The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 20 Jun 2000
to 21 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 03:01:01 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 20 Jun 2000 to 21 Jun 2000 (#2000-169)
There are 10 messages totalling 610 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. They Don't Get It (?) (4)
2. Tango in Lithuania
3. Who doesn't get it?
4. A follow-up
5. Still hoping that "some day I'll understand".
6. CSM tango article
7. Misunderstood? was RE: [Trips to Bs.As.] - No longer!
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:55:28 +0200
From: Matthias Koller <koller @RZ.UNI-POTSDAM.DE>
Subject: Re: They Don't Get It (?)
At 02:57 20.06.00 -0400, you wrote:
>Those of you who have no local Argentinos (and are shaking your heads over
>the threads about dancing in their Milongas), crank-up up the music and
>enjoy ... and thank your lucky stars you don't know what I'm talking about.
>
>Best,
>
>ke
Hi Keith,
I thank my lucky stars that here in Berlin we have some local Argentinian
teachers. They are technically the best, very friendly and less arrogant
than some of the german teachers and also organising very exciting
milongas. They are enriching our tango scene and not destroying it.
Besides this, I'm sure that in any kind of matter you will find the
scholars who claim to possess the absolute truths. It doesn't depend on the
nationality nor on the discipline. But it is our decision to believe and
follow them or not.
Regards
Matthias
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:08:49 +0000
From: Laimute <laimute @LINTEL.LT>
Subject: Tango in Lithuania
Hello list,
If somebody is in Lithuania this weekend,
maybe will find it interesting to visit
the firsth Tango dance evening in Kaunas town.
Date: 24, June
Address: Vytautas avenue 79, Kaunas
...................................................................
Please e-mail me privately and I'll send you
a plan, how to get to this place.
Best regards,
Laima
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:53:24 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: They Don't Get It (?)
>Please allow me to raise a perhaps uncomfortable point; I think it ought to
>be.=20
>...
>I continually meet travelling Argentinos who impress me with their grace,
>style and abilities.
>
>But I'm going to come right out and say it: the people who are the most
>effective at destroying Tango growth in North America tend to be Argentinos
>who emigrate and SETTLE in a particular community.
>
>The more Argentinos there are who PROFESS to know Tango in your city, the
>less growth you will have in Tango.
>
>They all think they own it.
Tango is not unusual in having politics. There is almost always
politics in the dance world. The ballroom studios fight with each
other, the big ballet companies dis the smaller companies, salsa
teachers compete for students with other teachers.
I sense a greater camraderie in the Lindy Hop world, but perhaps I
just haven't been paying attention.
Insecurity brings out the worst in people.
I have noticed that older Argentines, the gentlemen of 50 or 60, do
not display anxiety about their position in tango. They are confident
of their knowledge, their skills and their attractiveness to the
ladies.
I have also noticed a confidence and maturity in the European Tango
teachers, in particular those who have been teaching for 10 or 15
years.
Very few of the tango teachers who travel have more than 6 or 8 years
of tango dance experience.
It is also important to remember the economic insecurity of Buenos
Aires. For the rising stars in the tango world this may lead to an
attitude of grab the success while you have it because next year
there is someone prettier, faster, better-connected, or whatever...
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:56:11 EDT
From: Dario Mendiguren <C21DARI @AOL.COM>
Subject: They Don't Get It (?)
Dear Keith:
After reading your post, I understand how you feel about Argentines in the=20
Tango Communities in USA, If I would be you, probably I would feel the sam=
e=20
way, after ten years of (bad?) marriage with an Argentinean lady (at this=20
point as you'd wrote probable you smell too, or at least be contaminated!!)=20
or dealing with Argentinos as you stated "the people who are the most=20
effective at destroying Tango growth in North America tend to be Argentinos=20
who emigrate and SETTLE in a particular community"
I live in NY, I'm a Tango dancer here (for at least 4 years), I'm one of=20
those Porti~os that you dislike and my mission is (as you believe) to destro=
y=20
the growth of this beautiful Tango community! =20
=20
Sorry I was not successful yet!! neither the other Porte~os that live and=20
dance could, I wonder why?!!
I'm really sorry that you have had such a bad experience with my fellows=20
"Citymenon/Citywomen" in your Tango community (and in your marriage), but=20=
I=20
know many American people who dance and interact at the local Milongas (and=
=20
out of them) with Porte~os (who live in USA), and cannot talk the way you do=
,=20
because they probably have had good experiences with us
Your feelings are a little contradictory or at least the way you express the=
m=20
is
as you wrote
"I am an unabashed Argentinophile. I love their Tango music and culture. I a=
m
full of respect. I was married to a professional Porte=F1a Tango artist for=20=
10
years. I love them, love them, love them."
and at the end you wrote
Speaking on behalf of Tango lovers in North America, because I have earned
the right, I say to people from Buenos Aires and those who have married
them:
HELLOOOO!!! Guess what? Yours smells too!!
