The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 17 Jun 2000
to 18 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:00:34 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 17 Jun 2000 to 18 Jun 2000 (#2000-166)
There are 8 messages totalling 380 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Fw: Trips to Bs.As.
2. Trips to Bs.As.
3. women in waiting...
4. Sexually transmited disease prevention.
5. Women in classes
6. Risky Behavior
7. stds. prevention
8. Risky behavior
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:31:15 +0200
From: Virginia Gift <vgift @ATTGLOBAL.NET>
Subject: Fw: Trips to Bs.As.
Original Message-----
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:33 AM
Subject: Trips to Bs.As.
>Thanks to Steve for speaking so frankly. It certainly makes the post
>interesting. A trip to Argentina is a big expense in money, effort and
time
>for North Americans. Deciding the cost/benefit ratio is only sensible.
>
>Years ago I went to school in Mexico city, at the National University. My
>experience of American women students, tourists, whatever was exactly as he
>suggests (and this was a long time ago). I observed many many young women
>having the "social" time of their lives. My take on it was they were
either
>very young and therefore away from home for the first time, ill equipped to
>fend off (much less understand) the very attractive Mexicanos. OR they
were
>maybe a little older, not very attractive by American standards, and had
>NEVER experienced the rush of excitement that comes from being pursued.
>Both categories of women were very happy to fall into the arms of these
>attentive men. And they made life very difficult for the rest of us. The
>assumption that all American women were promiscuous was almost always
>correct. Any time men suspected I was American (I'm Hispanic in origin,
but
>American by birth) the come on was very direct and persistent. I
eventually
>started wearing a "wedding ring" to school in an effort to make my life
>bearable.
>
>The only time I was able to enjoy Latin America without such attentions was
>a trip to Nicaragua when I was 7 months pregnant. It was very amusing. In
>a crowded room I could see men notice me, perk up, begin to swagger over to
>make their pitch - until the crowd parted and they could see ALL of me.
>They immediately turned away (mothers are madonnas). I decided right then
>that if I made another trip, I would be packing a pillow!
>
>I appreciate the open sharing of politically incorrect views, especially
>when they are delivered without ad hominum attacks. Thank you very much.
>
>Melinda
>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:32:13 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Trips to Bs.As.
Hi List,
Because of the turn this thread has taken, I must mention the
obvious here, something that no one ever talks about. But
because of my business, and reading articles and keeping up
with the news on this topic for professional reasons, it's up
to me to point it out on this list.
Steve writes about women who have
<< a wild and incredible time in Bs.As. She was dating
multiple men simultaneously; she was stacking date upon
date, leaving some men at 2 am to meet other men at 3 am;
she had a 20 year old lover, among other sexual partners.
She was dumping another man the following day so she could
go cruising by herself in Recoleta, for
the "most beautiful men in the world". This went on and
on, tales of sexual connections and "gorgeous" men, spilling
out as fast as she could speak. >>
Yes, this happens every day to female tourists in BsAs.
The pheromones, the sensuality of the close embrace, the freedom
of being far from home and domestic ties, the fact of a limited
time in Argentina causes many women, especially those from
*colder* countries, and this certainly includes the U.S., to go
for it. There are hundreds of attractive men in BsAs who are
happy to oblige, many with the thought of being able to leave
Argentina through the largesse of one of these women.
OK, but do you think that these men carry condoms around in
their pockets? Is it possible that even though that have sexual
connections with hundreds of women, that they are immune to
carrying STDs, including HIV?
So ladies, plan on carrying protection yourself. The men are
generally willing to use it if YOU have it; they DON"T. Don't
depend on picking up some at a Kiosco, either, because the
quality isn't good and you can't be sure of how old they are.
If you think there is the slightest chance you may find yourself
in a situation of passion, PLEASE pack some high-quality, FDA
approved protection in with your dancing shoes and makeup.
As *receivers* of bodily fluids, women are most at risk in
sexual relationships--of the more than 20 STDs, and of course
pregnancy. Don't believe anything the man has to say on this
topic, just give him a condom and insist he wear it. You don't
want a permanent souvenir of that nature to live with forever
after--and to hand out yourself.
Sorry for the lecture, but if you read the stats everyday like I do,
you wouldn't need me to warn you.
Take care!
Cherie
Los Angeles
http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 04:32:08 -0700
From: Raul Martinez <raulm23 @PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: women in waiting...
Manuel,
I disagree, not strongly, but disagree nonetheless.
