The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 2 Jun 2000
to 3 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 03:00:44 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 2 Jun 2000 to 3 Jun 2000 (#2000-151)
There are 7 messages totalling 653 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology (2)
2. TANGO ESCAPE IN IDYLLWILD, CA JUNE 16-18
3. 8CBw/DBS
4. [Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology]
5. Tango and philosophy
6. Nothing, really.
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:02:29 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology
I certainly want to congratulate Larry Carrol, Steven Brown, Gavin dixon and
others for their brilliant contributions to unveil the mathematical world of
Argentine Tango.
I am sure that we are just touching the surface of this most interesting
aspect of tango and its metaphysical and theological implications.
Let's consider for a moment the tangos Uno (one) and Tres amigos (Three
friends). A mere mathematical analysis will unveil that we are dealing with
the absolute unity multiplied by three; but there is more...
From the theological point of view it is easy to see that there is a clear
reference to God, only one God, ruler of the universe and the mystery of the
Holy Trinity.
Notice that we are presented only with indivisible, primary numbers, which
points to the truth of God's unification.
Then we have the tango Cuatro compases (Four beats), Dos almas (Two souls)
and again Tres amigos (three friends).
The numbers 4, 2 and 3 in that particular order are clear reference to man's
ambulation throughout his entire life.
Crawling in 4 legs as a baby, walking on 2 as an adult and finally on 3
(cane) during his advanced age. Some people might argue that these days the
cane has been replaced by a walker; precisely, this is the reason in recent
tandas the sequence has been Cuatro compases, Dos Almas, Tres Amigos and
then again Cuatro compases. A clear reference to the walker in the nursing
home.
La ultima copa. (The last drink)- Reference to on which turn the dog lies
down. Obviously on the last one.
El once (eleven) an interesting indivisible number. But 11*3=33. A very
important number from the theological point of view, you all will agree.
There are many, many more, such as 9 de julio, Cuidado con los 50 (Careful
with the 50ies.) Milongueando en el 40, Pedacito de cielo (Sky's little
piece), Ya estamos iguales ( We are even now), etc. but I do not want to
bore you with all this.
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:47:50 EDT
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology
It is interesting to see how arbitrary numbers are given special meanings, ie that 3 being a clear reference to god (not any god but the one that rules the universe)
Taking Sergio's e-mail:
Now that religion monopolized the numbers 1,2,3,4,9,11, 33, 40, 50 and even numbers, (and little numbers): that is one can not use these numbers without referring to a god or some other biblical significance, we may have to use some other abstractions to count.
Please!!! What does tango have to do with any of this ???
Sergio wrote:
>>
.. I am sure that we are just touching the surface of this most interesting aspect of tango and its metaphysical and theological implications.
Let's consider for a moment the tangos Uno (one) and Tres amigos (Three friends). A mere mathematical analysis will unveil that we are dealing with the absolute unity multiplied by three; but there is more...
From the theological point of view it is easy to see that there is a clear reference to God, only one God, ruler of the universe and the mystery of the Holy Trinity.
Notice that we are presented only with indivisible, primary numbers, which points to the truth of God's unification.
Then we have the tango Cuatro compases (Four beats), Dos almas (Two souls) and again Tres amigos (three friends).
The numbers 4, 2 and 3 in that particular order are clear reference to man's ambulation throughout his entire life. Crawling in 4 legs as a baby, walking on 2 as an adult and finally on 3 (cane) during his advanced age. Some people might argue that these days the
cane has been replaced by a walker; precisely, this is the reason in recent tandas the sequence has been Cuatro compases, Dos Almas, Tres Amigos and
then again Cuatro compases. A clear reference to the walker in the nursing home.
La ultima copa. (The last drink)- Reference to on which turn the dog lies down. Obviously on the last one.
El once (eleven) an interesting indivisible number. But 11*3=33. A very important number from the theological point of view, you all will agree.
There are many, many more, such as 9 de julio, Cuidado con los 50 (Careful with the 50ies.) Milongueando en el 40, Pedacito de cielo (Sky's little piece), Ya estamos iguales ( We are even now), etc. but I do not want to
bore you with all this.