As a Porte~o (living in NY) you say that you love MY music and MY culture=20
(as you know, I didn't loose it the moment I stepped this blessed Land) and=
=20
You love us, you love us, you love us and on the other hand you say that I=20
smell too. =20
Che Keith please make up your mind!
You also wrote "The more Argentinos there are who PROFESS to know Tango in=20
your city, the less growth you will have in Tango."
Tell me Keith, do you have anything else possitive to say about us the=20
Porte~os who live , dance and promote in some way our dance in USA???
The way you talk about us and our influence to the Tango communities is a=20
little to much, don't you agree?=20
Thank you for your comments! and sorry for your feelings!
Have very happy Tangos, =20
PS When you see Porte~os at your local Milonga give them mi condolences
and tell them to came to NYC to help us destroy our Tango Community!
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:39:23 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Who doesn't get it?
Greetings,
One's personal experience in a culture can have a powerful effect on their
peception of it. This latest discussion is heating up fast but all of the
responses have some truth in them. We may never totally comprehend why Steve
Hoffman had such a negative experience or others had such a positive one. But
all of the negative or positive experiences only point out one thing. That
the culture of Buenos Aires is as full of contradictions as any other. So
what else is new? That not all porten~os dance tango well? So what else is
new? That so-called "milongueros" who didn't dance tango ten years ago are
all of a sudden the real thing. So what else is new? Etc., etc., etc.
Tango has evolved for well over a century. There are myriad influences behind
the formation of this dance. One shouldn't travel to BsAs expecting some kind
of transforming experience in two weeks although that could be possible. Some
people even return from there dancing worse than before they went. And others
just have bad luck. Maybe tango is more like real life than we would like to
admit. Maybe we should all ask ourselves- Is our own dancing really that good?
If Puppy Castello can get beautiful women to dance with him anyone can.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:02:13 -0400
From: Keith Elshaw <keith @TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: A follow-up
I wrote earlier today about Argentinos doing it to each other and the
general community at Tango's expense here in North America.
I've had some pretty humorous private emails. Most mentioned that they don'=
t
dare post to the group; one said that it sounded like I was describing
exactly a person in their community (who of course I have never met).
Here is a snippet that is sort of representative: "I was so sure you must
live in that I went & purused your website to find out."
(For the record, I live in Montr=E9al, where a visitor will not smell a hint
of pettiness in the air. There is just a great Tango culture happening here
- only 2 Argentinos who teach, by the way. In the last city I lived in,
there are 5 times as many Argentine teachers but only 20% of the total
number of dancers in a city that has 3 times the population. The people
rest).
One and all make the same point I do in their emails: it's not just the
Argentines who behave badly. But we want one time to bring this subject up.
It's something of a shame I can't share a couple of current eyebrow-raising
stories from different cities with you as cautionary tales, but this would
serve no good purpose.
Dario understandably from his point of view took issue with my comments. Hi=
s
post illustrates that, as always, New York is a special place. It's great t=
o
know that they don't fight with each other there. Big helps.
I also had a private email from Germany where the behaviour and attitude of
the Argentines is cooperative and appreciated. I know there must be other
places on Earth where they get along in the Tango and help each other.
I wrote that post to illuminate a problem that exists in quite a few places=
.
If only a sliver of awareness could slip through and show these folks how
dubious and petty they appear to others. Faint hope.
In particular they look silly to the professional Argentine dancers and
teachers who travel. Local fighting for no good reason drives them crazy -
but they see it in many places. I wish one and all would model themselves
after these wise and generous Argentinos.
It would be a shame if the next 10 years of development in these cities was
as fractured as the last 10 simply because people like to look down their
noses at each other and snipe at perceived competition.
Obviously, I wish the same awakening to common sense of all teachers and
promoters of whatever origin. My point is that it is very tiresome to see
Argentines impeding growth with narrow-mindedness.
The one sure way to get around these problems is to have more people in the
scene.
An example of how negative reduces is our own TANGO-L. It was in such a bad
way last year for the vituperative attitude of a few. Numbers dropped. Now,
they are on the rise again. Proving to me that politeness or civility in
disagreement is the desire of the majority and does not hinder growth. Same
same for local Tango scenes.
