The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 19 Jun 2000
to 20 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 19 Jun 2000 to 20 Jun 2000 (#2000-168)
There are 15 messages totalling 689 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Lunfardo (3)
2. Women in classes
3. Wondering about women.
4. Thank you Denver!
5. You're Welcome SLC
6. Susana Miller workshop in Salt Lake City
7. [Trips to Bs.As.] (4)
8. Sorry state of the art
9. Tango in Honolulu?
10. They Don't Get It (?)
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:18:44 +0200
From: Jean-Pierre Jacquet <jpjfilms @CYBERCABLE.FR>
Subject: Lunfardo
I remember seeing a couple of references to a lunfardo dictionary. Can
someone please send me some info on that?
Thanx, Jean-Pierre Jacquet
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:50:34 -0500
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: Re: Lunfardo
At 07:18 AM 6/19/00 , Jean-Pierre Jacquet wrote:
>I remember seeing a couple of references to a lunfardo dictionary. Can
>someone please send me some info on that?
>Thanx, Jean-Pierre Jacquet
Jean-Pierre,
If you're going to BsAs soon, just wait until you get there and hit the
librerias.
If you live in Paris, you might check with some of the rioplatenses at the
tango bar (the name escapes me) that's not too far from the Pere Lachaise
(sp?) cemetery -- they may know where to fing Arg books in Paris.
If all else fails, you can order 2 books from amazon.com -- they are both
Lunfardo-Spanish. (see below)
There will be a Lunfardo-English dictionary on CD out in 2001, if not later
this year.
My Rioplatense-English (incl. Lunfa) book will also be out in 2001.
Hope that helps.
Kate
www.amazon.com
Diccionario Argot-Lunfardo/ Lunfa-Argot 1A.
by Reinaldo De Santis, Corregidor (Editor). Paperback Our Price:$20.00
Vocabulario Ideologico Del Lunfardo 1A.Ed
by Gobello/Amuchastegui, Corregidor (Editor). Paperback Our Price:$20.00
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:02 -0400
From: Jason Laughlin - Bailatango NC <nc @BAILATANGO.COM>
Subject: Re: Women in classes
I'd be interested in hearing commentary about the reverse situation. I teach
regularly in the Raleigh-Durham area, and for the past 6 months or so, I've seen
a consistent trend of having more men than women in my classes. From what I've
seen, it actually is the men that show the most consistent dedication to
attendance and improvement, even though it appears that they have to work much
harder at it.
Unfortunately, the local practicas and milongas tend to have extra women (most
of whom have not been in classes regularly). I'd be interested in hearing about
similar situations and if anything was actively done to rebalance the genders
between events.
Regarding Deborah's original message, I'd like to know more about what she means
by the following:
"that it is not nice to go to a class and face 5 expert tango dancers, male, and
be the
only woman there at the class."
"when there are 15 men and 3 women. Because it is very difficult to handle that
kind of situation when you are a woman."
As an instructor in that situation, I worry primarily about whether the men will
be sporting enough to follow for half the class.
Jason Laughlin
nc @bailatango.com
http://www.bailatango.com/nc/
Melinda Bates wrote:
> part is easier than the man's.) The men go to class, learn whatever, NEVER
> practice it or dance it in a milonga and never seem to improve their leading
> or balance. I once had a regular partner with whom I went to a regular
> class.
> milonga, it was part of his repetoire. No other man I know does this.
> After a while a woman is going to ask herself why bother going to the class
> at all.
>
> Melinda
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:54:59 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay @FOXINTERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Wondering about women.
> I can say from experience that it is not nice to go to a
> class and face 5 expert tango dancers, male, and be the
> only woman there at the class. And I can say from
> experience that it is not nice to go to a workshop with
> Argentine dancers (visiting here in San Francisco) when
> there are 15 men and 3 women. Because it is very
> difficult to handle that kind of situation when you are a
> woman.
