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Digest from 2 Jun 2000 to 3 Jun 2000





Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango          <TANGO-L  @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date:     Sat, 3 Jun 2000 03:00:44 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango          <TANGO-L  @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject:  TANGO-L Digest - 2 Jun 2000 to 3 Jun 2000 (#2000-151)

There are 7 messages totalling 653 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology (2) 2. TANGO ESCAPE IN IDYLLWILD, CA JUNE 16-18 3. 8CBw/DBS 4. [Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology] 5. Tango and philosophy 6. Nothing, really.


Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:02:29 -0400 From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET> Subject: Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology I certainly want to congratulate Larry Carrol, Steven Brown, Gavin dixon and others for their brilliant contributions to unveil the mathematical world of Argentine Tango. I am sure that we are just touching the surface of this most interesting aspect of tango and its metaphysical and theological implications. Let's consider for a moment the tangos Uno (one) and Tres amigos (Three friends). A mere mathematical analysis will unveil that we are dealing with the absolute unity multiplied by three; but there is more... From the theological point of view it is easy to see that there is a clear reference to God, only one God, ruler of the universe and the mystery of the Holy Trinity. Notice that we are presented only with indivisible, primary numbers, which points to the truth of God's unification. Then we have the tango Cuatro compases (Four beats), Dos almas (Two souls) and again Tres amigos (three friends). The numbers 4, 2 and 3 in that particular order are clear reference to man's ambulation throughout his entire life. Crawling in 4 legs as a baby, walking on 2 as an adult and finally on 3 (cane) during his advanced age. Some people might argue that these days the cane has been replaced by a walker; precisely, this is the reason in recent tandas the sequence has been Cuatro compases, Dos Almas, Tres Amigos and then again Cuatro compases. A clear reference to the walker in the nursing home. La ultima copa. (The last drink)- Reference to on which turn the dog lies down. Obviously on the last one. El once (eleven) an interesting indivisible number. But 11*3=33. A very important number from the theological point of view, you all will agree. There are many, many more, such as 9 de julio, Cuidado con los 50 (Careful with the 50ies.) Milongueando en el 40, Pedacito de cielo (Sky's little piece), Ya estamos iguales ( We are even now), etc. but I do not want to bore you with all this.


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:47:50 EDT From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM> Subject: Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology It is interesting to see how arbitrary numbers are given special meanings, ie that 3 being a clear reference to god (not any god but the one that rules the universe) Taking Sergio's e-mail: Now that religion monopolized the numbers 1,2,3,4,9,11, 33, 40, 50 and even numbers, (and little numbers): that is one can not use these numbers without referring to a god or some other biblical significance, we may have to use some other abstractions to count. Please!!! What does tango have to do with any of this ??? Sergio wrote: >> .. I am sure that we are just touching the surface of this most interesting aspect of tango and its metaphysical and theological implications. Let's consider for a moment the tangos Uno (one) and Tres amigos (Three friends). A mere mathematical analysis will unveil that we are dealing with the absolute unity multiplied by three; but there is more... From the theological point of view it is easy to see that there is a clear reference to God, only one God, ruler of the universe and the mystery of the Holy Trinity. Notice that we are presented only with indivisible, primary numbers, which points to the truth of God's unification. Then we have the tango Cuatro compases (Four beats), Dos almas (Two souls) and again Tres amigos (three friends). The numbers 4, 2 and 3 in that particular order are clear reference to man's ambulation throughout his entire life. Crawling in 4 legs as a baby, walking on 2 as an adult and finally on 3 (cane) during his advanced age. Some people might argue that these days the cane has been replaced by a walker; precisely, this is the reason in recent tandas the sequence has been Cuatro compases, Dos Almas, Tres Amigos and then again Cuatro compases. A clear reference to the walker in the nursing home. La ultima copa. (The last drink)- Reference to on which turn the dog lies down. Obviously on the last one. El once (eleven) an interesting indivisible number. But 11*3=33. A very important number from the theological point of view, you all will agree. There are many, many more, such as 9 de julio, Cuidado con los 50 (Careful with the 50ies.) Milongueando en el 40, Pedacito de cielo (Sky's little piece), Ya estamos iguales ( We are even now), etc. but I do not want to bore you with all this.