Argentinos who now live abroad and want to teach locally: show your best
side. Be magnanimous. You'll love the response you get. Power will flow to
you instead of away.
ke
http://ToTANGO.net
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:10:14 +0200
From: Colin Brace <cb @LIM.NL>
Subject: Re: They Don't Get It (?)
Keith,
Your description fits Amsterdam pretty well. As a result, the tango scene
here remains provincial and parochial. A real pity.
--
Colin Brace <cb @lim.nl>
Amsterdam
http://www.lim.nl
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:45:13 -0800
From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET>
Subject: Still hoping that "some day I'll understand".
Well, well... most interesting comments from Sharon about how "tango in
Argentina" is "THE TANGO", i.e. the real thing!" Of course, it's true!
And the case of the "Desaparecidos", the thousands of citizens who were
tortured, gang-raped, murdered, thrown out of airplanes into the sea, or
had their newborns taken from the goal to be given to members of the regime
who wanted children.... That was the REAL THING too!!
But maybe we don't want or need the "REAL" thing all the time, eh? Maybe
we like the stuff that evolves in OUR direction, to our liking, that suits
our own spirits or philosophies....? Is that ok?
Seriously now, when a kind list member forwarded parts of Sharon's comments
to me prior to my receiving a copy in the Digest version, I wasn't sure if
Sharon was kidding or not. Now that I can see she was serious, all I can
do is laugh, really. But I thank people like Dave and Manuel and "Ricardo"
for coming to my defense with their own well-spoken observations. I don't
need to expand further on my own thoughts as a result. I also thank the
others who wrote me privately after my recent long post, who all agreed
with me so eloguently, expressing their own personal feelings and
experiences. Certain people have expressed to me concern that I must be
getting attacked hard for these several pieces I have written, but apart
from the two most visible Argentines on the two tango lists, I have
literally received ONLY positive responses to my last three long essays
(amazing, but appreciated!). Maybe what I have been saying is not so far
from others' experiences and feelings...
Sharon, really the essense of what I was saying is that the "real thing" is
different, depending on who you are. Even though I am normally considered
a very pleasant, outgoing and entthusiastic dancer (and friend), in Buenos
Aires I got nowhere. I found the women, who are sort of essential to
having the "real tango" that you advocate (at least for this man),
virtually impossible to meet, either inside or outside the milonga. That's
why I said that I can dance magnitudes more here in the USA, and with
partners that are head and shoulders above the Argentinas in terms of
friendliness, openness, flexibility, and almost certainly in education,
careers, interesting backgrounds, etc. So, what is "real" to me? -
watching tango in Argentina, or dancing it here?
This actually leads directly to a desire to comment on Keith Elshaw's most
interesting post, one that I agree with wholeheartedly. (Maybe I just
appreciate the "politically incorrect" post, since in today's actual
political and cultural life in the USA (IMO), we are subject to forms of
information control, intellectual manipulation and approbation that are
off-scale compared to the more tolerant and open social discussion of the
70's and early 80's, and even the rest of the post-war period.)
In the five years since starting tango in the USA, and through four trips
to Argentina, I have been absolutely amazed at the virulence, the hatred,
the psychological toxicity of the Argentines that I have encountered in the
tango. Personally, I have never witnessed a national or cultural group in
which pure, unadulterated egotism and emotional violence plays such a
dramatic and seemingly never-ending part. (Sure you can get hurt in
Brazil, if you don't know what you're doing; I've been both shot at from 5
feet away (missed) and stabbed multiple times in a gang attack
(successfully), but at least it's all done with happiness, fun, pleasure
and typical Brazilian warmth and friendliness; they give more goodness
than they take away, by far.)
Back to the Argentines, we all know, either by reputation or in person, the
incredible, almost unbelievable, nastiness of a certain famous Left Coast
tango promotor - but I find the same trend in almost every Argentine "tango
resident" (Keith's concept) in the USA that I can think of, with the
notable exception of Nora Dinzelbacher in the Bay Area, a wonderful and
kind teacher and friend to many Americans (the only such woman I know of
who would meet Keith's description of a tango-teacher-resident). I do
believe it is a delicate matter, and sometimes risky, to generalize about a
whole culture (although we, and every culture and race, do it all the
time), but there is something in Keith's comments which seems to hit a rich
vein of truth and reality. All "PC"-Mind-Control aside, anyone who has
studied anthropology, ethnology, corss-cultural psychology, etc. *for
real*, knows that there ARE very substantial characterological and other
differences between the nations, cultures and races.