When I was in Bs.As, I went to a very high-level class and was one of
very few women. The men that were there were mainly teachers. I had
a great time! The men were very polite, and I probably would never
have gotten to dance with these talented people if it weren't for the
ratio in my favor. I was awfully tired afterward, though!
Here in Mpls, we tend to have favorable ratios in classes, and often
too many men. (this is unfortunate for me since I want to improve my
lead). The guys are great about it, though, and will lead each other.
Lois Donnay
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:57:22 MDT
From: Jane Payne <saltango @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Thank you Denver!
On behalf of the seven! dancers who travelled to Denver this past weekend
(June 16 & 17) to dance to Dan Daiz/ Tango Camerata's lovely live music at
the Mercury Cafe, I would like to thank all the gracious and gracefull
dancers who made it worth the drive from Salt Lake City. It is always a
pleasure
-Jane
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:27:48 -0600
From: "Bauer, Russell" <russell_bauer @NREL.GOV>
Subject: You're Welcome SLC
To Jane Payne and all the other Salt Lake City visitors,
You are very welcome! I'm sure that I can speak for all the dancers in
Denver - it was our pleasure having you here this past weekend. The same
goes for the group that came out in May also. We hope you can make it out
here again real soon.
And Thank you Dave for letting them stay in your home.
Russell Bauer
Denver, CO
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:17:21 MDT
From: Jane Payne <saltango @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Susana Miller workshop in Salt Lake City
Susanna Miller in Salt Lake City, Utah, June 30-July 2nd
Join us for these workshops at Dancesport in Motion, 145 East 1300 South,
Salt Lake City
Friday, June 30, 8-10 pm: Intermediate, $20
Posture, leading techniques, and balance for walking, ochos, and turns
Saturday, July 1, 12-2 pm: Intermediate, $20
Dancing in place, how to combine basic figures, floorcraft
Saturday, July, 3-5 pm: Beginning, $20
Walking, posture, blance, embrace, hearing the music.
Sunday, July 2, 10:30 am - 12:20 pm, Beginning,$20
Rhythm, rhythmic walking, basic choreography, ochos, change of direction.
Sunday, July 2, 2-4 pm, Advanced, $20
Dancing pugliese: pauses, boleos, sacadas
Milonga:
Sunday July 2nd, 8:30 pm - midnight, $5
The Green Street Social Club
610 Trolley Square
Pre-register by June 28 and recieve a 10% discount. Just send a note
detailing which workshops you would like to attend, along with a check for
$18 per workshop, to:
Michelle DeBouzek-Dornan
940 So. 900 E.
Salt Lake City, Ut 84105
Questions about the workshops, pre-registration, or where to stay in Salt
Lake? (we can help you arrange accomadations with local dancers) Phone (801)
588-0788 and leave a message.
________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:43:36 PDT
From: sharon gates <sharon7301 @NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: [Trips to Bs.As.]
Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET> wrote a lengthy and interesting post,
which also contained this: "For me tango in Argentina sucks..."
Dear Dr. Steve, =
Don't you realize what you are saying?! Don't you understand that "tango =
in
Argentina" is "THE TANGO", i.e. the real thing!
It would not be the real Tango without its Argentine culture and all its
pains.
It is not salsa, it is not swing, it is not hip-hop. =
It is NOT Tango in the United States.
It is NOT Tango in Europe.
It is NOT Tango in Asia.
It is NOT Tango in Africa.
Only the Tango in Argentina is the real Argentine Tango!
Either you accept it and get it, or you will always be dancing something
else, no matter what the steps or what the music.
I hope that some day you'll understand...
Sharon.
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:23:37 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: [Trips to Bs.As.]
Geeze Louise, uh, Sharon,
You were kinda strong with your comments to Dr Steve.
I'd have to kinda agree with you that tango in
Argentina is special,
but,
once in a while,
I felt too that "this ain't all that great".
Not sure as I'd say "this sucks", but it wasn't
always "great".