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:57:47 EDT
From: Daniela Arcuri <DATango @AOL.COM>
Subject: TANGO ESCAPE IN IDYLLWILD, CA JUNE 16-18
Tango Escape in Idyllwild
June 16, 17 and 18, 2000
Join us for a full weekend of tango in the beautiful San Jacinto mountain=20
escape of Idyllwild.
Tango Classes for All Levels! Tango Music lecture for dancers! Tango Movie!=
=20
Milongas! Contest!=20
PLUS a BIG PARTY on SATURDAY NIGHT- Dinner-Show and Milonga with music by=20
Tango Tres and more!!! =20
Experience the sensuality of the Tango as never before. Feel the passion of=20
world renowned Tango Masters, DANIELA ARCHER & ARMANDO ORZUZA. Their master=
y=20
of the world's most passionate dance, the Tango, has gained them top=20
notoriety in the world today. They are the most sought after performers and=
=20
choreographers of major productions, movies, television shows, commercials=20
and the Broadway stage today. They have gained international recognition fo=
r=20
their performances as well as workshops in more than 150 major cities around=
=20
the world. Daniela and Armando are currently residents of Los Angeles where=
=20
they have regular classes and host a weekly tango night.
TANGO TRES, directed by Pepe Motta A fantastic tango trio, consisting of=20
Pepe Motta on piano, Coco Trivisonno, member of the Forever Tango Orchestra=20
on bandoneon and Pablo Motta on bass. Internationally recognized in the tang=
o=20
world. Don't miss this chance to enjoy a performance and then dance to thei=
r=20
musical magic!
THE PROGRAM=85
FRIDAY
After registering at your hotel, begin the weekend at La Chateaux Lenchantin=
=20
by checking in with us and unwind after your drive and forget the work week=20=
=20
with "empanadas y vino=85" Followed by a special viewing of a tango movie at=
9=20
PM. And of course, let's dance to some of Armando's favorite tangos.
SATURDAY
Late Check In
10 AM Tango for Everyone - All Levels
11:30 AM Tango for Fanatics - Int./Adv.
1-4:30 PM Free time to relax, have lunch and enjoy Idyllwild.
4:30 PM Master Class - All Levels
(All classes are 1 1/2 hours.)
8 PM Dinner served at La Chateaux Lenchantin =20
Perfomances by:
Camerata Tango: Mrs. Lenchantin on piano with string quartet, and introducin=
g=20
the beautiful Bianca Sapetto, aerialist/dancer from Cirque du Soleil. =20=
=20
=20
Daniela & Armando: They will perform with Camerata Tango. Followed by a=20
wonderful performance with Tango Tres, showing different styles and=20
interpretations of the tango.
Tango Tres: Pepe Motta on piano, Coco Trivisonno on bandoneon, and Pablo=20
Motta on bass.
Enjoy the rest of the night as you dance to these talented and passionate=20
musicians and more of Armando's favorites. Try out your new moves while=20
Daniela & Armando select winners from each level ... surprise prizes!
SUNDAY
Enjoy breakfast in your room or in town and check out of hotels.
10:30 AM Tango Music Lecture for Dancers: Presented by Pepe Motta. Enjoy a=20
tour through the history and diversity of tango music with a master pianist.
Classes
2-3:30 PM Tango for Everyone Continued- All Levels=20
3:30-5 PM Master Class Continued - All Levels
CLASS DESCRIPTIONS
Tango for Everybody - Dig deeper into the tango that you know. A fun and=20
challenging class for all levels. =20
Tango for Fanatics - This is for the Tango lovers who can't get enough! A=20
taste of rare and hard to find dances and techniques, such as "Canyenge" and=
=20
"BioTango."
Masters Class - Learn subtle techniques and get individual notes that will=20
refine your dance. Focus on how to dance to different orchestras and=20
exercises to elevate awareness of your relationship to your partner's body.