As much as the "country" of Argentina awes me, there is something about
"the people" (at least through the window of tango, but also through
traveling around the country) which astounds me with its coldness,
selfishness, it's profound culture of envy, insecurity, of class warfare
and class hatred. The political and social history of Argentina seems, to
me, to be dominated by a tradition of ethnic hatred and social envy,
probably based on the fact that it is one of the youngest and least
historically-based cultures and political entities in the world, being
essentially a total backwater, essentially unpopulated and
politically/socially in it's infancy, until the sudden, relatively massive
European immigraton at the turn of the last century. Unlike some popular
fantasies, immigrants (to and from ANY country) are basically not happy
people. (P.S., I have worked with literally thousands of them, from
practically every nation in the world, and studied their characters and
cultures, for over 15 years, professionally.) Practically by
self-definition, they are the rejects, the uneducated, the persecuted, the
criminals, the divorced, the abused, the unstable, or of lower intelligence
and very much lower oppourtunity in their own countries. Almost by
definition, in their previous land they had no jobs or skills, were
landless, frequently without family, marriage, or even friends. So they
left. Well, in Argentina, this legacy is VERY recent in historical and
ethnological terms. And now, some Argentines are HERE!! (See previous
two sentences.)
In this analysis, therefore (actually, it is a very common analysis - not
my own creation at all), some of the psychosocial trends we see nowadays in
Argentina are very much based on the very recent and divisive and often
violent admixture of racial, national, ethnic, and religious newcomers.
Having no long-term history to fall back on (even the USA is relatively old
by comparison to Argentina), these people have been at each other's throats
since the beginning. The very short political history of Argentina is rife
with repression and violence, and virtually no benevolence whatsoever. The
Blacks (and there were many) have been essentially killed off. YES, killed
off; they are so few as be a rarity. The indigenous people have been
reduced to less than 5% of the population. The Mediterranean descendents
detest the British and their political legacy. The British types look down
on the Latins. Peron and his whole movement exploited an unending
variation on class warfare, envy and hatred. The violent demonstrations,
political and military repression, and era of torture and mass cruelty, are
direct results of a society that had very little center, very little
history, very little philosophical and (sorry!) moral base upon which to
stand.
What does this have to do with the tango? And the people of the tango?
Let's face it: Tango is low-class. Just as samba is low-class in Brazil,
and boxing is low-class in the USA, tango is a life-style and an avocation
of the lower classes in Argentina. Remember all the things we have been
told on this list, by the Argentine members: the poor barrios, the
abattoir and dock workers, the drinking, the knife-fights, the
prostitution, the police repression of tango. That's for real. Believe
it. But please DON'T beleive that that's it's changed all that much in the
last few decades (again, see Cherie Magnus' post of 13 May).
Americans, particularly, are very naive about other cultures, and
frequently project their own simplistic views on their tourism contacts.
Just because (practically all) people in Argentina dress far better than
Americans doesn't mean the tango dancers there have highly a evolved sense
of fairness, or honesty. Just because practically every social class in
Latin America has a interpersonal and conversational ability, and
mannerliness, that is increasingly absent in all levels of American society
doesn't mean that they will play fair in economic competition when fishing
for tango dollars in the USA. You go to a tangueria in Buenos Aires, and
the people LOOK like they are embodiment of "class", with spectacular
appaerance, stylish clothes, exotic and graceful dancing. But, in fact,
like it or not, the majority are members of the lower classes. They fight,
they compete, they betray, they back-stab, more than most simple Americans
think. And they do the same when they come here. (This is not to say that
upper class people are all that fair or decent, but I strongly believe
there are trends toward higher moral behavior among more educated and
enlightened people.)
Keith is right, I believe. Here, you are seeing some VERY unhappy persons,
direct from the tango underworlds of Buenos Aires, and all the cultural
history of hatred and envy I described above, who are looking for new turf.
Here, they can be much bigger fish, in a far smaller pond. There is the
corrupting influence of money, money that is inconceivably better than even
a professional can earn in the best fields in Argentina. One seventh of
all Argentines are unemployed. Does anyone think tango dancers from the
lower classes are employable in Argentina? It's like I wrote about Cuba 6
months ago: when a 15 year old girl can, with ONE single sex act, earn
more money than a cardiac surgeon in Castro's vaunted health care system
earns in ONE MONTH, there is corruption afoot (on both people's parts).
Same with tango.
So, like Apple Computer says: What you see is what you get.
(I'll stop now; truly sorry for the bandwidth - I just think these topics
are so interesting, that I have to write enough to transmit my ideas the
best I can. Hope the readership overall doesn't mind too much.)