Please take into account these:
(1) Gender difference.
Tango in Argentina will be different for men and for
women visitors.
Women can bare their bellies, paint their faces,
shorten their skirts, smile a lot, etc, etc, and
at least attract a few characters for dances.
Ain't much that we guys can do, as our bare bellies
are probably not near as attractive, and wearing
lipstick ain't a guy thing either.
(2) Real thing - PART ONE
It is logically possible that tango can be
the real thing and suck too.
These are not mutually exclusive concepts.
See your nearest mathematician, philosopher
or Vulcan for a discourse on logic.
(3) Real thing - PART TWO
You said:
> Only the Tango in Argentina is the real Argentine Tango!
Sounds like a religious argument!
Does that mean that Forever Tango is not real Argentine
Tango because it is playing in the USA?
Does that mean that milonguero X, when teaching in the USA
is not teaching real Argentine Tango?
Yeah, I know these are absurd, but no more than your tautology.
Do remember that tango has evolved over the years,
so one can ask the question whether today's tango
is the "real" thing, or just that of the 1940s, or
just that of the 1910s, etc. (Boy! I can just see
a new thread starting here. What fun!)
(4) Real thing - PART THREE
When I share a beautiful dance with a partner, and
we have that tango trance, and have that long pause
after the music ends, so long that the band wonders
if there will ever be applause, for me, that is as
real as real can be. And it doesn't matter where
I am, whether in Denver, Chicago or B.A. It's the
real thing.
This is exactly what the old milongueros did. Each
of them created his own dance. Each tanguera had
her own style, her own individuality. It was real
for each of them. And so it can be for each of us.
No matter where we dance.
Sorry, but your strong words got to me.
Don't pick on someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.
Dave Schmitz
Denver
PS: Sharon, could you tell me what Tango in Africa
is like? As an amateur dance-ethnographer, I would
really love to know!
> Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET> wrote a lengthy and interesting post,
> which also contained this: "For me tango in Argentina sucks..."
>
> Dear Dr. Steve,
>
> Don't you realize what you are saying?! Don't you understand that "tango in
> Argentina" is "THE TANGO", i.e. the real thing!
>
> It would not be the real Tango without its Argentine culture and all its
> pains.
>
> It is not salsa, it is not swing, it is not hip-hop.
>
> It is NOT Tango in the United States.
>
> It is NOT Tango in Europe.
>
> It is NOT Tango in Asia.
>
> It is NOT Tango in Africa.
>
> Only the Tango in Argentina is the real Argentine Tango!
>
> Either you accept it and get it, or you will always be dancing something
> else, no matter what the steps or what the music.
>
> I hope that some day you'll understand...
>
> Sharon.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:16:58 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Lunfardo
For a flowing dictionary of lumfardo in internet go to:
http://habitantes.elsitio.com/letrango/dicc_m.htm
the write spelling requires /dicc_m.htm notice the _ between dicc and m
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:42:11 -0400
From: rtara <rtara @MAINE.RR.COM>
Subject: Sorry state of the art
I've just returned from a milonga where yet another couple from
Argentina performed. The man was another pretty good dancer and his
partner was another pretty face in a glitzy get-up. After the
performance I spoke with some of the other women in the room. They are
all accomplished dancers. We were all disappointed that, yet again,
there was nothing in the woman's dancing to emulate, admire or delight
in. She had not been dancing very long, her footwork was not precise or
pretty, she had trouble keeping up with her partner and she had no
discernable style of her own. This is not an unusual occurrence.
I wish that men would choose their partners for their dance ability and
not for their sex appeal. As men who dance tango want to observe great
male dancers, women of the tango want to watch and learn from great
women dancers. We enjoy watching great male dancers, but it is so much
more exciting for everyone if the women are equally strong and can add
to the performance. In this part of the world, male dancers often come
on their own and perform with one of the local dancers. They are good
enough dancers but in truth, generally add little to the performance.
