The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 28 Jun 2000
to 29 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:00:03 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 28 Jun 2000 to 29 Jun 2000 (#2000-177)
There are 9 messages totalling 463 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. women in classes. (3)
2. FW: your favorite walking steps
3. favourite "step"
4. Lyrics
5. Women in classes
6. Practice, practice
7. Phil Ferrigno/ATLANTA/MAPICS is out of the office.
Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to Tango-A rather than to
Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To subscribe to Tango-A,
send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:03:50 +0200
From: Hangleiter Ralph <Ralph.Hangleiter @HYGIENE.SCA.SE>
Subject: Re: women in classes.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kate Withey [mailto:withey @SFO.COM]
> Sent: Mittwoch, 28. Juni 2000 07:21
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: women in classes.
>
>
> Russell Bauer writes:
>
> > I would like to add a hypothesis: Men like the
> close-embrace or milonguero
> > (sp?) style of Argentine tango more than women do. Women
> like the stage
> > style more.
>
> In my experience, it's just the opposite. More men like
> figures, drama, showing
> off: an external style; while women like the close,
> intimate, internal communic
> ation of the milonguero style. I thought it kept coming up
> this way -- men want
> steps; women want connection.
That hurts ;).
I would say generally it is more difficult for the men
to learn tothat it is not about being always moving and figures,
but the connection. Why is it so difficult to dance a pause
for many?
Cheers
Ralph
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:00 +0200
From: Hangleiter Ralph <Ralph.Hangleiter @HYGIENE.SCA.SE>
Subject: FW: your favorite walking steps
Hej Sue,
my favorite steps vary from partner to partner, because it
is always so nicely different. It would be quite difficult
to single out a step which is a favourite. Each of them
can be so nice when in the right mood with the right partner.
Sometimes it is a corte (single or even repeated) to the right,
sometimes it is a double sacada, sometimes it is a pause...
Cheers
Ralph
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sue stigleman [mailto:stigleman311 @EARTHLINK.NET]
> Sent: Donnerstag, 15. Juni 2000 21:17
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: your favorite walking steps
>
>
> I'd like to ask people what their favorite walking steps are.
> I know that
> the tango is in theory all walking steps, but what I mean
> here is the kind
> of stuff that is meant when someone says "he mostly walked and changed
> direction, with no turns".
>
> For example, one leader that I danced with did a step that
> felt really neat.
> Although I couldn't analyze it while following, I asked him
> about it later,
> and it turned out to be stepping to the left (leader's left),
> shifting into
> crossed feet, and then stepping forward to the right of the follower.
> (Similar to steps 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 of the D8CB with crossed
> feet, but
> going to the opposite side of the follower.) I know there
> are thousands of
> simple little 2-3 step walking sequences like this, but what are your
> favorite variations? Or favorite timing variations to these
> little pieces?
>
> To put my question in context, I'm developing a very new
> tango community in
> Asheville, NC, where there tango students can't go to
> milongas and watch
> people dance and pick up these little things. I try to pick
> them up when I
> travel, and I encourage the people here to improvise with the
> fundamental
> atoms of the tango, but I think some more examples might help
> open people's
> eyes to the possibilities.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --sue
>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:52:07 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: women in classes.
Original Message -----
From: Kate Withey <withey @SFO.COM>
Subject: Re: women in classes.
> Russell Bauer writes:
>
> > I would like to add a hypothesis: Men like the close-embrace or
milonguero
> > (sp?) style of Argentine tango more than women do. Women like the stage
> > style more.
>
> In my experience, it's just the opposite. More men like figures, drama,
showing off: an external style; while women like the close, intimate,
internal communication of the milonguero style. I thought it kept coming up
this way -- men want steps; women want connection.
>
*Some* women like the close embrace better and *some* men like to do steps
and figures more. I think it is not useful to generalize or make sweeping
statements like these. I've known women who are very uncomfortable with the
close embrace and I definitely know guys who just love the "franeleo" ;) Oh,
BTW, I also think it is missleading to confuse connection with a very close
physical contact. These are not necessarily one and the same!
There is another point that needs clarification. Many women do indeed like
to show off and do embellishments as well. Does this mean that they do not
want *connection*? Actually it is kind of funny but many followers will
automatically do low boleos after a parada, whether they are led or not ;)
Being a leader requires a lot of skill and ability to understand and
compensate for the follower's autonomous moves.
On another note, somebody posted about the awfull men dancers who insist in
*instructing* women at milongas. Sadly, this is true and might account for
some women not coming to tango events. Ladies, you do not need to take
instruction during milongas at all (actually, you should be suspicious of
any unsolicited instruction by strangers).
