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Digest from 17 Jul 2000
to 18 Jul 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:00:39 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 17 Jul 2000 to 18 Jul 2000 (#2000-196)
There are 7 messages totalling 551 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Milonguero Vs. Salon Style
2. Tango Shoes
3. Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango (4)
4. passion vs.?
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:41:32 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Milonguero Vs. Salon Style
Milonguero Style, close embrace, club style, tango apilado, confiteria style
generally refer to the same dancing form.
It is a style developed to dance in crowded places, in close embrace that is
not disturbed during the dance, with simplified choreography proper to dance
in a small area. The dance is rhythmic with syncopations, the diminished
external beauty is compensated by the intense inner feeling. Danced in many
places in downtown Buenos Aires and in Europe.
This style is favored by teachers like Susana Miller, Tete and Silvia, etc.
Tango Salon refers to a more elegant way of dancing, the body more erect in
contrast to the canyengue that required more flexion of knees and waist. A
form very rich in choreography. The dance alternates a close embrace with a
certain degree of separation of the dancing partners to allow turns and
figures.
This style is favored by the great majority of instructors, Osvaldo Zoto,
Nito and Elba, Rodolfo Cieri, Puppy Costello, Mingo Pugliese, Carlos y
Alicia, Jorge y Aurora Firpo to name a few.
Today in Buenos Aires one can find Salon Style (also called Villa Urquiza in
reference to the city quarter where it is danced), at Clubs Sin Rumbo,
Sunderland, etc. Milonguero in many places including downtown, Salon
Canning, Almagro, etc. and also Nuevo Tango, in many clubs danced mostly at
the end of the night when there is more room.
The preference of Styles may varie in the other cities of Argentina.
In Mar del Plata for instance Milonguero Style is almost completely absent.
Milonguero is a person that goes dancing to the Milongas assiduously,
however Milonguero Style refers to a distinct form of dancing tango. This
style was developed out of necessity: crowding in the dancing halls of
Buenos Aires. This situation usually does not exist in the USA.
Those that learn Salon Style first, will be able to dance any other form
later on with certain ease as they will learn all the tango techniques. The
ones that learn Milonguero first, on the other hand, will learn a very
limited number of moves and techniques; they will have a terrible time
trying to learn to dance salon and most likely will remain attached to the
only form they will know, milonguero.
There was no intention to prevent the American Student from learning the
Apilado form, it happens that most of the well known instructors of
Argentine Tango dance Salon. There are very few that teach the Milonguero,
which is very easy to learn.
To dance in close embrace is not an exclusive element of Milonguero style,
Salon is also danced in close embrace; example: Carlos Copello who becomes
separated very seldom while dancing the most pure Salon form.
For those that travel to Buenos Aires, if you wish to dance Salon go to
clubs where that form is danced; if you wish to dance milonguero go to halls
where that form is danced.
If you are in a club for Milonguero style do not attempt to dance Salon
because there is a great chance that the other person does not know how to
dance that way. Further more, even if she/he knows they will resent, dislike
dancing in any other way as they are in that particular club because they
prefer that style. After you attempt to dance Salon in a milonguero place
nobody else will dance with you. The Salon dancers on the other hand
generally do not mind dancing Milonguero from time to time.
Summary: Milonguero, Salon, are two different forms to dance tango.
Milonguero is adapted to dancing in crowded spaces but Salon also may be
done where there is no room to move. Milonguero is done in close embrace,
Salon may be done in either close or open embrace.
You should do the form you like the most, or as in my case, either of them,
depending on the occasion, the place, the music the lady.
You should not dance Milonguero only because people in Buenos Aires have
crowded floors, if you do not; mostly when most of you dance in Buenos Aires
two or three weeks out of the whole year and the rest in the USA where the
floors have plenty of room to dance...
... but with that special lady I do not care how much room there is around I
am going to dance close embrace, the style? -- - whichever she prefers. :)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 02:06:44 +0900
From: Sang Hyeon Chang <chang @BARAM.PHYS.TOHOKU.AC.JP>
Subject: Tango Shoes
Hello lists,
A few days ago, I attended a party in Tokyo. At that party,
there was a Argentine lady who brought lots of tango shoes
which are produced in Argentina. That was the first time I ever
saw the tango shoes. I was quite suprised that it is much heavier
than ordinary dance shoes and the sole is hard and thick.
There was one thing that I never heard of.. All of the shoes, have
small metal plate at the tip of the sole. It looks like that metal
plate can be separated from the sole. I asked the lady what this for.
She spoke very fluent Japanese. Unfortunately, mine is quite poor
and thus I could not understand the explanations.
Can anyone in this list explain it to me? That metal plate is square
and about 2cm X 1 cm size. it can be placed just under the toe.
