The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 16 Jun 2000
to 17 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 03:00:44 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Jun 2000 to 17 Jun 2000 (#2000-165)
There are 14 messages totalling 794 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Archive of: women waiting....
2. About di Sarli CD
3. Women wanting to dance and waiting
4. Etiquette at the Milongas - An Italian view. (2)
5. NSOD8CBWOIDBS
6. New Orlando Paiva video
7. Trips to Bs.As. (2)
8. varios
9. women in waiting... (2)
10. Italian etiquette
11. Wondering about women.
Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to Tango-A rather than to
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:15:39 +0200
From: Garrit Fleischmann <truco @GMX.DE>
Subject: Archive of: women waiting....
Hello List, hi Frank
I have compiled all the postings of the thread:
"woman waiting and wanting to dance"
and put it on my webpage:
http://www.cyber-tango.com/art/women.html
so everybody will be able to read the postings, even
the ones not subscribed to the list.
If there is someone who doesn't want his/her posting
to be put on the web, please send me a mail, and I will
remove it.
(for an overview of postings in Tango-L I have compiled:
http://www.cyber-tango.com/e/art_e.html)
Enjoy,
Garrit
________________________________________________________
Garrit Fleischmann - Frankfurt/Germany
email: kontakt @cyber-tango.com
Tango: http://www.cyber-tango.com/
________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:02:21 +0200
From: Garrit Fleischmann <truco @GMX.DE>
Subject: About di Sarli CD
Hello List,
I have a question about a CD by Carlos di Sarli:
Lo Mejor de Carlos di Sarli (Music Hall 246509)
On the back, there are 12 titles listed, but on the
CD there are 14 tracks!
I guess that other buyers of this nice CD have realized
the same thing. Now I would like to know the titels of
the "bonus tracks".
The first is track No. 7, between "Bar Exposicion" and
"Don Juan", the second is the last track, after "Re-Fa-Si".
I would be happy if someone could provide this information.
The trouble is, I know these songs, but I can't remember their
titles.
Thanks in advance,
Garrit
________________________________________________________
Garrit Fleischmann - Frankfurt/Germany
email: kontakt @cyber-tango.com
Tango: http://www.cyber-tango.com/
________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:14:28 -0500
From: Steven Lee <tango-1 @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Women wanting to dance and waiting
I agree with Sergio's phrase -
> (while in Rome do as Romans do)
Until the world becomes one, observing the local customs initially and
doing what is expected makes life less traumatic.
I think the local customs should take precedence first, then after an
understanding is made, other customs can be observed.
As a North American, I wouldn't try driving on the right side of the road
in England. Even if I am in my big old American car with American
passengers.
Steve
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:10:26 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Etiquette at the Milongas - An Italian view.
I have received many comments in reference to the rules at the milongas in
Argentina. Many came in foreign languages, from Europe, mostly France and
Italy. I am reproducing one from Italy which I translated. The oposite
opinion to the one I answered yesterday, also coming from Italy.
Sergio,
Queste regole sono semplici da comprendere perche' sono uguali anche in
Italia. Certamente se una ragazza e' accompagnata vuol dire che ha il
compagno che l'interessa, a meno che tutti sanno che sono amici i quali
fanno parte di un circolo d'amici.
Sebbene in Italia andai a ballare col mio amico Pino, un'altro uomo voleva
ballare con me (ebbe il coraggio di dirmi pure che avevo delle coscie
straordinarie, perche' non voleva dire "culo"). Ma io non avrei mai offeso
Pino, seppure solo amici, ballando con un'altro uomo. L'etichetta e' molto
importante per una ragazza da sapere come comportarsi in una sala da ballo,
oppure anche in societa'. Una ragazza di classe non va ad un'opera
accompagnata da un'uomo per poi cercare di prederne un'altro. Pensavo che
era uguale nel mondo intero.
Ciao
Malena
Sergio, this rules are very easy to understand because they are the same as
in Italy. If a girl is escorted, this means that she already has the partner
she is interested in, unless there is a different understanding in a circle
of friends.