Instruction or communication about steps, moves or whatever should be done
only during class or practica. Preferably at your request and by the
instructor. Unfortunately some men try to instruct when they are barely
capable of dancing themselves, there is little one can do about this. It
would be nice if these gentlemen read the posts about this subject but they
probably do not even subscribe to the list. Funny thing is, some of the
worst offenders are also men who are do not show up to classes or practicas
regularly. Go figure....
Happy tango experiences to all,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:03:58 +1200
From: Alex White <amwtango @PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: favourite "step"
saludos al "mundo tanguero" desde Wellington, Nueva Zelanda !
hi list :)
I feel like mentioning that one of my favourite "basic" movements
(more of a "same-axis turn as opposed to a walking step)
which I love to dance with nearly anyone of all levels would have to be;
an arrastre (sweep) with the leaders right foot (followers right too),
followed by a pivot on left foot, and a lift then lunge behind with my right
leg.
A very beautiful thing about this is pivoting upon the same axis, then a
small "sway" while lungeing - it's quite hard to explain - ending up in a
slightly twisted pause or finishing position.
The whole motion and style of this I find very appealing. my students really
like it too.
Hello to all those people I met in BsAs this March / April !
Hasta la Pista! (see you on the dance floor ! :)
Alex White
Viva Latina Dance Company
E-mail: alex_tangofirulete @yahoo.com
Website: http://come.to/tango_firulete
* Resident DJ FRESCO *
@ CLUB FIESTA
Cnr Tory & Vivian Sts
Wellington, New Zealand
Latin Dance Party every Fri / Sat
Todo Tango on Thursdays
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:27:37 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay @FOXINTERNET.NET>
Subject: Lyrics
We have a demonstration coming up on the 4th of July. I was thinking
of reciting the lyrics from a tango to our audience to highlight the
mood of the music. Does anyone have any suggestions of one that I can
use?
Lois Donnay
Tango Society of Minnesota
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:59:47 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: women in classes.
Hangleiter Ralph wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kate Withey [mailto:withey @SFO.COM]
> > In my experience, it's just the opposite. More men like
> > figures, drama, showing
> > off: an external style; while women like the close,
> > intimate, internal communic
> > ation of the milonguero style. I thought it kept coming up
> > this way -- men want
> > steps; women want connection.
May be men want steps while they are learning the steps and
want connection once they can do the steps(since to want
connection, which does not require doing anything special,
may seem hallow otherwise).
> but the connection. Why is it so difficult to dance a pause
> for many?
>
In general, a few things could be conspiring against connection
establishment.
For one, it may be difficult for quite a few followers to
stay put. Unless the follower is really just following,
it is difficult to pause in place for more than 3 beats while
the leader just changes weight, without moving. It seems
to confuse some(who think there ought to be more to a step than
just changing weight and proceed to embellish in unexpected ways),
some fudge and lose track of where the weight is(if the tempo
is fast), some have the tendency to make the leader move(by the
slight pull which could happen when they change weight).
Some followers have the tendency to anchor their left hand near
the leader's right biceps or do other things which leaves the
embrace open.
Lastly, I am told, this change of weight(without moving) hurts the
ankles of the follower more than other steps!
When the follower is really good(like professionals who just exactly
do as much and nothing more or less than the lead), the leader might
try to do some exotic figure and impress her(although all this may
leave her all the more unimpressed ;-)
In any case, pausing need not be without suspense or drama since
one does not know when exactly the leader is going to step out --
it could be more like holding ones breath.
rajan.
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:06:03 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women in classes
Greetings,
Rajan made a few comments about connection that need a little clarification.
No offense, Rajan, but your statements seem to indicate that you haven't
danced very long. Another beginner reading them could start out on the wrong
foot, pun intended ;-)
First to Kate:
I don't think there is any correlation between gender and desire to connect.
If dancers in New York are any example (and they tend to be a good cross
section), both men and women seem to want both. There are men here who like
to dance close, others who want to show off. There are also women who enjoy
dancing closely and romantically and others who want to joust with you. And
there is every shade in between. Because men lead, there is a natural
tendency to try things and some feel inadequate if they can't do a back
sacada or impress you, but again, not all men are interested in always trying
out figures, myself for one, as well as others I know here. It also depends
on who you study with and what they emphasize. It is not easy to dance close
and well. Some people have more problems with physical intimacy than others
:-).
