's "tango
rape", or at least "tango harassment".

And here's almost the opposite:  we dance very close and never
do anything that would look the slightest bit sexy from outside
but it feels like something very special--not from rubbing or
intertwining, but from just the closeness and sharing, the
tightening of the embrace at a crucial moment, the breathing
together, standing still together in the most attentive way
possible.  If I were to compare this to sex, I think that I
would say that it is not so much like the sex act itself, but
like those moments of extreme closeness that come after the act.
 Or like those moments in a long and successful relationship
when you feel so close to the loved one, so in harmony, that you
can eat a meal together each lifting the fork or water glass in
concert and people at the restaurant ask you which anniversary
you are celebrating, without ever having seen anything so overt
as hand-holding.  "Food I ate with you was more than food, wine
I drank wit you was more than wine".  Now, to be able to
experience THAT in a three minute dance is pretty special.

Maybe that is what Randy found so sad about the paid dancers.
Those women would never be inspired to work on themselves or
their dance to the point where they could experience that
closeness.  They are paying those guys for a service, and to the
guys, as Randy says, "It feels like work".  They are ashamed.
These poor women will never have the incentive to bring their
dance up to the level where it can be a *shared* pleasure.  They
are paying only for their own pleasure, and thus the young men
withhold that part of themselves that brings the dance to the
next level.  The women never get the 3 minute affair, they get a
chaste version of the bathroom stall quickie.  They get only the
mundane of both worlds, the best of nothing.

Hyla



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