The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 15 Jun 2000
to 16 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 03:00:23 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 15 Jun 2000 to 16 Jun 2000 (#2000-164)
There are 14 messages totalling 590 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. single women vs. more men
2. Argentinean social mores
3. women in waiting... (4)
4. Women waiting... New question
5. Why men won't dance with certain women: lack of superconfident
6. Gardelianos
7. Women Sitting Alone, Etc.
8. in search of Rocco Tiberi
9. I'll try again.
10. Tango in China
11. NSOD8CBWOIDBS
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:55:21 PDT
From: Alexander Vistgof <vistgof @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: single women vs. more men
>Hi Sasha... I have one question for you. Say there is a young lady who
>comes
>with a partner (of any kind) and the guy doesn't want her to dance with
>anyone else because he might not be a dancer. But the young lady is a
>dancer
>and wants to dance with him and others men. When she then wants to dance
>with others... what do you think would happen then? Would the men ask her
>to
>dance?
HI Meri,
What I think from my relatively small experience, there will be less men
inviting that woman if they realize that her partner would not like it. Even
if all people around know each other. If I think that my invitation is
going to produce negative emotions WITHIN THE COUPLE, I would try to avoid
inviting that woman. Of course, it's a personal view, some men probably
behave differently.
I know one girl who says that when she comes with her non-dancing partner,
she gets way less dances despite the fact that in our small community we all
know each other and are generally very friendly to each other.
Should they not ask her to dance but have her ask the men to
>dance or do you feel she should not dance at all? I hope my question makes
>sense.
>
So, this girl with a non-dancing partner, either makes an arrangement that
he comes by the end of the milonga to pick her up, or goes to the table with
other girls whereas he sits somewhat far from her....
I try to avoid making generalisations, but obviously there are some women
who feel comfortable inviting men and there are those who would not invite
men themselves.
It's hardly possible to tell someone what she/he should or should not do.
People will listen to you and do as their hart desires anyway. I guess that
if you have less men at the milonga, there will be also some women
unsatisfied with the number of dances they get.
So, I would prefer to have more men attracted to tango, then the problem of
"women getting less dances" will be solved in a natural fashion.
Is there anyone who is doing smth. specific to attract more men to tango?
Cheers,
Sasha
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:09:01 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Argentinean social mores
Somebody sent me the following note:
"Sergio - I have to admit that the more I read and get to know about
Argentina, the less I want to visit. It seems so archaic and pass=E9 in i=
ts
customs. It's interesting that I have talked to 3 women who have been the=
re
for seminars of other tango events and in each of the cases their reactio=
n
was "I am not sure that I would return".
Let me be clear I have known many outstanding Argentines both in Texas an=
d
here in Italy where I live now. I respect them and like them and they are
among the most loyal of friends. However, the more and the more I read, i=
t
seems that the customs there are a bit uncomfortast
and partucularly friendly to outsiders."
Dear Mark,
Thank you for sharing your views with me.
Argentina is Argentina. It has its own personality and culture the same a=
s
most other places.
It is a country formed by people coming from many different areas of the
world, its culture is a result of the interaction of those people with th=
eir
new environment. An alchymy between gauchos and immigrants resulting in a
very contradictory person but charming, open, skeptic and melancholic. It=
is
a nation that produces all sort of feelings except indifference.
Buenos Aires has a powerful magnetism that is difficult to explain. The
initial aura of grandeur and prosperity has been decreasing in the last
decades due to economical problems; however its power to trap the visitor
and fascinate the native is always present, renovated in the beauty of it=
s
neighborhoods and the personality of its downtown area.
It moves with a rhythm that was born in its soul, the Tango.
The main characteristic is an attempt to preserve two social values that
are rapidly disappearing in many parts of the world, family and friendsh=
ip.
(This has been changing also).
As to your whishing to visit or not, it is a very personal matter. The on=
e
time visitors IMO are a small percentage. My experience with tourists is
that they have a tendency to come back year after year. Particularly wome=
n
and couples feel a need to experience this "archaic" way of life again a=
nd
again. Many single men I know do the same. Some of my friends in the USA
have been coming for five years in a row, they already made reservations =
for
next April to visit Buenos Aires and Mendoza.