LA CHATEAUX LENCHANTIN... Similar in style to the "old world" Parisian=20
Salons of Gertrude Stein, the former Tirol Restaurant is nestled 6,000 ft. i=
n=20
the serene San Jacinto Mountains. With floor to ceiling windows allowing a=20
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its doors, including Gina Cerminara, Alan Watts, Olivia de Haviland and=20
Marlon Brando. =20
Visit www.greencafe.com/mansion
LODGING... Idyllwild has many wonderful little hotels and lovely Bed &=20
Breakfasts to choose from. Accommodations in Idyllwild have a two-night=20
minimum - be sure to reserve your rooms early. =20
Five minutes from La Chateaux=85
Silver Pines Lodge and Creekside Cabins =20
(909) 659-4335
Atipahato Lodge =20
(888) 400-0071 www.atipahato.com
Strawberry Creek Inn=20
(800) 262-8969 www.stawberrycreekinn.com
The Cedar Street Inn=20
(909) 659-4789 www.idyllwild.com/cedar.htm
Creekstone Inn Bed & Breakfast=20
(800) 409-2127
...Or contact the Idyllwild Chamber of Commerce for more information. =20
(909) 659-3259 www.idyllwild.org/
DIRECTIONS=85=20
From Los Angeles and Vicinity
10 East towards Banning.
Exit 8th Street - marked "Hwy. 243, Idyllwild".
Turn Right go one block turn left at Lincoln.
Go one block to San Gorgonio Ave. (Hwy. 243)=20
Turn right and travel approx. 25 miles to Idyllwold
From San Diego
15/215 North to State Road 74 at Romoland.
74 East through Hemet.
Left onto Hwy. 243 at Mountain Center to Idyllwild
From Orange County
91 Fwy. towards Riverside
Exit State Road 60 East towards Palm Springs/Indio
Follow directions for travel from LA
La Chateaux Lenchantin =20
53300 Overlook Drive, Idyllwild (Off Hwy. 243)
(909) 659-2255
Sponsors
Kawai America =20
Maple Leaf
Merrill Lynch
SIGN UP
Please mail sign up information (below), along with your payment, to:=20
Strictly Tango Productions, Inc.
3940 Laurel Canyon Blvd., Suite 525
Studio City CA, 91604
Or send your registration info to STProductions @aol.com
*Make checks to Strictly Tango Productions, Inc.
SIGN UP INFORMATION
(Include the number of persons for each package and send the total price.)
1.) Full Package - includes all three days, Classes, Dinner, Show and Milong=
a=20
$190 per person
2.) Dinner, Show and Milonga (does not include Friday or any classes) $50=20
per person
Pay by: Check, Money Order, Visa, Mastercard, American Express
Include Credit Card # and Expiration Date
Include your contact information:
1.) Full Name, 2.) Address, 3.) Phone Numbers and 4.)how long you have been=20
dancing.
CONTACT: Letitia Rogers or Daniela & Armando with any questions or for copie=
s=20
of brochure.
(818) 487-8516
E-mail: STProductions @aol.com
SEE YOU THERE!
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:35:50 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: 8CBw/DBS
>Hello list,
>
>Well, I have to admit, I have been learning some new things these past
>few days regarding Tango & American (USA) attitudes. I was totally
>unaware of the expressions: "dreaded 8-count basic", "dreaded back step",
>''dreaded lean", & now I find that ''original sin'' is ingrained in all
>of us from the tango instruction by Argentine teachers. Can the
>Inquisition be far behind? I`ll be ready for them this time!
>Seriously though, I feel that there are no "dreaded"
>steps/patterns/technique in Tango or any other social dance, only
>"dreaded" dancers. All social dances including Tango, in general consist
>of three basic steps: forward, side, & back. Most social dances have a
>line of dance or a flow of dance. The good instructors teach the
>individual student, especially the leader, how to perform each step to
>the music, around the dance floor maintaining the basic flow/line,
>relating to his/her partner (lead/follow), without interfering with the
>other dancers. One tall order.
I like a real discussion!