Steve Hoffman
One more thing, regarding the post by "rtara <rtara @MAINE.RR.COM>"
<"I've just returned from a milonga where yet another couple from Argentina
performed.....his partner was {just} another pretty face in a glitzy
get-up......I wish that men would choose their partners for their dance
ability and not for their sex appeal.">
Ms. "rtara", this is kind of what I have been trying to say, about tango
in Argentina. I'm sure you are aware of the social theory that, basically,
all manner of wealth and power-equivalents, in the hands of men (such as:
cash, war, cars, clothes, height, athletic endeavors, dance ability, etc.)
are, in some psychological or evolutionary sense, a substitute for sexual
power and control.... That, on some level, the competition for these
power-equivlents represents the ever-present and unending search for sexual
dominance (over other men, other competitors), and the acquisition of
females, for mating. Why did the men practice with other men in the early
years?? So that they could go to milongas and "mate" with females! It's
obvious, isn't it?
In my opinion, and the written and oral history of tango seems to be
totally in accord, one of the ultimate PURPOSES of tango IS sex. The man
is an excellent dancer; the woman is a babe. That's why you see the very
kind of partnerships in tango that you deplore in your posting. In my
opinion, this is what a lot of tango In Buenos Aires is really all about,
especially, if not overwhelmingly, in the case of the American female
visitor. That is why I wrote what I did about the foreign women in Buenos
Aires, and how their own sexual pursuits, up-front interest in casual sex,
and frequently unbridled sexual appetite has thrown a monkey-wrench into
the scene there, and created sort of a two-tier social phenomena, with the
foreign tanguera being the wild one, and some older and many younger
tangueros switching their "code" around to be able to sleep with the
tourists.
What I LIKE about tango in the US, is that this contract doesn't have to
exist, and frequently is NOT a factor.... such that men and women can enjoy
each other's company for friendship, mutual respect, for the pleasure of
the dance.
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:53:33 -0400
From: Robinne Gray <rlg2 @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: CSM tango article
For the first time in weeks I was checking my favorite Internet news sites
and coincidentally found the following in the Christian Science Monitor.
--Robinne
WORLD
Move over MTV - Argentina's Gen-Xers want to tango!
With globalization and the Internet blurring cultural boundaries, South
American youth look to their
grandparents for an identity lesson.
by Joshua Goodman
It was only when Mario Bulacio's girlfriend abandoned him four years ago
that he finally understood what the tango was all about.
A broken heart.
But unlike the melancholic maestros of old who still don double-breasted
suits and wingtips and remember gliding across steamy prewar dance floors,
Mr. Bulacio is in his 20s.
And when he strums his sensual compositions on the guitar, he has to flip
his dreadlocks out of the way.
Bulacio isn't the only Argentine generation-Xer raised on rock 'n' roll to
have rediscovered the songs and steps made popular by his grandparents.
Despite the virtual disappearance of the big-band
orchestras and legendary singers that led to its fame, the tango has
enjoyed a much-deserved renaissance in its original birthplace over the
past few years.....
* * * * * * * * *
The rest of the article is at:
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/06/20/fp7s2-csm.shtml
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:35:27 -0400
From: Jorge Navarro <jorge @XMAIL.COM>
Subject: Misunderstood? was RE: [Trips to Bs.As.] - No longer!
The following message was written prior to Steve's reply to Sharon's message, but did not make it through due to bad format:
Is it possible that Sharon misunderstood Steve's message? Could it be that Steve simply was trying to say that his personal tango dancing experiences in Argentina "sucked", or his abilities to make friends in Argentina "sucked", or his attempts to ask local women to dance "sucked"? Hmmm...Why then Steve keeps going back there?
And what about Sharon's message? Could it be that she was simply trying to say that the "real" Argentine Tango is much, much more than a dance in a club as it might be elsewhere in the world? Another words, that the "real" Argentine Tango is a strange mix of incredible music, unbelievable dancers, good and bad characters, beautiful and elegant women of ALL ages, smoke in your eyes, pain in your feet and in your heart, the sound of porteno accent, the restaurants serving
steak dinner at 3 o'clock in the morning, and so much more...?
Yes, of course, "Forever Tango" is argentine, but everyone knows that it was made for export. Surely, you can dance to Troilo in some barn in mid-America and feel happy, but how can that compare to dancing at "El Nino Bien" to a live and real tango orchestra?
Maybe when Sharon said that she hopes you'll understand, she meant that one day you will enjoy a real beautiful Tango experience in Buenos Aires.
Happy Tango experiences to all,
Jorge.
P.S. After reading Steve's reply, which includes (IMHO) insults to all the immigrants in the USA and all the Argentine Tango dancers in Buenos Aires, I conclude that there are no longer any misunderstandings on where Steve stands.
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 20 Jun 2000 to 21 Jun 2000 (#2000-169)
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