Then you have the continuous flow of immigrants that come from all over t=
o
stay for good.(Mostly South America, Eastern Europe, Korea, Taiwan).
My experience is that the native Argentineans complain much more about th=
eir
country than most foreigners do.
I am sure that everything has a positive/negative duality. I grew up here
with these customs, they never bothered me at all.
But the main concept I would like you to have is that women, one way or
another, they have their subtle way, do as they please here and everywher=
e.
Am I wrong girls? :) :)
I wish you many good tangos.
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:23:38 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: women in waiting...
Eugenia wrote:
> How about asking a woman who is alone, waiting at the table, or standing
> by the wall TO DANCE? She came to a dance, there must be a reason why
> she is willing to spend her time and money on attending a tango dance!
Here in Colorado, we often have live music at our milongas.
There are a lot of people who come to listen to the music.
Sometimes, they are friends of band members; often, they
just saw the event listing in the newspaper, which happens
to be in the "Music" column, not the "Dance" column.
So we see a lot of new faces whenever a band is playing.
So we men have the problem of figuring out if a new face is
one of these or a visiting tanguera. The trouble is,
if the woman is a non-dancer, she may just optimistically say
"if you lead, I'll follow, I can follow anything".
If only that were true.
Dave
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:31:50 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: women in waiting...
Ah Mirella, are you ever coming back to Colorado,
at least for a visit?
You wrote:
> Men never "sit and wait", women do.
Not true. We do have a few quiet men, acceptable dancers,
who sit on the sidelines and watch and wait.
You are correct in that these guys are probably not
waiting to be asked. But they are still sitting and
waiting. For what, I don't know.
Courage?
A particular partner?
Someone to come over and talk with them a bit
and get to know them and overcome their shyness?
Dave Schmitz
Denver, Colorado
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:10:23 EDT
From: Frank Sasson <FRSASSON @AOL.COM>
Subject: Women waiting... New question
Dear List:
Some very good information has come out of the discussion, women waiting and
wanting to dance, and, I think I speak for all of the male tangueros, when I
say that if all of it is used by the ladies, the likelihood of them sitting
all night without dancing, will be greatly reduced.
I hope that his is not the end of the suggestions, and realizing that not all
tangueras are reading the Tango-L information, how can we let them know, that
we understand their plight and they should do all of what has been suggested?
Inquiring tangueros would like to know !
Frank Sasson
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:34:03 EDT
From: Mirella Massetti <MMirella @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: women in waiting...
a message dated 6/15/2000 1:32:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dschmitz @magellan.teq.stortek.com writes:
<< Ah Mirella, are you ever coming back to Colorado,
at least for a visit? >>
Enrico keeps telling me that we should. Colorado is in our minds and in our
hearts. I promise to give a serious consideration to a possible visit.
<< Not true. We do have a few quiet men, acceptable dancers,
who sit on the sidelines and watch and wait. You are correct in that these
guys are probably not waiting to be asked. >>
The fact that they are not waiting to be asked makes all the difference in
the world.
<<Courage?
A particular partner?
Someone to come over and talk with them a bit
and get to know them and overcome their shyness?>>
I guess we all share some of that, indipendently of our genre, and probably
we have to keep it in mind when attending a milonga in an unfamiliar place.
Mirella
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:18:34 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: women in waiting...
Original Message -----
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
> Not true. We do have a few quiet men, acceptable dancers,
> who sit on the sidelines and watch and wait.
>
> You are correct in that these guys are probably not
> waiting to be asked. But they are still sitting and
> waiting. For what, I don't know.
>
> Courage?
> A particular partner?
> Someone to come over and talk with them a bit
> and get to know them and overcome their shyness?
There is another reason to sit and watch and wait at the milongas. In Bs As
(and I guess anywhere else as well) it is very advisable to observe and
notice everything before jumping in the dance floor with the first person
one sees. As Dave already said, there are people who come to watch and not
to dance or just to keep somebody else company.