This one has consequences in the US because most communities are
still small, inexperienced and growing. They are isolated one from
another and from Buenos Aires. We have all these seed crystals where
the vision, style and habits of the original, core group and the
original teachers will propagate into the future as they grow. In the
larger, established communities you can easily see the consequences
of the initial teaching.
Do you want your community to be inspired by the elegant salon tango
of Nito & Elba Garcia, the flowing improvised tango of Gustavo
Naveira, the stage/fantasy tango of Forever Tango or the very close
and rhythmic style of Cacho Dante?
In 5 years do you want the dancing in your community to look like Buenos Aires?
How do you get from here to there?
Mark identifies some important issues. I'm sure we agree on the value
of the following:
* Learning tango requires effective teaching of good skills at
lead-follow, improvisation, rhythm, musicality, navigation and
authenticity.
There is more to it than that.
To apply the dreaded binary thinking, Tango has an internal/emotional
as well as an external/intellectual aspect. For the follower tango is
almost completely internal. True, the leader has to worry about the
external, but the "real" tango for him is also internal.
I don't see a benefit in using a particular pattern of 8 slow steps
(with DiSarli stuck on repeat!) for achieving any of those things,
not to mention the more important aspects of tango:
internal/emotional, heart & soul & passion.
So my main complaint about 8CBw/DBS is that it is an external,
analytical structure taught as a choreography to beginning men and
women. Athough it has some value for constructing certain kinds of
figures, it should be supplanted by something, that would better
enable students to discover the internal aspects of tango.
In fact, because it is taught as a choreography, the dreaded pattern
takes us on a path AWAY from discovering the "real", internal stuff
of tango. It attracts and rewards analytical personalities, but it is
boring for women and for guys who value the heart (rather than head)
aspects of tango.
Secondly, it instills a framework that doesn't lend itself very well
to authentic tango dancing, ESPECIALLY outside of Argentina where
students have the every opportunity and encouragement to become
habituated to it. We don't have very many good examples of social
tango on our dance floors to show that the 8CBw/DBS is NOT tango.
* The open "salon" tango built out of the 8CB w/DBS is very similar
to fantasy/stage tango most of the travelling Master teachers are
famous for.
* It is rather different from the open-embrace, social tango they
actually do in many salons in Argentina.
* It is almost completely different from the close-embrace tango
built out of smaller, rhythmic elements (also done in many salons in
Argentina), as taught by Susana Miller, Florencia Taccetti, Cacho
Dante, Julio Mendez, Brigitta Winkler, Eric Jorrisen, and others.
>If a leader & or follower has problems with improvisation or is
>completely locked into this pattern, it is, as Stephen Brown points out,
>the fault of the student and/or teacher; not the pattern. To state that a
>follower gets absolutely nothing from learning the "salida basica" is
>absolute nonsense.
If tango is viewed as a choreography, then, yes the woman can learn
how to do a choreography based on the 8CBw/DBS and its variations.
However, if tango is an improvised, lead-follow dance, then women
receive essentially zero benefit from learning ANY pattern, in
particular from the 8CBw/DBS which habituates them to certain
movements.
Aside from the romantic or social opportunities of a beginner class,
women would advance in their tango much faster by studying African or
modern dance.
Oh yes, they need to learn the tango connection, following the cross,
ochos and how to walk nicely. At that point she can learn intuitively
from the better dancers in the community, assuming they don't program
her into the 8CB w/ Dreaded Forward Step.
I have seen many, many examples of leaders locked into their 8CBw/DBS
pattern. Most guys build their dance out of what they learned the
first month or so. It would be more authentic and better for their
partners, the dance floors and the people around them if this initial
conception of Tango were NOT 8 slow steps in a specific pattern.
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:19:05 -0700
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20 @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: [Tango, mathematics, metaphysics and theology]
Dear Tango Friends,
Because I saw what you [Larry de LA, Steve de Texas,
Tom de Colorado, and Sergio de Buenos Aires] have so
brilliantly written and are now writing even more
extensively, I have drawn up definite rules to enable
you to have personal knowledge of the quality both of
existing Tango teaching systems and of those which are
yet to be constructed.