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:57:47 EDT From: Daniela Arcuri <DATango @AOL.COM> Subject: TANGO ESCAPE IN IDYLLWILD, CA JUNE 16-18 Tango Escape in Idyllwild June 16, 17 and 18, 2000 Join us for a full weekend of tango in the beautiful San Jacinto mountain=20 escape of Idyllwild. Tango Classes for All Levels! Tango Music lecture for dancers! Tango Movie!= =20 Milongas! Contest!=20 PLUS a BIG PARTY on SATURDAY NIGHT- Dinner-Show and Milonga with music by=20 Tango Tres and more!!! =20 Experience the sensuality of the Tango as never before. Feel the passion of=20 world renowned Tango Masters, DANIELA ARCHER & ARMANDO ORZUZA. Their master= y=20 of the world's most passionate dance, the Tango, has gained them top=20 notoriety in the world today. They are the most sought after performers and= =20 choreographers of major productions, movies, television shows, commercials=20 and the Broadway stage today. They have gained international recognition fo= r=20 their performances as well as workshops in more than 150 major cities around= =20 the world. Daniela and Armando are currently residents of Los Angeles where= =20 they have regular classes and host a weekly tango night. TANGO TRES, directed by Pepe Motta A fantastic tango trio, consisting of=20 Pepe Motta on piano, Coco Trivisonno, member of the Forever Tango Orchestra=20 on bandoneon and Pablo Motta on bass. Internationally recognized in the tang= o=20 world. Don't miss this chance to enjoy a performance and then dance to thei= r=20 musical magic! THE PROGRAM=85 FRIDAY After registering at your hotel, begin the weekend at La Chateaux Lenchantin= =20 by checking in with us and unwind after your drive and forget the work week=20= =20 with "empanadas y vino=85" Followed by a special viewing of a tango movie at= 9=20 PM. And of course, let's dance to some of Armando's favorite tangos. SATURDAY Late Check In 10 AM Tango for Everyone - All Levels 11:30 AM Tango for Fanatics - Int./Adv. 1-4:30 PM Free time to relax, have lunch and enjoy Idyllwild. 4:30 PM Master Class - All Levels (All classes are 1 1/2 hours.) 8 PM Dinner served at La Chateaux Lenchantin =20 Perfomances by: Camerata Tango: Mrs. Lenchantin on piano with string quartet, and introducin= g=20 the beautiful Bianca Sapetto, aerialist/dancer from Cirque du Soleil. =20= =20 =20 Daniela & Armando: They will perform with Camerata Tango. Followed by a=20 wonderful performance with Tango Tres, showing different styles and=20 interpretations of the tango. Tango Tres: Pepe Motta on piano, Coco Trivisonno on bandoneon, and Pablo=20 Motta on bass. Enjoy the rest of the night as you dance to these talented and passionate=20 musicians and more of Armando's favorites. Try out your new moves while=20 Daniela & Armando select winners from each level ... surprise prizes! SUNDAY Enjoy breakfast in your room or in town and check out of hotels. 