It is crucial to observe and notice carefully who dances with who and how
they dance. It is the sign of an inexperienced dancer to rush to the floor,
particularly at a strange milonga or one where there are a lot of strangers.
You want your first dance to be a good experience and to show that you can
dance. This is how one establishes credibility at milongas. If you rush to
the floor with an incompatible or inept partner, you hurt your chances (and
your partner's) for the rest of the evening. You also must learn how the
music is played and what you can expect. The music you dance to is as
important as the partner you choose.
Another important thing is (at least in Bs As) not to rush and start with a
lot of firuletes and sacadas (for the men) or high boleos or embellishments
(for the women). Please show respect for your partner and the rest of the
dancers. *Walk* your first tango with *any* new partner. Only the simplest
and best executed steps should be done. Choose your music carefully and
avoid difficult dances at first with a new partner. Even if you dance a
great milonga with traspie or can turn a vals with the best, your partner
might not have the ability or desire to do this. You find this out by
watching and observing.
Courage to the men, good luck to the ladies!
Great tangos to all,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:49:01 -0400
From: "Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Why men won't dance with certain women: lack of superconfident
There's been a lot of discussion on the above topic. Hoping I won't be
repetitive, IMHO, one reason men won't dance with certain women is
INTIMIDATION, the woman is too good for them. I know I felt that when I
started. If I wasn't stepping on my partner's feet, I was stepping on MY
feet. My jaw would hit the ground as I watched men lead women in parades,
step over, ganchos, everything I COULDN'T do. I felt I couldn't possibly
keep the woman's interest and it would be a bad experience. WRONG!! Women
told me they weren't interested in the flashy stuff because the men
didn't know how to lead it. Being thrown around the floor, being coerced
to execute certain figures because the man wants to show off is NOT a
good time for the woman.
I was mortified to dance with a respondent to this thread and hopefully
she knows who I am talking about. I don't want to embarrass her so I
won't mention her name, but will say she lives in Florida when not
travelling. This tanguera brings so much passion, grace, and beauty to
the dance my heart melts. She NEVER said a nasty word, never even looked
in my direction, but I was intimidated by her skill level and psyched
myself out.
After we danced a while, she was saddened to know I (not her) had put
this invisible barrier between us. Now, I can't wait to take her around
the floor. I regret all the dances I didn't have with her.
My advice to men is take that chance dancing with a woman you consider
beyond your skill level. Women appreciate courtesy and effort ABOVE
difficult figures. They want to be treated as a lady, not a broom to be
whisked across the floor.
(I wrote about this in greater detail in the *La Voz del Tango* magazine
last year.) Hopefully, the editor won't be mad at me.
Michael
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:57:53 +0200
From: Virginia Gift <vgift @ATTGLOBAL.NET>
Subject: Gardelianos
Dear List,
Does anyone know anything about the Gardelinos--fans of Gardel?
I have read that every Sunday some of them gather at Gardel's tomb,
leave flowers and play his songs.
--- How many people are generally there each Sunday.
--- Is it truly each Sunday and not just once a month?
--- Are the Garlelianos organized, as are American fan clubs? Do they
have officeres, regular meetings?
--- In what other activities do the Gardelianos engage?
--- Any idea of the number of Gardelianos? What is the (rough)
proportion of women to men who take part in Gardel-related aactivities?
Thanks very much for any information.
Virginia Gift
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:59:49 -0700
From: Linda Valentino <LindaValentino @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Women Sitting Alone, Etc.
Hola, Listeros:
I must be missing something here. It seems more than obvious to me that if a
couple comes to a milonga and the man dances with other women, then the
couple has made an agreement that they are both free to dance with others.
This is the United States in the year 2000. How many couples do you know
where the woman is so submissive that she will tolerate her
boyfriend/husband/partner dancing with all the other women, while she sits
obediently at the table, not allowed to dance with anyone but him? How many
women in the U.S. tango community would put up with this double standard?
