The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 13 Jun 2000
to 14 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 03:00:26 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 13 Jun 2000 to 14 Jun 2000 (#2000-162)
There are 11 messages totalling 467 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Women wanting to dance & Women more experienced.
2. Women waiting and wanting to dance (8)
3. El Tangauta website
4. Two quotes for wallflowers.
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:00:19 +1000
From: A & AB Athanassiou <athanass @OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Women wanting to dance & Women more experienced.
>
>Jon wrote.
>
> >You raise an interesting point. Personally, as a male dancer, I am more
> >insecure about dancing with a woman above my skill level.
>
>Absolutely correct. But consider this from the woman's perspective, she
>may only get to dance with one or two dancers who are confident with her
>and thus will not be able to enjoy the more social side of Tango. If I
>dance with a woman whom I consider to be at a higher level, then I pace
>myself at what I can do well - and no more. If she is uncomfortable with
>this she will soon let you know and thank you for the one dance you had
>together. I remember at a workshop last year an excellent Tango instructor
>commented that he would rather see simple steps done really beautifully,
>than fancy stuff done badly.
>
>
> >I am far more comfortable dancing with women of my skill level or a little
> >below.
>
>Aren't we all - but then how do we grow.?
>
>
> >And dancing with beginners becomes an exercise in control and discipline
> >which,
> >I think, makes me a better dancer.
>
>I think it does too. And think of the investment in their future as well.
>
>Arthur
>Brisbane
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:35:34 -0400
From: Nitin Kibe <nkibe @WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Assuming that the woman is interested (eye contact, etc etc), is it not more
polite to approach her as part of a couple and ask the man for permission to
dance with her rather than wait for the man to be absent or, worse, not
acknowledge his presence at all?
Good wishes.
Nitin Kibe
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:34:08 -0700
From: David Feldman <feldman @MATH.UVIC.CA>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Once upon a time society considered women a man's property. This was
acknowledged in law and in social mores. Asking the man's permission to
ask his partner to dance seems pretty reminiscent of this way of thinking.
It might make the man feel like you had payed him due respect, but would
the woman feel that way I wonder?
But I agree that waiting for him to go away or simply ignoring him are
both a bit "sneaky" or dishonest. What's a fella to do? I don't know,
but here's one thing that comes to my mind. How about addressing the two
of them as a couple. Greet them both and say something like ... "you guys
look like you're busy with each other, but when you're not could I ask
you (addressing the woman) for a dance?". What do you think? Like I say
I'm not really sure how to handle the situation, this is just an idea.
David Feldman
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:05:20 -0700
From: diane m tober <DTOBER @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
In regard to the current discussion re: women waiting to dance: I think--at
least in the United STates--that it is perfectly acceptable to approach a
woman if she is sitting alone, regardless of whether or not she comes in
with a partner. Often, when couples go out together the man might go off to
dance with other women, and the woman sits around waiting for someone to
approach her. This has happened to me numerous times with my partner, where
I resented the fact that he was dancing almost every dance while I spent
time sitting (especially considering that there are usually more women than
men at Milongas). In this country (US) there is a solution to this--get up
and ask men to dance. It works almost every time.
However, in regard to David's suggestion that one approach the couple,
interrupt their conversation, and express his desire to dance with the
woman: I don't think this is a good tactic. If a couple is
sitting/standing together and talking, they could be about to go on the
dance floor, or they could just be enjoying each others' company at the
moment. There have been numerous times when my partner and I have been
interrupted by others, asking one or the other of us to dance. Sometimes, if
a woman is asking my partner to dance, they may turn to me and ask me first
which is thoughtful, but awkward as their is only one proper response--"of
course not, go right ahead"--regardless of whether or not he and I were
getting ready to dance. Usually, when he and I are sitting/standing and
talking we are waiting for a good song to dance together, and end up feeling
obligated to dance with the person who just interrupted us. This can be an
awkward situation.
My suggestion--for men and women--is this: you certainly want the person's
partner to feel that you acknowledge and respect their relationship. You
can do this by simply greeting them when you see them at a milonga, but not
when they seemed engaged in a private conversation or like they might be
waiting to take to the dance floor. When the partner you wish to dance with
is alone, approach them and ask them to dance. I try to make it a rule for
myself never to interrupt others when they are talking. If their is a man I
want to dance with who is chatting with others, I try to make eye contact w/
a slight raised eyebrow, or head nod toward the dance floor. This has
always been well-received because it is minimally intrusive, and the man may
then excuse himself if he wishes to dance or may ignore me if he really
wants to continue his conversation (which hasn't happened yet).
Most importantly, if a person does decline a dance because they are waiting
for the right song to dance with their partner, or even if they are dancing
with you and they excuse themselves because a particular song/composer comes
on that they like to dance with their regular partner, try not to be
offended. Tango is a dance that inspires emotions and intimacy, some nights
the couple might want to experience that together.