10:30 AM Tango Music Lecture for Dancers: Presented by Pepe Motta. Enjoy a=20 tour through the history and diversity of tango music with a master pianist. Classes 2-3:30 PM Tango for Everyone Continued- All Levels=20 3:30-5 PM Master Class Continued - All Levels CLASS DESCRIPTIONS Tango for Everybody - Dig deeper into the tango that you know. A fun and=20 challenging class for all levels. =20 Tango for Fanatics - This is for the Tango lovers who can't get enough! A=20 taste of rare and hard to find dances and techniques, such as "Canyenge" and= =20 "BioTango." Masters Class - Learn subtle techniques and get individual notes that will=20 refine your dance. Focus on how to dance to different orchestras and=20 exercises to elevate awareness of your relationship to your partner's body. LA CHATEAUX LENCHANTIN... Similar in style to the "old world" Parisian=20 Salons of Gertrude Stein, the former Tirol Restaurant is nestled 6,000 ft. i= n=20 the serene San Jacinto Mountains. With floor to ceiling windows allowing a=20 270 degree view, this elegant mansion has drawn the rich and famous through=20 its doors, including Gina Cerminara, Alan Watts, Olivia de Haviland and=20 Marlon Brando. =20 Visit www.greencafe.com/mansion LODGING... Idyllwild has many wonderful little hotels and lovely Bed &=20 Breakfasts to choose from. Accommodations in Idyllwild have a two-night=20 minimum - be sure to reserve your rooms early. =20 Five minutes from La Chateaux=85 Silver Pines Lodge and Creekside Cabins =20 (909) 659-4335 Atipahato Lodge =20 (888) 400-0071 www.atipahato.com Strawberry Creek Inn=20 (800) 262-8969 www.stawberrycreekinn.com The Cedar Street Inn=20 (909) 659-4789 www.idyllwild.com/cedar.htm Creekstone Inn Bed & Breakfast=20 (800) 409-2127 ...Or contact the Idyllwild Chamber of Commerce for more information. =20 (909) 659-3259 www.idyllwild.org/ DIRECTIONS=85=20 From Los Angeles and Vicinity 10 East towards Banning. Exit 8th Street - marked "Hwy. 243, Idyllwild". Turn Right go one block turn left at Lincoln. Go one block to San Gorgonio Ave. (Hwy. 243)=20 Turn right and travel approx. 25 miles to Idyllwold From San Diego 15/215 North to State Road 74 at Romoland. 74 East through Hemet. Left onto Hwy. 243 at Mountain Center to Idyllwild From Orange County 91 Fwy. towards Riverside Exit State Road 60 East towards Palm Springs/Indio Follow directions for travel from LA La Chateaux Lenchantin =20 53300 Overlook Drive, Idyllwild (Off Hwy. 243) (909) 659-2255 Sponsors Kawai America =20 Maple Leaf Merrill Lynch SIGN UP Please mail sign up information (below), along with your payment, to:=20 Strictly Tango Productions, Inc. 3940 Laurel Canyon Blvd., Suite 525 Studio City CA, 91604 Or send your registration info to STProductions @aol.com *Make checks to Strictly Tango Productions, Inc. SIGN UP INFORMATION (Include the number of persons for each package and send the total price.) 1.) Full Package - includes all three days, Classes, Dinner, Show and Milong= a=20 $190 per person 2.) Dinner, Show and Milonga (does not include Friday or any classes) $50=20 per person Pay by: Check, Money Order, Visa, Mastercard, American Express Include Credit Card # and Expiration Date Include your contact information: 1.) Full Name, 2.) Address, 3.) Phone Numbers and 4.)how long you have been=20 dancing. CONTACT: Letitia Rogers or Daniela & Armando with any questions or for copie= s=20 of brochure. (818) 487-8516 E-mail: STProductions @aol.com SEE YOU THERE!


