The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 12 Jul 2000
to 13 Jul 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:00:25 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 12 Jul 2000 to 13 Jul 2000 (#2000-191)
There are 9 messages totalling 527 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. of romance and stumbling feet (was Tangasms in BsAs) (2)
2. The Romance in Tango (2)
3. NORA'S TANGO WEEK
4. SF B'WAY CLOSED 7/15 FOR FLOOR REFINISHING
5. Tango Workshop Canberra - Australia
6. Tango Workshop Brisbane - Australia
7. Technique
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:17:15 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: of romance and stumbling feet (was Tangasms in BsAs)
Original Message -----
From: Tom Ronquillo <tigrre @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tangasms in BsAs
> At 07:25 AM 7/11/00 +0000, ASTRID SATO wrote:
snip
> >... there are an awful lot of people around, who, rather than exalting in
> >sensual prowess, are very preoccupied with technique, executing steps
> >correctly, checking their looks in the mirror or , at worst, trying to
> >compete with the very woman they are dancing with.
It's hard to exalt in sensual prowess while one's feet are stumbling on each
other or stepping on one's partner's toes ;-) Ditto if one is desperately
trying to keep one's balance while finding enough space on the dance floor
and a way to maneuver.
> >I think it takes close to a year of practising, before you can enter
> >blissful oblivion and the steps will just happen naturally, gliding along
> >with the flow of the music without a thought entering your mind.
> >That's when you can exalt... And it also takes a certain kind of spirit,
This could be right. Of course, it depends on the person and their teacher.
Some can progress much more quickly but the reality is that it takes time to
learn to dance well enough to"exalt in sensuality", even if one has a
"certain kind of spirit,"
> >we even have a teacher from BsAs here who seems more interested in
> >watching himself in the mirror, making his dance partner feel very lonely
> >sometimes.
>
> Dance teachers are human and not the Gods that they are sometimes promoted
> as. Like the rest of us mortals, some are vain, some are jerks and some
are
> splendid people.
I agree with Tom, people are people and they run the gamut. It is probably
best to avoid focusing on individuals and their foibles when discussing
tango. There is lots to discuss regarding people's bad qualities which are
manifest in tango as well as in many other aspects of life. Besides, all of
us exhibit good and bad qualities to a certain extent. Nobody is perfect and
we all are guilty of the same transgressions at some level ;-)
> >And remember the guy who wrote, people looking for romance should be sent
> >to the nearest salsa bar, and don't belong in the tango world ? I'm still
> >wondering what he meant ? Is he trying to say tango is only for
> >disciplined acrobats, who do their romancing at home ?
>
> I wouldn't dare to publicly guess what a fellow Listee was trying to say
in
> a post. People in tango have their own ideas about what should or
> shouldn't be valued. I think there is room for acrobats and romantics.
I think it is not a matter of guessing. He plainly stated his disdain for
people who are looking for romatic connections at milongas and for salsa
dancing. This is his prerogative and his oopinion. I think he was wrong on
both counts. AFAIC, it is perfectly OK for people to attend milongas or any
other social function with the aim of finding romantic adventures. I also
love to dance Salsa and I think it is a very exciting dance which requires
skill and provides with an excellent means of self expression. This is not a
Salsa forum but there is no need to denigrate and devalue something just
because we don't know it, understand it or lack the ability to participate
in it.
> Melville Fox explained it wonderfully -
Yes he did, Kudos to him!
> "I don't think it's really a matter of weight per se that makes a man
feel
> the presence of a
> woman in tango.
snip
> >And what are those sexy adornos that Esther Pugliese does ?
>
> You must be a spectator to see them properly. They are often simply
little
> hooks and taps, but done with such finesse! Her partner would hardly
> notice them.
>
> El Tigre
Interesting observation and interesting subject. Here we have justified
admiration for the skill of Esther's dancing from an spectator's point of
view no less!! Of course, I agree whole heartedly with the praise of her
dancing *and* with the enjoyment of watching her dance. It is perfectly OK
to enjoy watching great dancers dance. It takes nothing away from tango. It
is wrong to say that dancing so the watchers enjoy it is bad. Dancing *is*
an exhibition whether the dancers want it or not. Unless the couple is alone
and dancing totally for each other (or each of themselves), they are
participants in a group event which involves other dancers and other people
who just watch.
Pleasant tangos to all,
Manuel
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:00:33 PDT
From: Erica Sutton <ericaatwork @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: of romance and stumbling feet (was Tangasms in BsAs)
>This is not a Salsa forum
Does anyone know if there is one?
It would interest me to observe the conversations on another dance ~
specifically salsa.