Even if they're great dancers, they are dancing with an unfamiliar
partner and are trying so hard just to keep up with the guy that there's
no room for them to show what they can really do.
Women need to see great women dancers. Women with their own style. Women
who can interpret music. Women who have beautiful footwork. Women who
are daring in their dancing. Women who take chances. Women who play.
Women who are strong. Women who are creative.
Those women are out there.
I've been lucky enough to see and study with many of them. But I wonder
what a less experienced dancer takes away from a performance like the
one I just saw. How can women grow as dancers when the role models
presented can wrap their leg around their partner's shoulders, but can
barely make it through an ocho?
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:22:02 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [Trips to Bs.As.]
Dave, fellow listers,
I agree with you totally on this one. Sharon comes down very hard on Steve
Hoffman. All Steve has done is shared *his* experience and *his* opinion
about Argentina, Bs As and the tango scene there. I also don't see anywhere
in Steve's post where he denies the *reality* of tango in Bs As.
The little closing phrase " I hope that some day you'll understand..." seems
more than just a little patronizing and insulting. Nobody is obligated to
like what Steve says and others may have completely different experiences,
but nobody can deny Steve's experience either.
Dave, I find your arguments clear and accurate, but also humorous. From the
"gender differences" to the "religious argument", you are on target. Of
course, any woman with even a modicum of comeliness, who is willing to
spread joy and happiness in the Bs As milongas (or anywhere else for that
matter) is going to find a lot of popularity among the men.
Sure, tango in Bs As is the real thing and can be quite enjoyable, at least
to some people. OTOH, it can also be *cruel* and the scene can be rather
exclusive. My experience has been varied and not as stark as Steve's. I've
made friends (and had some pre-made friends too, it helps) and had wonderful
dances. I've also seen and heard others experience much the same as Steve
describes. Like it or not, Bs As is not perfect, neither is tango. I love
tango and I love Bs As but it does not blind me to the negative aspects that
exist in both. I am glad that Steve has chosen to share his experience and
I'm glad that Dave has posited an articulate defense of Steves argument.
Why? Simple, it validates the experiences of others who had had similar
experiences. I would like people to know and understand all the aspects of
tango. This will help to encourage those whose experiences were less than
excellent. They are not alone. Oh yeah, even if tango is not the same in Bs
As as anywhere else in the world, it is still tango and if it is more
enjoyable, so be it.
Enjoyable tango experiences to all,
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
> Geeze Louise, uh, Sharon,
>
> You were kinda strong with your comments to Dr Steve.
>
> I'd have to kinda agree with you that tango in
> Argentina is special,
> but,
> once in a while,
> I felt too that "this ain't all that great".
> Not sure as I'd say "this sucks", but it wasn't
> always "great".
major snipage................
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:50:35 -0700
From: Cammie Strange <milonguera @DELLNET.COM>
Subject: Tango in Honolulu?
I have a friend moving to Honolulu. Anyone know of any tango contacts or
information there? Thanks, Cammie Strange.
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 06:45:34 GMT
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999 @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [Trips to Bs.As.]
>From: sharon gates <sharon7301 @NETSCAPE.NET>
>Don't you realize what you are saying?! Don't you understand that "tango in
>Argentina" is "THE TANGO", i.e. the real thing!
>...
>It is not salsa, it is not swing, it is not hip-hop.
>
Sharon, thanks for clearing that up. I'd alway wondered why there are
some tangos I really like (e.g. - the one by Troilo and Calo) and
some others that I really detest (the one by Too Short and Dr. Dre).
I think it takes some courage to admit that one has had a bad
experience in a place where everyone is supposed to have a wonderful
time. Steve, Cammie, and maybe some others have shared their
experiences with us, and I'm grateful for that. Steve just said
that the tango in Argentina wasn't good for him. I didn't see
anything in his message to indicate that he didn't "get it", didn't
accept it, or didn't think it was the real thing.