I used to go dancing with my friend Pino, there was another man that wanted
to dance with me ( he even dared to tell me that I possessed extraordinary
"things" obviously referring to my derriere). To dance with another man,
IMO would have offended Pino, even when we were only friends. It is very
important to follow a certain etiquette at the dancing hall, and even in
society. A lady with class does not go to an event with a man to try to look
for another one. I thought it was the same all over the world.
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:58 -0400
From: Enrico Massetti <enrico @AAANETSERV.COM>
Subject: Re: Etiquette at the Milongas - An Italian view.
Malena, from Italy:
>To dance with another man,
> IMO would have offended Pino, even when we were only friends. It is very
> important to follow a certain etiquette at the dancing hall, and even in
> society. A lady with class does not go to an event with a man to try to
look
> for another one.
Dear Malena,
I don't know where in Italy you go to dance, it looks to me more like Sicily
than Northern Italy, and it can make a world of difference.
As Italian living outside Italy I have an unique point of view on the
etiquette:
I often go to Italy, and I try to go dancing tango when there. I "mix with
the
crowd" as I don't stand out as a foreign visitor, with whom different rules
of courtesy could apply.
I invited to dance ladies of all ages and skills, I had my share of refusals
for whatever reason (I would say, all refusals were done with "Italian
class"),
I invited single ladies (usually sitting with other ladies friends at a
table),
as well as accompanied ladies, when left alone by their partner. I never
try to
break a couple when it's obvious they are enjoying each-other company.
I dance in Northern Italy, and in the rest of Europe in addition to the
Americas,
and I did not find any difference in this respect. I don't know anything
about
Southern Italy, it used to be very different down there, but things have
changed
very much also there.
So, Malian, where do you dance tango?
Enrico
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:37:24 -0500
From: Larry Stevens <tanguero @POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: NSOD8CBWOIDBS
From my earliest exposure to A.T., I've been of the opinion that the
best way to learn the improvisational aspects of this beautiful dance
is to find several ways into and out of any given pattern, to break
it up and put it together again, differently. I'm forever thinking
ahead to the next step: "Should I continue or change what I'm doing?"
It's terribly easy to fall into a rut of doing the same pattern over
and over because we all seek comfort and avoid pain at all cost. But
that's not very challenging, is it? I much prefer the occasional
embarrassment of painting myself and my partner into a corner to the
predictability and boredom of dancing the same pattern ad infinitum.
Larry Stevens
tanguero @mac.com
>If any followers have trouble doing an 8CB, or not doing it, they are
>either not following or their leaders are not leading. And any teacher who
>teaches any combination as something to be done from start to finish without
>interruption is not teaching Argentine tango. In intermediate
>classes we insist
>that students find different ways into and out of the combination
>being learned,
>that they try to interrupt it in the middle and finish differently, etc.
--
Tango Is Life. Everything Else Is Just A Dance.
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:38:25 -0700
From: Al & Barbara <batango @SLIP.NET>
Subject: New Orlando Paiva video
Dear List,
At last ! "Orlando Paiva and Susana Teach Argentine Tango", the definitive
video on the great master's steps and technique is available from TangoBar
Productions. To find out more about it, please go to:
http://www.tangobar-productions.com or e-mail me at Al @tangobar-productions.com
Abrazos, Al Garvey
Original Message-----
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 12:01 AM
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 15 Jun 2000 to 16 Jun 2000 (#2000-164)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:22:22 -0800
From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET>
Subject: Trips to Bs.As.
Regarding the experiences of tourists in Bs.As., the advisability of a trip
there, and the comments by Sergio.
=46irst, among the oft-mentioned descriptions of the milonguero's code
(whether women get asked to dance or not, and why), Sergio's essay of two
days ago probably says it better than anything we have read in awhile.
But I would suggest one additional thing: It is not just "respect" for the
other man, and that man's connection or association to a woman at the
milonga, that determines whether he asks that woman to dance. Yes, this is
a part of the code of the "macho", the "male". But it is also his
unwillingness to take "second place" to another man that makes him adverse
to asking a woman who has been seen in a milonga talking more than a minute
or so with a man, allowing a man to sit at her table, or taking a beverage
offered by him. The "pride" of a milonguero, and I might say, of
Argentinean men in general, is so great, so elaborate, that he may not
bring himself to even speak or dance with the woman who has paid even a
modicum of attention to another male, much less entered the milonga with
him. This is why, in Buenos Aires, the women do sit by themselves, or with
a woman companion, while the men tend to stand at the bar, or at strategic
places around the room. For a woman to spend more than a few moments
greeting, or talking to, even a long-time male friend is sort of a kiss of
death as far as dancing options that night.