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:35:50 -0600 From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET> Subject: Re: 8CBw/DBS >Hello list, > >Well, I have to admit, I have been learning some new things these past >few days regarding Tango & American (USA) attitudes. I was totally >unaware of the expressions: "dreaded 8-count basic", "dreaded back step", >''dreaded lean", & now I find that ''original sin'' is ingrained in all >of us from the tango instruction by Argentine teachers. Can the >Inquisition be far behind? I`ll be ready for them this time! >Seriously though, I feel that there are no "dreaded" >steps/patterns/technique in Tango or any other social dance, only >"dreaded" dancers. All social dances including Tango, in general consist >of three basic steps: forward, side, & back. Most social dances have a >line of dance or a flow of dance. The good instructors teach the >individual student, especially the leader, how to perform each step to >the music, around the dance floor maintaining the basic flow/line, >relating to his/her partner (lead/follow), without interfering with the >other dancers. One tall order. I like a real discussion! This one has consequences in the US because most communities are still small, inexperienced and growing. They are isolated one from another and from Buenos Aires. We have all these seed crystals where the vision, style and habits of the original, core group and the original teachers will propagate into the future as they grow. In the larger, established communities you can easily see the consequences of the initial teaching. Do you want your community to be inspired by the elegant salon tango of Nito & Elba Garcia, the flowing improvised tango of Gustavo Naveira, the stage/fantasy tango of Forever Tango or the very close and rhythmic style of Cacho Dante? In 5 years do you want the dancing in your community to look like Buenos Aires? How do you get from here to there? Mark identifies some important issues. I'm sure we agree on the value of the following: * Learning tango requires effective teaching of good skills at lead-follow, improvisation, rhythm, musicality, navigation and authenticity. There is more to it than that. To apply the dreaded binary thinking, Tango has an internal/emotional as well as an external/intellectual aspect. For the follower tango is almost completely internal. True, the leader has to worry about the external, but the "real" tango for him is also internal. I don't see a benefit in using a particular pattern of 8 slow steps (with DiSarli stuck on repeat!) for achieving any of those things, not to mention the more important aspects of tango: internal/emotional, heart & soul & passion. So my main complaint about 8CBw/DBS is that it is an external, analytical structure taught as a choreography to beginning men and women. Athough it has some value for constructing certain kinds of figures, it should be supplanted by something, that would better enable students to discover the internal aspects of tango. In fact, because it is taught as a choreography, the dreaded pattern takes us on a path AWAY from discovering the "real", internal stuff of tango. It attracts and rewards analytical personalities, but it is boring for women and for guys who value the heart (rather than head) aspects of tango. Secondly, it instills a framework that doesn't lend itself very well to authentic tango dancing, ESPECIALLY outside of Argentina where students have the every opportunity and encouragement to become habituated to it. We don't have very many good examples of social tango on our dance floors to show that the 8CBw/DBS is NOT tango. * The open "salon" tango built out of the 8CB w/DBS is very similar to fantasy/stage tango most of the travelling Master teachers are famous for. * It is rather different from the open-embrace, social tango they actually do in many salons in Argentina. * It is almost completely different from the close-embrace tango built out of smaller, rhythmic elements (also done in many salons in Argentina), as taught by Susana Miller, Florencia Taccetti, Cacho Dante, Julio Mendez, Brigitta Winkler, Eric Jorrisen, and others. >If a leader & or follower has problems with improvisation or is >completely locked into this pattern, it is, as Stephen Brown points out, >the fault of the student and/or teacher; not the pattern. To state that a >follower gets absolutely nothing from learning the "salida basica" is >absolute nonsense. If tango is viewed as a choreography, then, yes the woman can learn how to do a choreography based on the 8CBw/DBS and its variations. However, if tango is an improvised, lead-follow dance, then women receive essentially zero benefit from learning ANY pattern, in particular from the 8CBw/DBS which habituates them to certain movements. Aside from the romantic or social opportunities of a beginner class, women would advance in their tango much faster by studying African or modern dance. Oh yes, they need to learn the tango connection, following the cross, ochos and how to walk nicely. At that point she can learn intuitively from the better dancers in the community, assuming they don't program her into the 8CB w/ Dreaded Forward Step. I have seen many, many examples of leaders locked into their 8CBw/DBS pattern. Most guys build their dance out of what they learned the first month or so. It would be more authentic and better for their partners, the dance floors and the people around them if this initial conception of Tango were NOT 8 slow steps in a specific pattern. Tom Stermitz stermitz @ragtime.org http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime http://www.tango.org/dance