It seemed to me a thing worthy of a man, who ought not
to be born for himself only, but also for the utility
of others, to publish those rules which I have
observed, and now observe, in Tango teaching systems;
that one may learn to lay aside the strange abuses,
the barbarous inventions, the superfluous expence, and
(what is of greater consequence) avoid the various and
continual ruins that have been seen in many recent
Tango-L postings.
Tango teachers everywhere have recognized the need of
a tool which may be put in the hands of creators of
form, with the simple aim of making the bad Tango
dancing difficult and the good Tango dancing easy.
This Tango language is extremely practical. You can
use it to work with your partners, to improve your
town and neighborhood. You can use it to design a
Tango school for yourself, with your family; or to
work with other people to design a Tango workshop or a
Tango Congress.
In present day, the theory of Tango teaching structure
includes all that is presented in the handbooks of
Tango teachers: norms and standards of Tango language.
All of them are intended to aid the work of the Tango
teacher and improve its product -- the quality of
Tango dancing. The aim is thus the same as in
technology and production in general: proven theory
helps designers to do their work better and more
effectively. It occasionally even helps to do things
that were believed to be impossible earlier on. As an
old saying goes, there is nothing more practical than
a good theory.
The theory of Tango dance structure consists of all
the knowledge that the Tango teacher uses in his work,
including how to select the best partner and the most
suitable seduction techniques. Moreover, there is
advice on how to design practical Tango exercises. You
can find out what it includes by studying empirically
what source material Tango teachers actually use in
their work. This study will reveal that, in addition
to rationally motivated Tango rules and methods, this
material includes rather miscellaneous and
"unscientific" elements; prejudice of the students,
whims of fashion, cost saving decisions of travel and
horse trade of politicians.
Some people say that the Tango teacher is an artist
and, unlike engineers, he cannot base his work on
theory. This is true, of course: the plan of the Tango
teacher cannot come into being only by following the
rules of manuals nor by proceeding in a totally
rational fashion from the initial information the
teacher has. But even an artist has to have his
technique. In art, like in any other work,
professional skills are needed and that is the same as
knowing what you should do, does it not? Skill without
knowledge is nothing.
While theory of design is intended to help design, it
does not necessarily precede design. On the contrary,
the first Tango steps where a new dancing style is
exposed, is usually created intuitively, without the
help of any theory, just by the skill of a brilliant
Tango teacher. The design theory comes a little later,
and even less brilliant Tango teachers can then base
their work on it.
In the following are examples of traditions of theory,
in other words, paradigms that Tango teachers have
applied at different times. In addition to these
theories of design, there are numerous descriptive
theories made by researchers, e.g. historical theories
which were not meant to be applied directly to design;
these will not be discussed here. You can find
examples of such paradigms of descriptive research
elsewhere, under the heading What is beauty?
The theories of Tango structural design are classified
in two groups in the following. They are:
1. Thematic theories.
2. Theories of synthesis.
Thematic theories aim at the fulfillment of one
principal goal, often at the cost of other customary
goals of Tango structures creation. The structures
that ensue are often distinguishable works of art and
they can often be used as exemplars in the education
of Tango teachers.
On the other hand, over-stressing just one of
coincident goals has often made these Tango structures
inadequate in other respects, and today many of them
serve no more in their intended use but as tourist
attractions/traps.
Theories of Tango synthesis are examples of theories
which aim at fulfilling simultaneously several goals,
usually all the goals that are known. These paradigms
are commonly applied in conventional Tango shows
which then produce flashy but customary-looking
choreographies which will probably never be included
in the books on Tango structural history.
If any of you are interested in this subject, feel
free to post this message to the Tango-L list with
your replies - since Ms. "Moderator" refuses to even
acknowledge my messages.
Respectfully,
Larry "El" Duke.
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:32:36 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Tango and philosophy
Dear list members some of us have been joking for a while, some people
notice others apparently not; if you do not have time for jokes please
kindly press delete.