But, to apply this same analysis to the case of the visitor, particularly
the woman visitor, would be a great misconception.
To begin with, I respond to Sergio's letter of yesterday regarding the
commentary about whether Bs.As. is worth a visit, or whether the values are
too archaic (sexist) for us gringos: I think he again spoke well, and
fairly. Bs.As. IS a fantastic city, and Argentina IS a unique country:
demographically, the most European country in the world, far more than
Europe itself is nowadays. The country is spectacularly beautiful as well.
But we are here to talk about tango, no? And this is where another element
of analysis needs to be mentioned.
My version of the topic is one that makes many people shy away, especially
in the Politically Correct Amerika of today, where everyone is supposed to
be made politically and socially equal, and no one is supposed to get their
feelings hurt. But it can hurt to go to a place, or experience a thing,
and find that the reality bites harder than a politically incorrect
discourse back home. So here it is:
Sergio describes Buenos Aires itself, and it's qualities, exploring the
idea of whether one might enjoy it or not. But, like Heisenberg, we must
consider the observer, the "test instrument" himself or herself, to
determine whether one's experience will meet one's expectations or not.
This is a subject that makes people uncomfortable, but, since I have said
it before here, I will say it again, very plainly:
Basically it's this: A visit to Argentina can be wonderful or not, above
and beyond your age, sex, and looks... but a tango experience will be
massively determined (in most cases) by those three criteria.
I have already described by own experience, as a solo tourist male trying
to get a foot in the tango door in Bs.As. What I found was that I was
walled off, left out and ignored more than in any of the other 40 countries
I have visited in the last 20 years. I have never felt more isolated in my
entire life. Virtually no one made any attempt to ease my way, or be
friendly to me. (P.S. That was tough, but I can take it; I am NOT using
this letter to complain or seek a response from anyone regarding my own
personal experience, so, please save your breath.) Let's leave my own
situation aside (unless you are a man and care to think about the
implications for yourself).
Consider the plight of the older American woman in Bs.As. (I never saw any
older European women): From everything I've seen and heard, it is very
hard to get any significant dancing in, and many of such women who
discussed their trips speak of being ignored and left to sit, night after
night. Thus, we have heard in recent months, advice that ranges as far as
hiring a man to dance with you (a cash deal), and other bizarre schemes.
(By the way, "older" in Latin America, is relative. In countries where
half of all females are under 18, and the age of 15 is considered a social
transition to womanhood, with all of the sexual and dating rights of a
woman, being even 40 years old can be considered "older" in some settings.)
Plus, the Argentinean women are extraordinarily beautiful and slender
(albeit surprisingly cold and unfriendly, IMHO). Even a 2-decade long
regular connection with Brazil left me totally unprepared for the
remarkable looks and style of the Argentine women. As I said a few months
ago: "Women, (American women), this is your competition."
But the case of the younger and attractive American or European woman is
different - VERY different, as it is, and has been for 30+ years, all over
the world. The key is... sex. Either actual sex, or, the anticipation of
and hope for sex. Let me give you an example:
On my fourth and most recent trip to Bs.As., I ran into two individuals
(both U.S. residents) that I had seen over the years in our local S.F. Bay
Area milongas. One was an young, handsome, intelligent and classy
Argentine guy who has lived in the U.S. for many years. I quoted him
before. He was having (like me) a very tough time getting any dances or
making any connection there. He said to me: "Tango is cruel."
The other was an American woman in her middle or late 30s (I presume), from
San Fransisco. I barely knew her name, but recognized her as a fair
dancer, with adequate looks, a somewhat un-athletic figure, and sort of a
sultry style. She dances with a number of men in our milongas, but never
seemed to have a male friend or any particular attention from men. We ran
into each other in the crowded aisle of a milonga in Bs.As. (Almagro).