Rajan wrote:
<Some followers have the tendency to anchor their left hand near
the leader's right biceps ... which leaves the
embrace open.>
This doesn't necessarily indicate open or closed frame. In fact many
excellent followers will dance close while holding the man's arm in this
manner. It is often a very good way to feel his body responses. Too many
people associate the closed frame dancing with "milonguero" style where the
woman drapes her arm around his neck.
<<Lastly, I am told, this change of weight (without moving) hurts the
ankles of the follower more than other steps!>>
Huh? Perhaps you were told this by someone with weak ankles or someone who
had a very heavy-handed leader. We're not talking flamenco here.
<<When the follower is really good(like professionals who just exactly
do as much and nothing more or less than the lead)...>>
Not true at all. Not from the professionals I have seen. This perpetuates the
myth that women have no contribution to the dance and are passive followers.
I have been dancing some with Melina Frufman who is here visiting from Buenos
Aires and it is a real pleasure. She does quite a bit on her own,
embellishments and many little touches that give her dancing a lot of
character. They are light and delicate and they never interfere with my
leading which she follows perfectly. And this was the general consensus of
the other men that danced with her as well.
<<In any case, pausing need not be without suspense or drama since
one does not know when exactly the leader is going to step out -->>
If he is any good she will know exactly when to step out.
These comments aren't quite as wacky as the one about leading with one's head
but could still be misconstrued by people just starting out.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:28:08 GMT
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999 @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Practice, practice
Melanie,
I think it's good that you enjoy just listening to the music
and maybe watching the dancers. You certainly shouldn't be blamed
for it - I think everyone should do it part of the time.
But I want to offer the list a different view on verbal comments: I
really appreciate verbal feedback from a partner.
It seems to me that verbal feedback from a partner in a practice
can't really be "unsolicited" - by agreeing to dance together in a
practice you've entered into a temporary partnership to try to
improve your tango, and one of the most effective ways to do that
is by verbally identifying the cause of problems and finding ways
to fix them. My partner is in a unique positon to offer feedback -
no one else can feel how it is to dance with me. In a practice, I
feel that I've implicitly agreed to welcome verbal feedback.
Of course it's essential to be tactful and considerate in offering
comments or suggestions, but that's a separate issue from the issue
of whether or not verbal feedback is appropriate. And anyone who
offers a comment, feedback, or suggestion should be aware that the
cause of the problem may very well be a fault of his own. (Roberto
Reis said at Nora's tango week that problems in tango steps are _almost_
always caused by a problem with the lead. I agree with
that.)
In a milonga it's a diffent situation - the leader should be trying
to give his partner an enjoyable, interesting dance. In general,
he shouldn't even lead a step the follower has a problem with, no
matter what her skill level, much less offer criticism or instruction.
Melanie's post, and most of the follow-ups, would tend to DIScourage
anyone from offering verbal feedback to a partner. I'd like to
ENcourage leaders AND followers to offer constructive comments and
suggestions to their practice partners, and to solicit feedback and
welcome it when it's offered. I personally prefer it that way, and
I think that open, constructive discussion is a good way to raise
the level of dancing in the tango community, to our mutual benefit.
"Ricardo"
>From: Melanie Archer <melanie @METRIUS.COM>
>Reply-To: Melanie Archer <melanie @METRIUS.COM>
>To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: Practice, practice
>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:12:59 -0700
>
>Good day, all,
>
>As a not-quite-beginner, not-quite-intermediate follower, I was of course
>interested in the list's
>discussion of an apparent gender gap in commitment to learning tango. It
>puzzled me that
>I didn't see mention of another reason for followers' hesitation to indulge
>in practicas: the
>unsolicited critiques we receive from leaders. I know that leaders also
>receive such verbalized
>performance judgements from followers, but I suspect these are less
>frequent. Unhappily, even the
>social atmosphere of a milonga will not deter the (self-)righteous from
>their tutoring. Given
>the choice of hazarding a tanda with partners who nag, or standing in the
>dark enjoying the
>music, who can blame us followers for lurking?
>
>
></mja>
>=============
>Melanie Archer
>melanie @metrius.com
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:04:04 -0400
From: Phil Ferrigno <Phil.Ferrigno @MAPICS.COM>
Subject: Phil Ferrigno/ATLANTA/MAPICS is out of the office.
I will be out of the office from 06/28/2000 until 07/05/2000.
I will respond to your message when I return.
Best Regards,
Phil
End of TANGO-L Digest - 28 Jun 2000 to 29 Jun 2000 (#2000-177)
**************************************************************