What is one doing tango for? I do it for enjoyment, to have fun. Not for
perfection. When I go to a milonga I frankly don't care whether others are
watching me dance. I don't care about establishing "credibility." I know my
limitations and I do what can do: end of story. If it means that someone may
turn me down later because they don't like the way I dance, so be it. Others
won't turn me down, so I'll get my chance to dance. What you suggest requires
too much planning and calculation and can make the event unnecessarily
stressful. Hell, just enjoy the moment the best you can!
One of the refrains of Argentinian male tango teachers that I have heard many
times is not to be afraid if one makes mistakes while dancing as there is no
improvement without mistakes. No one learns tango perfectly from the get go. So
I adopt the attitude that I'll do the best I can, and if that isn't good enough
for somebody, that's their problem, not mine. I just plug along.
Regards,
Raul Martinez
white95r wrote:
> It is crucial to observe and notice carefully who dances with who and how
> they dance. It is the sign of an inexperienced dancer to rush to the floor,
> particularly at a strange milonga or one where there are a lot of strangers.
> You want your first dance to be a good experience and to show that you can
> dance. This is how one establishes credibility at milongas. If you rush to
> the floor with an incompatible or inept partner, you hurt your chances (and
> your partner's) for the rest of the evening. You also must learn how the
> music is played and what you can expect. The music you dance to is as
> important as the partner you choose.
>
>
> Manuel
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:14:08 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Sexually transmited disease prevention.
CHERIE MAGNUS,
Advices women to take condoms with them to Argentina, because
the quality of Argentinean Condoms cannot be trusted. She prints this advice
because ("Sorry for the lecture, but if you read the stats everyday like I
do,
you wouldn't need me to warn you.") she reads the statistics that she
assumes the other women do not read.
I think that to advice about prevention of sexually transmitted diseases is
a good cause; what really surprises me is the implication, on the part of
somebody who reads statistics, that sexually transmitted diseases are more
prevalent in Argentina than in the USA, when the reality is many folds the
oposite.
Argentina has a very low incidence of sexually transmitted diseases, and a
very low birth rate. This is in great part due to the fact that the use of
condoms is the prevalent birth control method, Argentinean males have been
using them for several generations.
The Public Health service has periodic campains advicing on the use of
condoms. At times you are stopped, in the street by beautiful ladies
dressed as if they had just landed from Mars, to give you literature on
prevention of STDs, with an envelope containing condoms. There are daily
programs on TV to the same effect.
Most cities offer a telephone service of home delivery of condoms, they
arrive within 30 minutes,(3 for 3 to 5 dollars).
Furthermore Argentineans strongly dislike American made condoms because they
are to big and to thick.
So my advice as a Medical Doctor to people of both sexes, (why should we
protect women only, mostly when we males are already a minority in life as
well as at the milongas)is *always* protect yourselves from STDs.
irrespectively from where you are. By the way while in Argentina buy a few
Argentinean condoms... you will see what I am talking about. ::)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:43:41 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Women in classes
Deborah wrote about the proportion of women to men in classes. In the
Washington DC area, classes are most often balanced, or there are more
women. I see the same people in class all the time. From what I can
observe, the women work hard and improve consistently. ( I KNOW the woman's
part is easier than the man's.) The men go to class, learn whatever, NEVER
practice it or dance it in a milonga and never seem to improve their leading
or balance. I once had a regular partner with whom I went to a regular
class. When the practica started, he would dance the new figure over and
over with me and all the other ladies, refining his lead and execution. I
assume he practiced it at home as well. By the next time we went to a
milonga, it was part of his repetoire. No other man I know does this.
After a while a woman is going to ask herself why bother going to the class
at all.
Melinda
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:40:44 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Risky Behavior
Hi List,
Sergio writes about my
<< implication, on the part of somebody who reads statistics,
that sexually transmitted diseases are more
prevalent in Argentina than in the USA, >>
WOW! I certainly did NOT mean to imply that STDs are worse in
Argentina than in the U.S.! To tell you the truth, that thought never
occurred to me. What I hope I said was that any woman
who behaves as promiscuously as Steve described, or indeed any
woman, or person, having sex outside of a committed long-term relationship
ANYWHERE, needs to insist on protection. Why?