Within no more than 5-10 seconds, with zero previous history of
conversation or familiarity between us, she launched into a verbal blitz
that would have amazed many of you, I think. In almost a manic and
frenzied manner, she bagan a rapid-fire description of having a wild and
incredible time in Bs.As. She was dating multiple men simultaneously; she
was stacking date upon date, leaving some men at 2 am to meet other men at
3 am; she had a 20 year old lover, among other sexual partners. She was
dumping another man the following day so she could go cruising by herself
in Recoleta, for the "most beautiful men in the world". This went on and
on, tales of sexual connections and "gorgeous" men, spilling out as fast as
she could speak.
She was high, nearly manic, practically in an orgasmic frenzy.... high on a
massive sexual and social binge. Was this experience she was having due to
her being pretty? No. There were hundreds of prettier women in the
milongas. Because she was slim? No, she was not slim. Because she was a
good dancer? No, she was decidedly not a very good dancer. Because she
was a intelligent or educated? Not as far as I could see. Because she had
elegant manners and grace? Well, from the number of 4-letter words (like
the f-word and the s-word) she was using to describe her escapades, I don't
think her breeding or manners were all that great.
So, *why* was she having such a great time in Buenos Aires???
Why, indeed. The usual reason. If I hadn't personally observed and heard
the very same kind of story from countless American women in European and
Latin countries, over a course of nearly three decades of traveling around
the world, I might have been amazed. But I wasn't. Let's face it. This
life-style is routine for many younger female tourists traveling solo.
Sure, there are many who don't do this kind of stuff, but there are many
who do. People seem to have a strange need to deny the obvious in certain
circumstances. Deny it if they will, but people who have traveled a lot,
and know the history of the North American solo female traveler in foreign
countries over the last 30 years ... know what's going on.
Now, as regards tango, and Buenos Aires. Whether or not a given tourist
woman cares to go down the road that my San Francisco acquaintance chose,
or not, the younger and prettier tanguera will reap a certain benefit (also
risk, or potential harrassment) based on the activities of the women who
have gone before. They are new, different, exciting, a challenge - to the
Argentine man. Although not as attractive as the average Argentina, she is
exotic in her own way. He is the master, the milonguero; she is the
supplicant, the pilgrim. He knows the tanguerias, the caf=E9s, the vistas;
she is eager and hungry for the tango experience, the *connection*, the
embrace. He may have a car; she's been using the bus. He has an
apartment; she's in a dingy tango-hotel in the MIcrocentro.
Thus, we have the new breed of Milonguero Specialist in Tourist Tangueras,
and all the various scammers and seducers and lovers we have heard about on
this forum (from women, remember !!; see: "The Dark Side", by Cherie
Magnus, 13 May 2000). He specializes in foreign women dancers. He has
business cards printed up (Juan, Tango Teacher; home phone xxx-xxxx), and
he is ready and willing to show you anything you want to see, if you are
young and/or pretty: Gardel's statue, Recoleta Cemetery, the Costanera
Sur... you name it. He knows what he stategies are. He plans to "get
lucky", and chances are, he can! THEY don't care if you are talking to
another man at a milonga. THEY don't mind if an youthful or pretty foreign
woman walks across the floor to ask them to dance (heck, I didn't either
when this German woman did that for me; I actually got to dance a few!).
THEY don't mind your funky tango manners, because the tango they have in
mind is done at at 90-degree axis compared to the ordinary tango. Go for
the gusto. You're an American after all! It's your right!
But hey, this is life. It's always been that way. What's perhaps
different in the last few decades is the enormous escalation in
expectations and tactics and sexual behavior based on the sexual and
feminist revolutions in America and to a lesser extent, Europe. (However,
for all our talk in the U.S. about the liberal European, those women are
unequivocally different from Americans when traveling. In my last trip
several months ago (Cuba, Mexico's Mayan Riviera, Brazil and Argentina), I
saw no less than 500 European women tourists, but not a single one was
visibly drunk, none let men paw them in bars, none were cruising for less
educated and generally imnpoverished male "babes", none were seen
staggering off for sexual trysts with Latin pick-up artists... a completely
different response to the same environment.)