"Ricardo"
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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:57:39 -0400
From: Keith Elshaw <keith @TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: They Don't Get It (?)
Please allow me to raise a perhaps uncomfortable point; I think it ought to
be.=20
It is very difficult to generalize, and yet - in this case, it can't be
helped. A particular kind of person needs to be "outed" because they have
gone beyond the bounds. They are like a virus that must raise the alarm.
Is growth (of, for instance, Tango) such a bad thing?
Is co-operation a negative - to be quashed if possible?
Something has bothered me for a few years and as time goes by, I find it
increasingly alarming - enough to want to raise the issue in this forum.
To be fore-warned is to be fore-armed.
I am an unabashed Argentinophile. I love their Tango music and culture. I a=
m
full of respect. I was married to a professional Porte=F1a Tango artist for 1=
0
years. I love them, love them, love them.
I continually meet travelling Argentinos who impress me with their grace,
style and abilities.
But I'm going to come right out and say it: the people who are the most
effective at destroying Tango growth in North America tend to be Argentinos
who emigrate and SETTLE in a particular community.
The more Argentinos there are who PROFESS to know Tango in your city, the
less growth you will have in Tango.
They all think they own it.
They all think everyone else (PARTICULARLY other Argentinos) are full of
s___. They want to control it. They create Politics with a capital "P".
This is in contradistinction to the travelling knowledge-banks like Gavito
and others such as Dan Diaz who come into a city and HELP.
I'm referring instead to people who settle-down in a community and ooze
venom in the guise of "teaching" and "loving Tango." (And to a lesser
extent, the people who go to B.A. and come back after 2 weeks with "the
truth.")
From what I can see - and I would love to be proven wrong - Tango grows
where there are no Porte=F1os.
Put two (or gawd help you, more) in a city and they will create enmity
wherever possible.=20
I think they are not as smart as they think they are.
OK, you say, be specific. Have the courage of your convictions, and name
names (so to speak).
Can-do, I say - recognizing the interest of the casual reader ... but let m=
e
also maintain enough discretion to maintain my desired cordial relationship=
s
with people I truly like on a one-to-one basis.
I will say this: where I have lived, I have seen them screw things up
royally every time they can. It gets continually worse. They are far less
mature than the new people who come into Tango that they ridicule. (Tango
"Teachers" tend to follow closely behind in the bullshit battle of exclusiv=
e
politics).
Porte=F1os have been through a lot. They are special. Tango is special. Etc.
If I have to, I will talk specifically about cities I have direct knowledge
of. I would rather leave it more general and I am sure you can understand
why.
But can we talk about this? Has anyone else seen the same problem?
If not, I do want to warn you.
They don't get the co-operation thing.
If you feel you would like to have some Argentinos come live in your city, =
I
know at least a couple of cities that would love to ship you theirs ...
Are Canadians abroad like this about hockey? Are Flamenco teachers as
immature and petulant?
I will enjoy the day that Argentinos grow up and respect other people more.
And respect themselves enough to relax and let other people also have a
place and an opinion.
Again - I'm talking about the ones who settle down, not the travelling
teachers.
Speaking on behalf of Tango lovers in North America, because I have earned
the right, I say to people from Buenos Aires and those who have married
them:
HELLOOOO!!! Guess what? Yours smells too!!
It's OK to be complicated and emotional.
It's worse than sick to think you own it and should control it. You want th=
e
Midas touch? It's yours. Read your history. Enjoy what you get.
You want to truly love Tango? Relax. Deign to let others also live and danc=
e
and teach and promote. It won't kill you.
Those of you who have no local Argentinos (and are shaking your heads over
the threads about dancing in their Milongas), crank-up up the music and
enjoy ... and thank your lucky stars you don't know what I'm talking about.
Best,
ke
http://ToTANGO.net
=20
End of TANGO-L Digest - 19 Jun 2000 to 20 Jun 2000 (#2000-168)
**************************************************************