Diana
>Once upon a time society considered women a man's property. This was
>acknowledged in law and in social mores. Asking the man's permission to
>ask his partner to dance seems pretty reminiscent of this way of thinking.
>It might make the man feel like you had payed him due respect, but would
>the woman feel that way I wonder?
>
>But I agree that waiting for him to go away or simply ignoring him are
>both a bit "sneaky" or dishonest. What's a fella to do? I don't know,
>but here's one thing that comes to my mind. How about addressing the two
>of them as a couple. Greet them both and say something like ... "you guys
>look like you're busy with each other, but when you're not could I ask
>you (addressing the woman) for a dance?". What do you think? Like I say
>I'm not really sure how to handle the situation, this is just an idea.
>
>David Feldman
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:03:58 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: El Tangauta website
The correct url is www.eltangauta.com The site is
under construction and will be running in July.
It will be available in English, Italian, French, German,
Dutch, Japanese, Spanish and a couple other languages
so that the international community of tango will be able
to read the articles and information for tango in Buenos
Aires on this site. El Tangauta is a monthly magazine
available in Buenos Aires.
Janis Kenyon
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:47:18 EDT
From: Frank Sasson <FRSASSON @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
In a message dated 06/13/2000 9:36:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
feldman @MATH.UVIC.CA writes:
<< Greet them both and say something like ... "you guys
look like you're busy with each other, but when you're not could I ask
you (addressing the woman) for a dance?". What do you think? Like I say
I'm not really sure how to handle the situation, this is just an idea.
David Feldman
Hi David:
A very positive idea, what happens if the lady is already alone..... Do you
approach her?
How can she let you know that it is OK to ask her to dance, even though she
came in with her boyfriend?
She has already made "Eye Contact" with you, but you still observe protocol,
because you don't know what their relationship is and if they have agreed to
dance with others.... Now what?
Abrazos Tangueros
Frank Sasson
>>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:39:50 PDT
From: MeriBeth Clark <melepeka @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Diane... I defentely agree with what you had to say. For myself as another
alternative besides making eye contact and moving to the floor if it is
acknowledge, is if asking someone to dance in person, I have found as a
women asking a man who has a dance partner with him or is talking to a lady
and having a deep conversation, to wait for a moment or a later time during
the night when their is a break in their conversation and they are looking
around to dance with someone else. Then I would approach the couple and
acknowledge both of them. I them will turn to the ask the man..... "Sometime
tonight I would be delighted if I could get a dance, but it doesn't have to
be right away." To me I am then acknowledging that I understand that they
might not be finished dancing just waiting for another song to come on. But
I make sure to never intrupt the conversation. This way both the couple is
happy and I will get the dance sometime that night. Using this method of
approach I have never felt like I have not upset anyone and I always get my
dance sometime that night. Most of the time I will get it right away, if the
couple is finished dancing.
Meri
>From: diane m tober <DTOBER @PRODIGY.NET>
>Reply-To: diane m tober <DTOBER @PRODIGY.NET>
>To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:05:20 -0700
>
>In regard to the current discussion re: women waiting to dance: I
>think--at
>least in the United STates--that it is perfectly acceptable to approach a
>woman if she is sitting alone, regardless of whether or not she comes in
>with a partner. Often, when couples go out together the man might go off
>to
>dance with other women, and the woman sits around waiting for someone to
>approach her. This has happened to me numerous times with my partner,
>where
>I resented the fact that he was dancing almost every dance while I spent
>time sitting (especially considering that there are usually more women than
>men at Milongas). In this country (US) there is a solution to this--get up
>and ask men to dance. It works almost every time.
>
>However, in regard to David's suggestion that one approach the couple,
>interrupt their conversation, and express his desire to dance with the
>woman: I don't think this is a good tactic. If a couple is
>sitting/standing together and talking, they could be about to go on the
>dance floor, or they could just be enjoying each others' company at the
>moment. There have been numerous times when my partner and I have been
>interrupted by others, asking one or the other of us to dance. Sometimes,
>if
>a woman is asking my partner to dance, they may turn to me and ask me first
>which is thoughtful, but awkward as their is only one proper response--"of
>course not, go right ahead"--regardless of whether or not he and I were
>getting ready to dance. Usually, when he and I are sitting/standing and
>talking we are waiting for a good song to dance together, and end up
>feeling
>obligated to dance with the person who just interrupted us. This can be an
>awkward situation.
>
>My suggestion--for men and women--is this: you certainly want the person's
>partner to feel that you acknowledge and respect their relationship. You
>can do this by simply greeting them when you see them at a milonga, but not
>when they seemed engaged in a private conversation or like they might be
>waiting to take to the dance floor. When the partner you wish to dance
>with
>is alone, approach them and ask them to dance. I try to make it a rule for
>myself never to interrupt others when they are talking. If their is a man
>I
>want to dance with who is chatting with others, I try to make eye contact
>w/
>a slight raised eyebrow, or head nod toward the dance floor. This has
>always been well-received because it is minimally intrusive, and the man
>may
>then excuse himself if he wishes to dance or may ignore me if he really
>wants to continue his conversation (which hasn't happened yet).