So, this is why I say that the answer to whether one should want to visit
Bs.As. for tango is based only partly on the nature of the city and the
*Code* that Sergio describes so well, but perhaps even more on the age,
sex, looks - and intentions - of the person considering the vacation.
In spite of all this, it should be pointed out that, with the right
attitude, anyone can have a great trip to Argentina. The vast majority of
tango people who go there (as far as I can see), spend little or no time
outside of the most urban, congested, polluted sections of central Buenos
Aires. They never see the extraordinary beauty of the country, a grandeur,
an opennness, a landscape and a sense of freedom that I associate with the
history of our own magnificent Western United States, but which disappeared
here at the turn of the last century. Why don't people go to see the
sunny, super-clean and classy beach resort of Mar del Plata?, or Aconcagua,
the highest peak in the Americas?, or Tierra del Fuego, the southernmost
inhabited area of the planet?, or Mendo=E7a with its fabulous wine country?,
or Patagonia, Bariloche... places of indescribable beauty.
=46or me, tango in Argentina sucks. I can dance 200 dances here in the U.S.=
,
with nice, intelligent, attractive women who are excellent dancers...
before I can dance 2 dances in Buenos Aires. So what !? There is
everything else in that nation to appreciate without even thinking about
tango.
You are a hot American babe? Well, you can go to Bs.As. and have THE TIME
OF YOUR LIFE, and you can go back again and again. You can have anything
you want there, if you play your cards right.
You're an older American woman? In most cases, unless you really dedicate
yourself there and spend a LOT of time at it, like Janis Kenyon, you're
going to get disappointed. Social and sexual competition in Argentina is
cutthroat, nothing like you've seen here in feminist, bland, effete,
socially-engineered Amerika. You may say life isn't fair here? Well, it's
a LOT less fair there.
We all have our own experiences and history and demographic/physical
profile Just be aware of who you are, what you're looking for, and how
that factors into the culture of Argentina and the milongas.
And, have a nice day,
Steve Hoffman
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:30:07 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: varios
Having lunch at work: pizza garnished with TANGO-L. Letting go of all
the technical details of launching & communicating with NT programs
from Unix systems. Fascinating stuff, but I'm losing the forest for
the trees. And what's the best medicine for that? Tango!
Sergio writes
> Buenos Aires has a powerful magnetism .... The initial aura of
> grandeur and prosperity has been decreasing in the last decades due
> to economical problems.
My impression is that the last decade has seen major improvements in
the economic well-being of Argentina, though there are still major
problems. Are things getting worse, not better?
____________________________________________________________________
Dave Schmitz writes
> ... it is... advisable to observe and notice everything before
> jumping in the dance floor with the first person one sees.
Not for me. I dive right in. I'm arrogant enough (with 35+ years of
dancing, 11+ in tango) to believe that I'm a great partner. But part
of that is that I also do what you suggest, Dave.
> [Don't] start with a lot of [fancy stuff].... Only the simplest and
> best executed steps should be done. ... avoid difficult dances at
> first with a new partner. ...your partner might not have the ability
> or desire to do this. You find this out by watching and observing.
I find this out by asking a woman who looks eager to dance & then
getting acquainted with her by feeling how she moves, not by watching.
And I do my damndest to make sure she enjoys her first dance with me.
And I don't care if she's got a lot of dance experience or none at
all. What I want is a woman who has good body control & (even more
important) loves dancing.
____________________________________________________________________
Linda Valentino writes
> ...refrain from directly asking an Argentinean man to dance....
On the other hand (as Linda suggests obliquely) making his
acquaintance with a nod & smile, or asking a question (if you share a
language) is a good way to get asked to dance. Maybe he looks
unapproachable. But chances are (if he's new to this milonga or
city or country) he's feeling lost & alone & covering it up with a
stern appearance.
____________________________________________________________________
Deborah Holm writes
> I guess nobody wants to see my posting [about Nieves & Copes]. But
> I'll just keep trying until somebody does...
For God's sake, don't! I read your original, & enjoyed it tremendously. No response does NOT mean we didn't feel that way.
____________________________________________________________________
Someone just dropped an article on my desk about a product called
Virtual Network Computing. Lunchbreak is over!