Often our list-writers make references to the other dances they dance, so
maybe someone out there has knowledge of a Salsa-L?
A personal reply would be fine.
Erica ~ tango @argentinamail.com
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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:09:06 EDT
From: Leonardo Tanguero <TangoLeon @AOL.COM>
Subject: The Romance in Tango
On July 3, 2000 I made the following comment in a post to tango-l:
"People become involved with tango for numerous reasons. Some enjoy the
challenge of learning an intricate dance. Some are attracted to the music and
the emotional expression. Some are single people looking for a social
activity where there is the possibility of romantic involvement. (Of course,
this last group doesn't belong in tango and should be directed immediately to
the nearest swing or salsa club.)"
Manuel Patino responded:
"Why make such statement? it is a hasty and incorrect assumption that swing
or salsa are somehow only danced by people looking for romantic involvement.
Swing and Salsa dancers are as serious about their dancing as tango dancers.
There are many in their ranks who strive for excellence and there are also
those who *just want to experience the emotions and passion of the music"
and the closeness to their partner."
Astrid Sato wrote:
>And remember the guy who wrote, people looking for romance should be sent
>to the nearest salsa bar, and don't belong in the tango world ? I'm still
>wondering what he meant ? Is he trying to say tango is only for
>disciplined acrobats, who do their romancing at home ?
Manuel Patino responded:
"I think it is not a matter of guessing. He plainly stated his disdain for
people who are looking for romatic connections at milongas and for salsa
dancing. This is his prerogative and his oopinion. I think he was wrong
on both counts. AFAIC, it is perfectly OK for people to attend milongas or
any other social function with the aim of finding romantic adventures. I also
love to dance Salsa and I think it is a very exciting dance which requires
skill and provides with an excellent means of self expression. This is
not a Salsa forum but there is no need to denigrate and devalue something just
because we don't know it, understand it or lack the ability to participate in
it."
__________________________________________________________________
Wow, this has gone way too far!!
It appears that unless one puts a smiley face [ :-) ] after a comment meant
to be humorous, some people will misunderstand the intent. So please allow me
the opportunity to say what I really meant.
I have been exposed to many different forms of dance that I've explored over
the years (ballroom dancing, country and western, contra dancing, salsa,
swing, and tango). Within my admittedly somewhat limited geographic exposure
(US Midwest; NYC area; Ottawa area, Canada) to different dance communities,
I have noticed that there are a large proportion of single people in dance
communities. My experience with salsa and swing in particular is that at
public dances there is a lot of overt flirtation and sexual advances being
made. This is only an observation, made without value judgement about
people's motives and is certainly not a statement about the quality or
difficulty of the dances. There is no doubt that good salsa and swing dancing
require good instruction, analysis, and a lot of practice, just like tango.
As a matter of record, I enjoy really salsa and swing (but not as much as
tango). My comment about romantic activities in the tango community reflects
what I have observed - that milongas are so serious compared to swing and
salsa dances. If there is flirtation, it is less common and much more subtle.
I think this is because US tango communities tend to be more much analytical
and cerebral than salsa and swing communities. I see this as a deficiency in
the US tango culture as I have seen it. (I'd be glad to hear otherwise that
there are milongas all around the US where romance fills the air. Please tell
me where.) In my opinion, tango is the most romantic / sensual / erotic of
all of these dances I've mentioned. Yet I see so much tango danced that is
devoid of this passion. What a shame.
Leonardo
El Leon del Tango
TangoLeon @aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:39:18 -0500
From: Tom Ronquillo <tigrre @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: The Romance in Tango
At 02:09 PM 7/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
>...My comment about romantic activities in the tango community reflects
>what I have observed - that milongas are so serious compared to swing and
>salsa dances. If there is flirtation, it is less common and much more subtle.
>I think this is because US tango communities tend to be more much analytical
>and cerebral than salsa and swing communities. I see this as a deficiency in
>the US tango culture as I have seen it. (I'd be glad to hear otherwise that
>there are milongas all around the US where romance fills the air. Please tell
>me where.) In my opinion, tango is the most romantic / sensual / erotic of
>all of these dances I've mentioned. Yet I see so much tango danced that is
>devoid of this passion. What a shame.
Hola Leonardo,
Romance was always the air when I danced with Nancy (Ronquillo, not Ingle)
at milongas that you hosted. Haven't you ever noticed? I'll try to be a bit
more overt with my sensuality the next time I dance with tu novia Susana at
one of your milongas. Just don't get any ideas about stabbing me.