Sergio asks, <<(why should we protect women only, mostly when we males are
already a minority in life as well as at the milongas)>>
Because, as I wrote in my post, <<as *receivers* of bodily fluids,
women are most at risk in sexual relationships--for the more
than 20 STDs, and of course pregnancy.>>
(Of course in gay male relationships, it is also the male receiver
who is more at risk, but that isn't the topic.)
As for Argentine condoms, let's just say that the variety and
quality of shapes, types, thickness, and sizes of condoms which
are easily purchased in BsAs by American women on vacation
--well, it leaves something to be desired. Why not simply
bring your own? After all, it's your health and the health of all
your future partners at stake. At the moment of truth, it's too
late to be unprepared--or to go shopping!
(It's amazing to me how so many people enjoy becoming irate
and defensive over the smallest imagined slight.)
OK, everybody, flame me. Go ahead, I'm ready.
Cherie Magnus
"One size does NOT fit all!"
http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:47:42 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: stds. prevention
CHERIE MAGNUS,
Advices women to take condoms with them to Argentina, because
the quality of Argentinean Condoms cannot be trusted. She prints this advice
because ("Sorry for the lecture, but if you read the stats everyday like I
do,
you wouldn't need me to warn you.") she reads the statistics that she
assumes the other women do not read.
I think that to advice about prevention of sexually transmitted diseases is
a good cause; what really surprises me is the implication, on the part of
somebody who reads statistics, that sexually transmitted diseases are more
prevalent in Argentina than in the USA, when the reality is many folds the
opposite.
Argentina has a very low incidence of sexually transmitted diseases, and a
very low birth rate. This is in great part due to the fact that the use of
condoms is the prevalent birth control method, Argentinean males have been
using them for several generations.
The Public Health service has periodic campaigns advising on the use of
condoms. At times you are stopped, in the street by beautiful ladies
dressed as if they had just landed from Mars, to give you literature on
prevention of STDs, with an envelope containing condoms. There are daily
programs on TV to the same effect.
Most cities offer a telephone service of home delivery of condoms, they
arrive within 30 minutes,(3 for 3 to 5 dollars).
Furthermore Argentineans strongly dislike American made condoms because they
are to big and to thick.
So my advice as a Medical Doctor to people of both sexes, (why should we
protect women only, mostly when we males are already a minority in life as
well as at the milongas)is *always* protect yourselves from STDs.
irrespectively from where you are. By the way while in Argentina buy a few
Argentinean condoms... you will see what I am talking about. ::)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:51:44 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Risky behavior
Sherie Magnus writes:
"Sergio asks, <<(why should we protect women only, mostly when we males are
already a minority in life as well as at the milongas)>>
Because, as I wrote in my post, <<as *receivers* of bodily fluids,
women are most at risk in sexual relationships--for the more
than 20 STDs, and of course pregnancy.>>"
I do not wish to flame you but I have to clarify certain assertions that are
not accurate.
Dear Sherie I wonder what are you talking about. You are again implying that
the "more than 20 STDs." are passed from person to person by the semen that
the man deposits inside the female; this is true when it comes to AIDS but
it is not true when it comes to the other diseases. A woman infected with
gonorrhea, herpes, syphilis, clamydia, Condyloma acuminatum, etc. can
transmit those conditions to the man the same way as the man infected can
transmit the disease to the woman. The transmission is by contact of the
sexual mucosa with a sore, a blister, a liquid that may be secreted by the
female or the male.
Aids can also be transmitted to a healthy man by an infected female. She
carries the virus in the blood, the saliva the vaginal fluids, etc.
Sherie also says "As for Argentine condoms, let's just say that the variety
and
quality of shapes, types, thickness, and sizes of condoms which
are easily purchased in BsAs by American women on vacation
--well, it leaves something to be desired."
-Where do you get this information from?
Let me tell you once more your pretension that the Argentinean condoms are
unsafe is preposterous, absurd, never heard such a thing.
I highly commend you for your concern with respect to the American female
visiting Argentina but...
You should also be concerned with the Argentinean boys and advise them to
use condoms always but mostly when they have contact with tourists coming
from countries with high incidence of STDs.or not??
You are implying that Argentinean men do not carry or do not wish to use
condoms, this in most cases is not true. Quite the opposite Argentinean men
are more prone to use condom than those of many other countries. This use
has always been widely accepted by both females and males in Argentina.
Maybe you know things that I ignore. You seem to know a lot about the
subject but....
Do not assume that what is true in one country is also true in another one.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 17 Jun 2000 to 18 Jun 2000 (#2000-166)
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