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:25:14 -0600
From: "Bauer, Russell" <russell_bauer @NREL.GOV>
Subject: Re: women in waiting...
On Wed 6/14/00 11:26 PM, Mirella Massetti wrote:
>>Men never "sit and wait", women do.
On Thu 6/15/00 11:32 AM, Dave Schmitz responded by writing:
>Not true. We do have a few quiet men, acceptable dancers,
>who sit on the sidelines and watch and wait.
>You are correct in that these guys are probably not
>waiting to be asked. But they are still sitting and
>waiting. For what, I don't know.
Dear fellow Tango Enthusiasts,
I would like to add my observations and thoughts on this subject, which is
quite different than what has been written so far. I am a male.
Last Friday (June 9th) at the milonga in Denver, a lot of men were sitting
and waiting on the sidelines because the men outnumbered the woman by a
fairly large margin. This is not the only tango event I've been to where
the men outnumber the women. The practica in Denver this last Tuesday had a
few more men than women. The milonga on June 2nd in Denver was almost even,
but I believe had a few more men than women. The milonga in Boulder in May
had two or three extra men. There have also been other events where there
were more men than women. Of course, many times at the milongas, women
outnumber the men. My point is that in my experience, it's not true that
there are more women than men at all tango events or even at almost all
tango events. If there are cities with overwhelming number of women than
men at all milongas, then I would like to visit.
I realize that perhaps I take notice more when there are more men and so it
sticks in my mind more than when there are more women. I would like to know
what the actual count of men and women who came to dance is at the milongas
and practicas. I contend it's not so unbalanced - in the Denver area
anyway. My guess too, is that there may be more women in the tango
community, but that more men come to the milongas more regularly. I've also
notice that with live music, there are more women and with DJ'ed music there
are more men.
I also realize that when there are more men than women, men don't sit and
wait to be asked to dance. We sit and wait to have someone available to ask
though. I think that if you are woman, go ahead and ask men to dance. I
don't see what the problem is with this - (I was raised in the USA in the
sixties and seventies and not in Bs As). Of course we can say no.
When men outnumber women at milongas, I get turned down for dances often and
frequently I am told "because my feet hurt". So because women wear high
heels and her feet start to hurt when she dances a lot, when there's more
men than women, the problem gets compounded as the night go on. Then again,
perhaps, when a woman says no and tells me because her feet hurt, she simply
doesn't want to dance with me. Maybe the statement "my feet hurt" is sort
of similar to the statement "not tonight dear, I have a headache". :)
The ratio of men to women at the practicas and milongas that I've been to
vary. But the classes I've taken the last six months from local teachers
here in the Denver area have had overwhelming number of men compared to
women. Most of the classes I've have taken were taught my Tom and Cindy
Stermitz and Lisa Battan. Frequently there are three or four extra men in
these classes - I think typically something like 14 men to 10 women, but
there have also been many times where there are about 10 men and three
women. And one of the women was there to learn to lead.
Russell Bauer
Denver, CO
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:11:43 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Italian etiquette
Enrico wrote:
Dear Malena,
"I don't know where in Italy you go to dance, it looks to me more like
Sicily
than Northern Italy, and it can make a world of difference.
I dance in Northern Italy, and in the rest of Europe in addition to the
Americas,
and I did not find any difference in this respect. I don't know anything
about
Southern Italy, it used to be very different down there, but things have
changed
very much also there."
Malena is from Trentino, a few steps more to the north and you fall into
Austria.
She goes dancing to Milano, Turino and other areas in the north. I agree
with you that Malena's views are personal, other Italian ladies from the
same area might think differently.
She is a very good dancer as well.
Saluti, Sergio
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:33:14 -0700
From: Alan Hu <ajh @CS.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: women in waiting...
> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:31:50 -0600
> From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
[...]
> > Men never "sit and wait", women do.
>
> Not true. We do have a few quiet men, acceptable dancers,
> who sit on the sidelines and watch and wait.
>
> You are correct in that these guys are probably not
> waiting to be asked. But they are still sitting and
> waiting. For what, I don't know.
>
> Courage?
> A particular partner?
> Someone to come over and talk with them a bit
> and get to know them and overcome their shyness?