With all due respect, I think that sometimes we take things a little too far
in dissecting all of the dos and don'ts in the tango culture. As I have said
before, one needs to use common sense, while applying that common sense to
the cultural traditions of the person you are dealing with. For example:
women should feel free to ask an American male friend for a dance if they
know that the man doesn't have a problem with this. If you're not sure about
a particular man's feelings about this, you might say to him upon the first
greeting of the evening, "I'd love to have a dance with you sometime this
evening." Now you've given him a very clear signal. If he asks you to dance
later, wonderful. If he doesn't, obviously he's not interested in you and
you shouldn't ask him. Ditto for the men. If you have asked a woman more
than once, and she has declined, she's probably not interested in dancing
with you, so don't ask her again. It is always wise to refrain from directly
asking an Argentinean man to dance, as we all know that their culture finds
this offensive. If you wish to ask an Argentinean woman who is with her
partner, first acknowledge the man and ask "Con permiso?" or "May I?" or "Do
you mind?" and then ask the woman. This shows that you respect their
cultural traditions. No one (man or woman) should interrupt a couple who are
obviously involved in a private, intimate-appearing conversation. Wait until
a break in the conversation. And (I hate to sound like a broken record
about this) DON'T ask visiting performers or teachers whose classes you
don't attend. The bottom line is USE COMMON SENSE when you go out to dance.
Many Happy Tangos,
Linda
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:53:34 -0700
From: Erin Sullivan <erins @THINK-2.COM>
Subject: in search of Rocco Tiberi
Hello All,
If anyone has information about a dancer/instructor named Rocco Tiberi, I
would greatly appreciate it if you let me know where I could contact him.
He taught a number of years ago in Dallas at a studio called Strictly
Ballroom and I believe he is now in Florida. My email address is
erins @think-2.com Thanks so much for your help!
Erin
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:32:56 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: I'll try again.
I'll try again. I guess nobody wants to see my posting.
But I'll just keep trying until somebody does...
The first quote:
"In my club (late forties and fifties), one side of the dance floor
was called "the capital," the other side was called "the provinces."
The girls from the provinces were on one side, the girls from
the capital were on the other. We, the milongueros, were in
the centre of the floor. We observed the following ritual:
the beginner -- for example myself -- had to dance with girl
number 1, then girl number 2, and so on. The girls from the
provinces were ranked from 1 to 50, the girls from the capital
were ranked from 50 to 100. The girls from the capital were
prettier; they all went accompanied by their mothers. The girls
from the provinces went by themselves (they were somehow
unprotected). But I had to dance with the number 1 first.
The milongueros watched you and would either approve of
you or not. This was an unwritten law. This was the university:
I got my Ph.D. as milonguero."
-- Juan Carlos Copes
The second quote:
"To me, el baile represents life, love, death, hate. It makes my
hair stand on end. I am a tango dancer who was brought up
with the tango. It was the time when there were all the clubes
de barrio. I used to go on both Saturdays and Sundays.
On Thursdays and Fridays we used to go every single time
a baile was held -- not in the Centre, always in the clubs in
the barrios. A decent girl went to the club just to dance, and
she would dance with a ronoso (meanie) and with a groncho
(swarthy) and with a mummy's boy -- mummy's boys were
hardly ever good dancers. We would dance with everybody
-- with negros too. We were swept away by our love for
the tango, we just loved to go dancing. We didn't go out
looking for sex, none of the girls in our barra (gang) did; we
didn't care what the man looked like. It was a nice, beautiful,
pure group of girls, interested only in the tango."
-- Maria Nieves
Any comments?
Deborah
B.A. Tango
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:23:33 -0700
From: Al & Barbara <batango @SLIP.NET>
Subject: Tango in China
Al and I have just returned from Shanghai and Beijing, where (surprise!) we did
not find any Argentine tango. Of course we were in Shanghai only a week and in
Beijing for 4 days. There is a club in Shanghai called Tropicana which is
reputedly owned by an Argentinian and DID have tango lessons for a while, taught
by a couple from Argentina. Since they left (fairly recently I think) the club
plays only salsa (live band). I called several times, and spoke with a native
speaker of Spanish, who repeated that they did not play tango, only salsa.