Sang
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:48:50 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango
Manuel Patino wrote:
> I will not deny that rubbing breasts can be
> pleasurable, but if that is all you want to do, you are denying the
> posibility of a more rich and varied dance.
>
This notion, which seem to be getting perpetuated, may be
a bit misleading, I think. Close embrace, if one
is to dance for hours this way, I would think would have
to be more like a bird's nest -- cozy, warm, fully constraing
and yet absolutely free. Holding the partner tight is not
only uncomfortable(to both dancers) but may also lead
to a 'thank you' after the first dance.
One reason why this may not be taught in US is that, as sergio says,
there is plenty of room and there is no need for it. Second reason
would be that it is easier to teach figures which are concrete
than abstract things (musicality, etc.,), which a milonguero
might strive for, in a tight schedule of a visiting teacher
especially if people want to check whether they learnt their
money's worth.
Not that it is necessarily bad since frame, holding one's own
weight etc., seem to be better learnt that way. Some people
who learn only close embrace have difficulty carrying their
own weight completely.
rajan.
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:31:38 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango
Dear Manuel and others,
Concerning what Tom Stermitz calls the
"Labor Day Milonguero Weekend in Denver"
and what stimulated Manuel to write about
"Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango",
I really must respond.
If you love to have fun with tango, if you want to visit
a welcoming community, enjoy live music, and have a blast,
then come to Denver on Labor Day weekend.
This is not in any way an exclusive event!
This will be such a great mix of live music, deejayed music,
indoor milongas, outdoor milonga, socializing, close-embrace
tango, open-embrace tango, and more. With so many visitors
from around the country, you'll have to ask if your partner
is a local or a visitor.
Don't get caught up in the style arguments.
Don't think this weekend will only be close embrace.
I doubt it.
I myself like a close embrace, but I also like to do
fancier figures on occasion, and even when it's crowded,
there's room if done tightly.
We don't have "style police".
As long as you're not crashing into people, we really don't
care.
DO think that we love to have visitors.
DO think that many of us enjoy a variety of styles.
DO think that we would love to have you here.
DO think that this weekend will be a blast!
The main thing is to have fun, and enjoy the weekend!
> I did not think that all of Colorado danced or preferred the apilado style.
It doesn't.
> But I did think that your upcoming weekend was exclusively for apilados.
Sorry.
The "emphasis" may be on close embrace,
but at the milongas, anything goes,
except that with all the visitors,
it's going to be crowded.
> It did seem that your event had a certain air(?) of exclusivity. I though I
> denoted a very sharp distinction made between your way of dancing(?) tango
> and that of others. It almost sounds like an *Us and Them* sort of
> proposition.
I went back and re-read Tom's announcement. I don't see
anything about "exclusivity" in it. Just "emphasis".
There is nothing wrong with having a "theme" for a weekend.
I think the only people who would feel unwelcome or excluded
are those who need the entire salon to do their dance.
> You are welcome to come to Atlanta too. You'll find that plenty
> of Tanturi, Troilo, Darienzo are played and danced here. Also Calo, Laurenz,
> Demare, Di Sarli and more. Oh yeah, plenty of Pugliese too and even
> Piazzolla. You can hold the women here as close and as tight as they'll
> allow it, and nobody will ever ask you to do any firuletes you are not
> comfortable with ;-)
And you're welcome to come to Denver.
You'll find plenty of Biagi, D'Arienzo (old & new), De Angelis,
Canaro, Tanturi, Rodriguez, Carabelli, Calo, DiSarli (old & new),
Color Tango, El Arranque, Piazzolla, and even Pugliese <smile>.
And when I'm on DJ duty at the Mercury, I'll consider requests,
and have played swango, swing, salsa, Georg Friedrich Handel,
Vivaldi, merengue, and even Fresedo <smile>.
And, oh yeah, there's also Gobbi, D'Agostino, etc, etc, etc.
Sheesh! What is one arguing about anyway?
Come and enjoy the fun!
El tango . . . es el tango!
Dave Schmitz
Denver, Colorado
DJ at the Mercury
Host for the Utah Seven
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:51:45 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango
David,
Thank you for the gracious invitation and for clarifying the Coloradans
dance proclivities ;-) Sorry if I misunderstood the purpose and aim of your
"apilado" event. I guess it was unusual to see such wording associated with
this event. It did seem to be something other than just 'come to Denver and
dance tango with us'.