>
>Most importantly, if a person does decline a dance because they are waiting
>for the right song to dance with their partner, or even if they are dancing
>with you and they excuse themselves because a particular song/composer
>comes
>on that they like to dance with their regular partner, try not to be
>offended. Tango is a dance that inspires emotions and intimacy, some
>nights
>the couple might want to experience that together.
>
>Diana
>
>
>
>
> >Once upon a time society considered women a man's property. This was
> >acknowledged in law and in social mores. Asking the man's permission to
> >ask his partner to dance seems pretty reminiscent of this way of
>thinking.
> >It might make the man feel like you had payed him due respect, but would
> >the woman feel that way I wonder?
> >
> >But I agree that waiting for him to go away or simply ignoring him are
> >both a bit "sneaky" or dishonest. What's a fella to do? I don't know,
> >but here's one thing that comes to my mind. How about addressing the two
> >of them as a couple. Greet them both and say something like ... "you
>guys
> >look like you're busy with each other, but when you're not could I ask
> >you (addressing the woman) for a dance?". What do you think? Like I say
> >I'm not really sure how to handle the situation, this is just an idea.
> >
> >David Feldman
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:30:48 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Two quotes for wallflowers.
The first quote:
"In my club (late forties and fifties), one side of the dance floor
was called "the capital," the other side was called "the provinces."
The girls from the provinces were on one side, the girls from
the capital were on the other. We, the milongueros, were in
the centre of the floor. We observed the following ritual:
the beginner -- for example myself -- had to dance with girl
number 1, then girl number 2, and so on. The girls from the
provinces were ranked from 1 to 50, the girls from the capital
were ranked from 50 to 100. The girls from the capital were
prettier; they all went accompanied by their mothers. The girls
from the provinces went by themselves (they were somehow
unprotected). But I had to dance with the number 1 first.
The milongueros watched you and would either approve of
you or not. This was an unwritten law. This was the university:
I got my Ph.D. as milonguero."
-- Juan Carlos Copes
The second quote:
"To me, el baile represents life, love, death, hate. It makes my
hair stand on end. I am a tango dancer who was brought up
with the tango. It was the time when there were all the clubes
de barrio. I used to go on both Saturdays and Sundays.
On Thursdays and Fridays we used to go every single time
a baile was held -- not in the Centre, always in the clubs in
the barrios. A decent girl went to the club just to dance, and
she would dance with a ronoso (meanie) and with a groncho
(swarthy) and with a mummy's boy -- mummy's boys were
hardly ever good dancers. We would dance with everybody
-- with negros too. We were swept away by our love for
the tango, we just loved to go dancing. We didn't go out
looking for sex, none of the girls in our barra (gang) did; we
didn't care what the man looked like. It was a nice, beautiful,
pure group of girls, interested only in the tango."
-- Maria Nieves
Any comments?
Deborah
B.A. Tango
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:41:57 EDT
From: Frank Sasson <FRSASSON @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
In a message dated 06/13/2000 8:54:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
nkibe @WORLDBANK.ORG writes:
<< Assuming that the woman is interested (eye contact, etc etc), is it not
more
polite to approach her as part of a couple and ask the man for permission to
dance with her rather than wait for the man to be absent or, worse, not
acknowledge his presence at all?
Good wishes.
Nitin Kibe >>
Dear Nitin:
Absolutely, but it has to do more with the woman sitting alone, after she has
sent her boyfriend to dance with other women..... She is making "eye contact"
but the men are not asking her because they are shy, or they are observing
protocol.
Trying to make this a very positive discussion so we can improve and come out
with a possible solution
Abrazos Tangueros
Frank
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:47:06 +0300
From: Hayri Erenli <mhayrie @ESCORTNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Congradulations to Melinda for putting a complicated matter
in such clear and crisp words. Even, though I am not a dancer,
I fully agree with her ...
Hayri
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:37:54 EDT
From: Frank Sasson <FRSASSON @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Hi Meri:
Your suggestion is valid and has lots of merit.
Since you obviously are well versed in the protocol, imagine having arrived
at a strange milonga, with a male partner, and without knowing anybody, you
send your male partner to dance with other ladies.
How can you, in a very subtle way, indicate to the males at the milonga,
(fewer than the women) that you are available to dance with, even though you
entered the milonga with a partner or boyfriend?
That is the question asked of me, can you give a suggestion?
Abrazos tangueros
Frank Sasson
End of TANGO-L Digest - 13 Jun 2000 to 14 Jun 2000 (#2000-162)
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