Larry Duke has had the kindness of sharing a product of his genius:
"Theories of Tango synthesis are examples of theories
which aim at fulfilling simultaneously several goals,
usually all the goals that are known."
-Leon Eakins is absolutely right also when he says talking about cards and
hinting a veiled reference to my posting on: Tango, mathematics, metaphysics
and theology:
"When I see the Jack it reminds me....................
' What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence'
Ludwig Wittengstein
leon."
-EUREKA!
I am convinced now after reading the contributions of these two unusually
intelligent members that the problem of the dreaded 8 count salida has been
solved for ever. In my modest opinion these two contributions are equivalent
to the theory of relativity. They have solved this most terrible tango
pathology that for so long have worried the milongueros the world over.
Notice the number 8 in the dreaded basic salida, and also the coincidence
with forward and backward,... not seven or six, but also 8s. the famous
ocho; which fortunately nobody has found fault with so far.
Remember the tango 9 de julio?, a reference to the original 9 count basic
salida. Yes the basic salida consisted originally of 9 steps. You see? in
the early times of tango you had to be very careful not to step backwards on
the foot of a Compadrito because that would have been your last step. So men
initiated the salida with a first back step, this was done moving the foot
back veeery slowly to make sure nobody was there, if the area was free of
other human presence then they rapidly went back to the resting position to
again step back with all force, with the confidence that one has when his
step is not going to endanger his life. People have lost good manners all
over in modern times. They only do the 8cbs.
Talking about tango exercises, I like to count the ochos I do in each tango,
while I listen to the music, establish rapport with my partner, create
figures, lead properly, avoid collision, yes, I keep adding ochos (8,16, 32,
etc.) sometimes I have to add half ochos, another problem! so I try to keep
the total count below 160 (20 ochos) because I discovered that this way my
partner does not get so dizzy. When I reach the 160 count then I dance
straight, walk, walk, walk.
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:45:43 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Nothing, really.
I have been following the postings of all the guys
talking about how to teach this dance form called
Argentine Tango. I believe that all of this information
is very important.
When I go to a class and a man is in the class for
the first time, none of this information matters to him.
Depending upon what he does in life, a fire fighter,
a computer "geek," a mechanic, a lawyer, or just a
normal guy of whatever vocation, he won't go to
another tango class if all of this "stuff" is impressed
upon him. I wouldn't.
I simply figure out how to talk to the guy and attempt
to make the first lesson as enjoyable as possible
FOR HIM. All of you forgot this simple tactic to
help promote Argentine Tango worldwide.
He is already uncomfortable walking in the door.
The only way to keep him interested is to take care
of him, and make him comfortable. Not usually to
teach him movement, but, I'm sorry, to give him the
basic step. Because he then has something to look
forward to, without a partner, next time he takes the
class.
And, if he pursues because you nurture him, then he
may be able to find that many women are very
aggressive, and he may like aggressive women.
Or he may not.
It is his choice.
If he likes aggressive women, obviously from the
recent postings on this list, he will be happy --
Era mi pebeta una flor maleva
mas linda que un dia dorado de sol.
Trenzas renegridas, mirada que ruega,
boca palpitante de fuego y amor.
Para conquistarla yo me jugue entero,
no valia la pena sin ella vivir,
peleando con taitas en un entrevero
pense que era lindo por ella morir.
My girl was like a Maleva flower
more beautiful than a golden, sunny day.
Very black her braided hair, a begging stare,
a mouth palpitating with love and fire.
I risked everything to conquer her,
for it was worthless to live without her,
fighting with malevos in a brawl
I thought it was beautiful for her, to die.
The milongas have a certain self-governing quality
all their own -- if a woman gets big and wants to
take on the role of the man and goes after him --
then he will either:
Soundly trounce her,
Simply refuse, or
Say "Yes," no problem.
So, please, to all the women who want to change
Argentine Tango, in effect you really won't change it
at all, because you will just be spinning your wheels...
And all the men already know this.
Deborah
B.A. Tango
End of TANGO-L Digest - 2 Jun 2000 to 3 Jun 2000 (#2000-151)
************************************************************