Tom has posted at length his belief of an (international?) conspiracy to
keep the *apilados* from propagating their doctrine throughout the land ;-)
He made several statements regarding the *apilado* style, it's authenticity,
etc. I know that some of the people are very ardent believers that *apilado*
is the only authentic way to dance tango, but I think you are saying it is
OK to come to Denver even if you are not a part of the *apilado* club. It
still sounds like it is an event geared towards certain groups of tangueros
and not really an *all inclusive* sort of thing. It seems to be something
*different than the norm*, somewhere were finally the apilados can be free
to enjoy themselves away from the oppression of those inconsiderate *salon*
dancers ;-).
I think it is great that you all are doing this. It is probably also good
for tango and maybe it will draw more people into the tango scene. I also
think it is good to have a venue where people can be with those more like
themselves. My guess is that this might be an impetus for other groups to
stage their own preferred style weekends. Maybe we'll soon see *Fantasia*
dance weekends and *Salon* events or even *nuevo tango* emphasis in some
venues (large airplane hangars come to mind :-)) Anyway, I guess some of the
more obscure styles like canyengue or orillero will probably not be able to
attract enough participants but who knows, maybe they can be absorbed into
some of the others as *special events within the event*, maybe they get to
dance to particular Firpo or Canaro songs during break?
All kidding aside, you guys are great! good luck in all your tango
endeavors. I'm sure you all will have a swell time on the Labor Day weekend.
Have a great time and enjoy the camaraderie and the dancing.
Varied styles to all,
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @magellan.teq.stortek.com>
To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>; <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Cc: <dschmitz @magellan.teq.stortek.com>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango
> Dear Manuel and others,
>
> Concerning what Tom Stermitz calls the
> "Labor Day Milonguero Weekend in Denver"
> and what stimulated Manuel to write about
> "Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango",
> I really must respond.
>
>
> If you love to have fun with tango, if you want to visit
> a welcoming community, enjoy live music, and have a blast,
> then come to Denver on Labor Day weekend.
>
> This is not in any way an exclusive event!
>
> This will be such a great mix of live music, deejayed music,
> indoor milongas, outdoor milonga, socializing, close-embrace
> tango, open-embrace tango, and more. With so many visitors
> from around the country, you'll have to ask if your partner
> is a local or a visitor.
>
>
> Don't get caught up in the style arguments.
> Don't think this weekend will only be close embrace.
> I doubt it.
> I myself like a close embrace, but I also like to do
> fancier figures on occasion, and even when it's crowded,
> there's room if done tightly.
> We don't have "style police".
> As long as you're not crashing into people, we really don't
> care.
>
> DO think that we love to have visitors.
> DO think that many of us enjoy a variety of styles.
> DO think that we would love to have you here.
> DO think that this weekend will be a blast!
>
> The main thing is to have fun, and enjoy the weekend!
>
>
>
> > I did not think that all of Colorado danced or preferred the apilado
style.
>
> It doesn't.
>
>
> > But I did think that your upcoming weekend was exclusively for apilados.
>
> Sorry.
> The "emphasis" may be on close embrace,
> but at the milongas, anything goes,
> except that with all the visitors,
> it's going to be crowded.
>
>
> > It did seem that your event had a certain air(?) of exclusivity. I
though I
> > denoted a very sharp distinction made between your way of dancing(?)
tango
> > and that of others. It almost sounds like an *Us and Them* sort of
> > proposition.
>
> I went back and re-read Tom's announcement. I don't see
> anything about "exclusivity" in it. Just "emphasis".
> There is nothing wrong with having a "theme" for a weekend.
>
> I think the only people who would feel unwelcome or excluded
> are those who need the entire salon to do their dance.
>
>
> > You are welcome to come to Atlanta too. You'll find that plenty
> > of Tanturi, Troilo, Darienzo are played and danced here. Also Calo,
Laurenz,
> > Demare, Di Sarli and more. Oh yeah, plenty of Pugliese too and even
> > Piazzolla. You can hold the women here as close and as tight as they'll
> > allow it, and nobody will ever ask you to do any firuletes you are not
> > comfortable with ;-)
>
> And you're welcome to come to Denver.
> You'll find plenty of Biagi, D'Arienzo (old & new), De Angelis,
> Canaro, Tanturi, Rodriguez, Carabelli, Calo, DiSarli (old & new),
> Color Tango, El Arranque, Piazzolla, and even Pugliese <smile>.
> And when I'm on DJ duty at the Mercury, I'll consider requests,
> and have played swango, swing, salsa, Georg Friedrich Handel,
> Vivaldi, merengue, and even Fresedo <smile>.
> And, oh yeah, there's also Gobbi, D'Agostino, etc, etc, etc.
>
> Sheesh! What is one arguing about anyway?
> Come and enjoy the fun!
>
> El tango . . . es el tango!