However if someone else is going to Shanghai, you might call the Tropicana and
ask. I don't have the number, but perhaps a concierge could help, it is listed
in English language magazines about activities in Shanghai.
In many (most? all?) parks in both cities one can almost always find, 6-9 am
approximately, among the tai chi varieties and aerobics, etc, a group doing
ballroom dance. Most of the dances are identifiable, although the music isn't
always. Lots of west coast swing to Chinese music. They do occasionally play a
type of American tango, and we were able to dance to it, to everyone's delight.
I danced with a number of men (tango, waltz, various unknown rhythms) and found
a number of excellent leaders. Most of the participants in the parks are
middle-aged or older. We were told that the older people in China are in much
better physical shape than the younger ones, who are too busy with their
careers.
We did love Shanghai! It is one of the world's great cities, right up there
with Paris, Buenos Aires, San Francisco (fill in your own favorites) for beauty,
charm, friendliness, great food (especially on the street), and a very up-beat
feeling. Imagine many European style buildings 1860-1937, banks, hotels,
mansions, apartments etc. with neighborhoods of black-tile-roofed red brick low
Chinese dwellings in between and MANY space-age ultra tall skyscrapers (think
Batman, the movie)--fascinating!
Abrazos, Barbara & Al Garvey
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Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 12:01 AM
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 14 Jun 2000 to 15 Jun 2000 (#2000-163)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:39:17 -0700
From: Al & Barbara <batango @SLIP.NET>
Subject: NSOD8CBWOIDBS
Sorry I'm late with my 2 cents on the Not So Dreaded 8 Count Basic WithOut
Initial Dreaded Back Step. We were in China, see previous message. I don't
think this is a repeat of the many other posts, and I'll try to be brief.
During one of the previous endless discussions on the Tango-l, I reviewed
some videotapes taken in milongas in Buenos Aires 1987-1998, and on analysis
found that at least 50% of the leaders began each dance with a version of the
8-count basic, but always on step 2, NEVER stepping back first. They did
frequently step back right after a close or when doing a basic in the middle of
the dance. On the other hand, they seldom do the 6-8 close, which IMHO is the
real bugaboo of the D8CB.
We teach the 8-count basic beginning with side step 2, and emphasize the
following reasons: We explain that there is controversy surrounding this
combination, and that we teach it because is a useful tool for the following
reasons.
1. The Basic Step is an excellent way to learn a number of indispensable
tango techniques including the brush-through, the cross, foot position, etc. Not
to mention lead/follow.
2. Improvisation can only begin when the leader understands the logic or
engineering of tango. By interspersing other movements (e.g.forward, back ochos,
paradas) into the Basic, we introduce them to this concept. We explain that at
each movement in the Basic there are endless opportunities to insert new ideas.
3. We teach the tango close almost reluctantly, warning them that a good
milonguero uses this very sparingly, even though most teachers (Argentine, see
the Zotto videos) tack this onto every combination they teach. The 6,7,8 is
however a good way to teach the concept of the swivel adjustment without which
they will go out of the line of dance (we use a slight counterclockwise swivel,
for the leader, between 6 and 7 and a slight clockwise swivel between 8 and 1 to
control line of dance.) The fact that adjustments are needed to keep the Basic
in line of dance becomes an essential lesson.
This does not address the issues of Close Embrace, although Eduardo
Arquimbau teaches a syncopated Basic with his Club Style.
We haven't found our students unable to learn the Basic or to understand
our caveats, although it of course takes time to actually be able to improvise.
If any followers have trouble doing an 8CB, or not doing it, they are
either not following or their leaders are not leading. And any teacher who
teaches any combination as something to be done from start to finish without
interruption is not teaching Argentine tango. In intermediate classes we insist
that students find different ways into and out of the combination being learned,
that they try to interrupt it in the middle and finish differently, etc.
Thanks for listening (reading). I was compelled to contribute this after
wading through about a dozen D8CBWDBS threads over the last four years.
See you at Tango By The Bay, Barbara
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