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:19:05 -0700 From: Larry Duke <auto_d20 @YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: [Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology] Dear Tango Friends, Because I saw what you [Larry de LA, Steve de Texas, Tom de Colorado, and Sergio de Buenos Aires] have so brilliantly written and are now writing even more extensively, I have drawn up definite rules to enable you to have personal knowledge of the quality both of existing Tango teaching systems and of those which are yet to be constructed. It seemed to me a thing worthy of a man, who ought not to be born for himself only, but also for the utility of others, to publish those rules which I have observed, and now observe, in Tango teaching systems; that one may learn to lay aside the strange abuses, the barbarous inventions, the superfluous expence, and (what is of greater consequence) avoid the various and continual ruins that have been seen in many recent Tango-L postings. Tango teachers everywhere have recognized the need of a tool which may be put in the hands of creators of form, with the simple aim of making the bad Tango dancing difficult and the good Tango dancing easy. This Tango language is extremely practical. You can use it to work with your partners, to improve your town and neighborhood. You can use it to design a Tango school for yourself, with your family; or to work with other people to design a Tango workshop or a Tango Congress. In present day, the theory of Tango teaching structure includes all that is presented in the handbooks of Tango teachers: norms and standards of Tango language. All of them are intended to aid the work of the Tango teacher and improve its product -- the quality of Tango dancing. The aim is thus the same as in technology and production in general: proven theory helps designers to do their work better and more effectively. It occasionally even helps to do things that were believed to be impossible earlier on. As an old saying goes, there is nothing more practical than a good theory. The theory of Tango dance structure consists of all the knowledge that the Tango teacher uses in his work, including how to select the best partner and the most suitable seduction techniques. Moreover, there is advice on how to design practical Tango exercises. You can find out what it includes by studying empirically what source material Tango teachers actually use in their work. This study will reveal that, in addition to rationally motivated Tango rules and methods, this material includes rather miscellaneous and "unscientific" elements; prejudice of the students, whims of fashion, cost saving decisions of travel and horse trade of politicians. Some people say that the Tango teacher is an artist and, unlike engineers, he cannot base his work on theory. This is true, of course: the plan of the Tango teacher cannot come into being only by following the rules of manuals nor by proceeding in a totally rational fashion from the initial information the teacher has. But even an artist has to have his technique. In art, like in any other work, professional skills are needed and that is the same as knowing what you should do, does it not? Skill without knowledge is nothing. While theory of design is intended to help design, it does not necessarily precede design. On the contrary, the first Tango steps where a new dancing style is exposed, is usually created intuitively, without the help of any theory, just by the skill of a brilliant Tango teacher. The design theory comes a little later, and even less brilliant Tango teachers can then base their work on it. In the following are examples of traditions of theory, in other words, paradigms that Tango teachers have applied at different times. In addition to these theories of design, there are numerous descriptive theories made by researchers, e.g. historical theories which were not meant to be applied directly to design; these will not be discussed here. You can find examples of such paradigms of descriptive research elsewhere, under the heading What is beauty? The theories of Tango structural design are classified in two groups in the following. They are: 1. Thematic theories. 2. Theories of synthesis. Thematic theories aim at the fulfillment of one principal goal, often at the cost of other customary goals of Tango structures creation. The structures that ensue are often distinguishable works of art and they can often be used as exemplars in the education of Tango teachers. On the other hand, over-stressing just one of coincident goals has often made these Tango structures inadequate in other respects, and today many of them serve no more in their intended use but as tourist attractions/traps. Theories of Tango synthesis are examples of theories which aim at fulfilling simultaneously several goals, usually all the goals that are known. These paradigms are commonly applied in conventional Tango shows which then produce flashy but customary-looking choreographies which will probably never be included in the books on Tango structural history. If any of you are interested in this subject, feel free to post this message to the Tango-L list with your replies - since Ms. "Moderator" refuses to even acknowledge my messages. Respectfully, Larry "El" Duke.