>
> Dave Schmitz
> Denver, Colorado
> DJ at the Mercury
> Host for the Utah Seven
>
>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:42:19 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango
>Manuel Patino wrote:
>
>
> > I will not deny that rubbing breasts can be
> > pleasurable, but if that is all you want to do, you are denying the
> > posibility of a more rich and varied dance.
> >
>
>This notion, which seem to be getting perpetuated, may be
>a bit misleading, I think. Close embrace, if one
>is to dance for hours this way, I would think would have
>to be more like a bird's nest -- cozy, warm, fully constraing
>and yet absolutely free. Holding the partner tight is not
>only uncomfortable(to both dancers) but may also lead
>to a 'thank you' after the first dance.
I agree with your cozy and warm description.
I think that the technique of rubbing breasts may be uncomfortable or
unpleasant for the woman, although I'm sure that some men (Latin or
not) sometimes are so rude as to grope or otherwise rub breasts.
I think of Milonguero as "merging hearts," which is rather closer
than the 2 inches (or so) necessary for "rubbing breasts."
>One reason why this may not be taught in US is that, as sergio says,
>there is plenty of room and there is no need for it. Second reason
>would be that it is easier to teach figures which are concrete
>than abstract things (musicality, etc.,), which a milonguero
>might strive for, in a tight schedule of a visiting teacher
>especially if people want to check whether they learnt their
>money's worth.
One other reason is that many N. Americans may be afraid of getting
too close to one another; a wise marketing campaign might be to avoid
stepping on native sensibilities, even if your instruction was less
"authentic."
I actually notice the opposite, i.e. most people are thrilled about
the connection and closeness of tango, and even more so with the
merged hearts of close-embrace.
>Not that it is necessarily bad since frame, holding one's own
>weight etc., seem to be better learnt that way. Some people
>who learn only close embrace have difficulty carrying their
>own weight completely.
>
>rajan.
There are close-embrace teachers who instruct in the A-Frame style,
asking the woman to "give him her weight," a technique that is
painful for the back. I really dislike this style and it isn't
typical of the milonguero style, as taught by Susana Miller, Brigitta
Winkler, Eric Jorissen,...
To generalize, the typical followers in Argentina are "denser" when
compared to the typical American follower, but to ask the follower to
lean on the leader is a very odd thing to ask.
I agree to a certain extent with Rajan and Sergio's warnings that
women who learn milonguero may have a hard time carrying their own
weight, but with good instruction this shouldn't happen. I have
noticed when women learn only by following, that they can pick up bad
habits, a warning that is especially appropriate in our young US
Communities with many in-authentic styles of tango and many
inexperienced leaders.
Also, the old milongueros of Argentina sense when the woman doesn't
know, and are capable of making it happen, including rather firm
leading technigues that they wouldn't use with someone more
experienced. A beginner woman often returns from Buenos Aires
convinced that all she needs are some "real men" to give her a good
dance.
It is a disaster for a woman to try to learn tango kinesthetically
"just by picking it up" if her primary models and local leaders are
not very good.
I would like to add to Sergio's definition a little.
I have noticed a really key element of "milonguero" vs simply close
embrace, which is a particular rhythmic pulse and drive. There is a
grounded-ness and an almost African syncopation that is absolutely
characteristic of the milongueros of Buenos Aires, but not part of
tango outside of Buenos Aires. I am not certain if this is absent in
the salon style dancers of Buenos Aires, but it is primary in the
highly rhythmic D'Arienzo.
This is deep work, and I have had the pleasure of watching Susana
Miller teach it (but no one else so far). A very special aspect of
Susana's teaching is that she is trying to communicate this aspect
which she has studeied with the older milongueros.
On the other hand some of the workshop attendees walked out, thinking
that she wasn't teaching anything at all!
Interesting, but perhaps people see only what they are ready for?
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:13:10 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: passion vs.?
Here we go again: milonguero style vs. open frame. If anyone was to
publish these discussions from tango-l, volumes would appear... with the
same authors of a deadly serious controversy!
Just one comment to this one: we just came back from the International
tango week in Nijmegen after observing a week of classes taught by a
wonderful teacher Eric Jorissen. I do not believe Eric ever suggested
that a follower "gives weight" to a leader. On the contrary, his
classes focused on keeping one's own balance; feeling the music, and
moving accordingly; and most importantly being creative on a dance
floor, not pushy, not showy, but expressive. Eric is a fabulous teacher:
he does not teach steps, counts, and/or combinations. He motivates his
students to express themselves at their best tango. How a dancer moves
makes tango beautiful, not how many embelishments he/ she produces per
second. What difference does the style make?
Eugenia
End of TANGO-L Digest - 17 Jul 2000 to 18 Jul 2000 (#2000-196)
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