This message hit home for me. I recently got back from my trip to
Los Angeles. Thanks to all the Tango-L folks who gave me great suggestions!
Alas, I didn't have a car, and I only managed to talk my never-tangoed-before
friend into going out one night (Pasion, on a Tuesday night, interesting
lesson that was beneficial to my two tango newbie friends as well as to
me, and some very nice music and dancing -- I had a great time).
I generally spend a lot of time sitting around and waiting at milongas,
and I especially did a lot that night at Pasion. Why? Shyness,
especially at a new venue. I also enjoy listening to the music, watching
the dancers, soaking up the ambiance. Some songs I don't want to dance
to, or don't want to dance with certain people (e.g. a milonga with my
tango newbie friends). Sometimes I'll wait for a particular partner,
perhaps someone whose dancing I really enjoyed. Sometimes I'll really
want to dance a song, but not see anyone who looks as if she'd like to
be asked.
And that leads to this thread in general. I believe the question was
approximately, "What should a woman do to indicate that she wants to dance?"
I think the best way would be for her to ask the person she wants to dance
with! Simple enough. If that's not culturally permissable, how about
positioning herself so that she's easily approached and asked to dance?
At Pasion, I noticed a few women who were sitting out a lot, whom I would
have happily asked if I thought they wanted to dance with people. But
they were sitting behind massive tables, not making eye contact, not
looking out for potential partners, so I presumed they were waiting for
specific people. If someone wanted to be asked, sitting right by the floor,
or better yet, standing at the edge of the floor, makes it obvious you
want to dance.
--Alan Hu
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:25:23 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Trips to Bs.As.
Thanks to Steve for speaking so frankly. It certainly makes the post
interesting. A trip to Argentina is a big expense in money, effort and time
for North Americans. Deciding the cost/benefit ratio is only sensible.
Years ago I went to school in Mexico city, at the National University. My
experience of American women students, tourists, whatever was exactly as he
suggests (and this was a long time ago). I observed many many young women
having the "social" time of their lives. My take on it was they were either
very young and therefore away from home for the first time, ill equipped to
fend off (much less understand) the very attractive Mexicanos. OR they were
maybe a little older, not very attractive by American standards, and had
NEVER experienced the rush of excitement that comes from being pursued.
Both categories of women were very happy to fall into the arms of these
attentive men. And they made life very difficult for the rest of us. The
assumption that all American women were promiscuous was almost always
correct. Any time men suspected I was American (I'm Hispanic in origin, but
American by birth) the come on was very direct and persistent. I eventually
started wearing a "wedding ring" to school in an effort to make my life
bearable.
The only time I was able to enjoy Latin America without such attentions was
a trip to Nicaragua when I was 7 months pregnant. It was very amusing. In
a crowded room I could see men notice me, perk up, begin to swagger over to
make their pitch - until the crowd parted and they could see ALL of me.
They immediately turned away (mothers are madonnas). I decided right then
that if I made another trip, I would be packing a pillow!
I appreciate the open sharing of politically incorrect views, especially
when they are delivered without ad hominum attacks. Thank you very much.
Melinda
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:30:47 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Wondering about women.
I have watched weeks of messages about the problem
with women going to the milongas and wanting to dance.
The women go to the milongas and want "their $10 worth."
Or they just want to dance and are mad because there are
too many women, not enough men, and the women don't
get to dance. So we have spent weeks of messages
detailing all the regulations of how to get that dance,
and, by God, we'll hang those guys that don't subscribe
to the rule.
All of these messages are regarding milongas.
In all of these weeks of messages, I have not seen one
message from the women about going to a class or a
workshop.
I can say from experience that it is not nice to go to a
class and face 5 expert tango dancers, male, and be the
only woman there at the class. And I can say from
experience that it is not nice to go to a workshop with
Argentine dancers (visiting here in San Francisco) when
there are 15 men and 3 women. Because it is very
difficult to handle that kind of situation when you are a
woman.
I am not rich, but I don't go to a milonga expecting to get
"my $10 worth."
Deborah
B.A. Tango
End of TANGO-L Digest - 16 Jun 2000 to 17 Jun 2000 (#2000-165)
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