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:32:36 -0400 From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET> Subject: Tango and philosophy Dear list members some of us have been joking for a while, some people notice others apparently not; if you do not have time for jokes please kindly press delete. Larry Duke has had the kindness of sharing a product of his genius: "Theories of Tango synthesis are examples of theories which aim at fulfilling simultaneously several goals, usually all the goals that are known." -Leon Eakins is absolutely right also when he says talking about cards and hinting a veiled reference to my posting on: Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology: "When I see the Jack it reminds me.................... ' What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence' Ludwig Wittengstein leon." -EUREKA! I am convinced now after reading the contributions of these two unusually intelligent members that the problem of the dreaded 8 count salida has been solved for ever. In my modest opinion these two contributions are equivalent to the theory of relativity. They have solved this most terrible tango pathology that for so long have worried the milongueros the world over. Notice the number 8 in the dreaded basic salida, and also the coincidence with forward and backward,... not seven or six, but also 8s. the famous ocho; which fortunately nobody has found fault with so far. Remember the tango 9 de julio?, a reference to the original 9 count basic salida. Yes the basic salida consisted originally of 9 steps. You see? in the early times of tango you had to be very careful not to step backwards on the foot of a Compadrito because that would have been your last step. So men initiated the salida with a first back step, this was done moving the foot back veeery slowly to make sure nobody was there, if the area was free of other human presence then they rapidly went back to the resting position to again step back with all force, with the confidence that one has when his step is not going to endanger his life. People have lost good manners all over in modern times. They only do the 8cbs. Talking about tango exercises, I like to count the ochos I do in each tango, while I listen to the music, establish rapport with my partner, create figures, lead properly, avoid collision, yes, I keep adding ochos (8,16, 32, etc.) sometimes I have to add half ochos, another problem! so I try to keep the total count below 160 (20 ochos) because I discovered that this way my partner does not get so dizzy. When I reach the 160 count then I dance straight, walk, walk, walk.


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:45:43 -0700 From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET> Subject: Nothing, really. I have been following the postings of all the guys talking about how to teach this dance form called Argentine Tango. I believe that all of this information is very important. When I go to a class and a man is in the class for the first time, none of this information matters to him. Depending upon what he does in life, a fire fighter, a computer "geek," a mechanic, a lawyer, or just a normal guy of whatever vocation, he won't go to another tango class if all of this "stuff" is impressed upon him. I wouldn't. I simply figure out how to talk to the guy and attempt to make the first lesson as enjoyable as possible FOR HIM. All of you forgot this simple tactic to help promote Argentine Tango worldwide. He is already uncomfortable walking in the door. The only way to keep him interested is to take care of him, and make him comfortable. Not usually to teach him movement, but, I'm sorry, to give him the basic step. Because he then has something to look forward to, without a partner, next time he takes the class. And, if he pursues because you nurture him, then he may be able to find that many women are very aggressive, and he may like aggressive women. Or he may not. It is his choice. If he likes aggressive women, obviously from the recent postings on this list, he will be happy -- Era mi pebeta una flor maleva mas linda que un dia dorado de sol. Trenzas renegridas, mirada que ruega, boca palpitante de fuego y amor. Para conquistarla yo me jugue entero, no valia la pena sin ella vivir, peleando con taitas en un entrevero pense que era lindo por ella morir. My girl was like a Maleva flower more beautiful than a golden, sunny day. Very black her braided hair, a begging stare, a mouth palpitating with love and fire. I risked everything to conquer her, for it was worthless to live without her, fighting with malevos in a brawl I thought it was beautiful for her, to die. The milongas have a certain self-governing quality all their own -- if a woman gets big and wants to take on the role of the man and goes after him -- then he will either: Soundly trounce her, Simply refuse, or Say "Yes," no problem. So, please, to all the women who want to change Argentine Tango, in effect you really won't change it at all, because you will just be spinning your wheels... And all the men already know this. Deborah B.A. Tango


End of TANGO-L Digest - 2 Jun 2000 to 3 Jun 2000 (#2000-151) ************************************************************