El Tigre
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:40:38 -0700
From: "Pelayo Llamas, Jr." <pelayojr @LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: NORA'S TANGO WEEK
You may all know that the San Francisco Bay Area is arguably the
Argentine Tango capital of the United States. Nora Dinzelbacher's Tango
Week is 1/2 over. I think all who've met Nora love her. I thought you
might want to read some very interesting information about her history
and how significant she has been to the teaching of AT in the Bay Area
and many other places. The following is a link to a story in the San
Francisco Examiner newspaper from July 5, 2000. I had an exhilarating
experience at Tango Weekend and I hope you all can make it here some
day.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/hotnews/stories/05/Stango.dtl
Ciao, Pelayo.
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:39:06 EDT
From: Stephen Palubinskas <Steph34909 @AOL.COM>
Subject: SF B'WAY CLOSED 7/15 FOR FLOOR REFINISHING
Broadway will be closed this Sunday 7/15 for floor refinishing. My deepest
apologies.... We will open the following week, Sunday 7/23 with some free
drinks and (hopefully) a beautiful new finish on the floor.
Steve
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:46:12 +0800
From: Pete Hollings <Pete_Hollings @CORRS.COM.AU>
Subject: Tango Workshop Canberra - Australia
Dying to do a Tango workshop?
Well here's your chance to make a trip to Canberra and spend the weeken=
d
learning the finer points of Argentine Tango!
Gaston Valdes and his team will be conducting a workshop in Canberra on=
the
weekend 21/07/2000-23/07/2000
Cost: $30.00 per session.
Venue:
=BFDonde esta? Tango Club
C/- TUTU TANGO CAFE & BAR
124 Bunda Street, Canberra City 2601
Contact:
Rod Daniells:
(02) 6244 7890 (business hours); (02) 6281 0830 (after hours)
Email: Rod.Daniells @facs.gov.au,
or
Sarah Bonnar:
(02) 6247 2013 (after hours)
Email: sarah @interact.net.au=
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:56:03 +0800
From: Pete Hollings <Pete_Hollings @CORRS.COM.AU>
Subject: Tango Workshop Brisbane - Australia
Dying to do a Tango workshop in Brisbane?
Well here's your chance to make a trip to Brisbane and spend the weeken=
d
learning the finer points of Argentine Tango!
Gaston Valdes and his team will be conducting a workshop in Brisbane on=
the
weekend 28/07/2000-30/07/2000
Venue:
Rio Rhythmics Dance Academy
126 Boundary Rd, West End=A0 Qld=A0 4101
Contact:
Tel: 07 3844 1824
email: dancing @riorhythmics.com.au
contact us at www.riorhythmics.com.au=
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:16:06 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Technique
Without trying to relate too closely to some of the
recent discussions on the L ... Well, before that:
tango enthusiasts DO engage in some REALLY strange
discussions, don t they (we knew that already)? But
aren t they getting stranger and stranger? Sometimes I
worry.
Anyway, that aside, I would like to say a few things
about the word technique . I cannot be sure that I am
not repeating someone who hath already spoken,
because, man, I get LOST! (I do not get lost easily, I
assure you.)
I think some of the dialogue would have simplified if
people were not influenced (perhaps on the whole
unconsciously) by connotations borrowed from other
contexts. When people think about technique for, say,
piano playing, or ice skating school figures, and the
like, that often conjures up images of dry, dreary
practice, like, Czerny, ouch! (Actually Czerny is not
all that dreary under the right circumstances, and the
idea that technique equals unfeeling repetitious
exercise is wrong also for either the piano or Olympic
ice skating, anyway).
Technique is a word that can often be interchanged
with others that do not normally evoke dryness or
dreariness at all: craft, art, ability, grace,
experience, ease. Is there technique in the cha do
(Japanese tea ceremony). There is, most definitely,
but the criterion for good technique is, I am told,
the ability to disguise all artiness, and come through
making perfectly graceful (but scripted) movements
with perfect (apparent or real?) ease and naturalness.
To give another example closer to tango (now you got
ME! talking strange), and marginally appropriate for
discussion in mixed company: when people say that
someone has a good kissing technique (I do not mean
social kissing porten~o style, please use your
imagination) they really mean something like s/he
kisses really well! , or s/he really knows how to
make it good!
I don t envision me or anyone else being praised for
one s kissing technique reacting with No way, I did
NOT spend hard endless hours every week for the last
20 years kissing one lovely woman after another,
straining to consider every detail of lip anatomy and
mucous membrane physiology learned in thick dreary
treatises in yet more hours of hard study in between
kissing sessions! Who could bear such a fate?
Technique in kissing and, for sane social dancers, in
tango, does not have much to do with anything very
technical , like IBM systems manuals, or equipment
with sharp edges, both of which, true, tend to be a
bit short in the feeling department.
For the hard core tango addict, feeling is a simple
thing indeed. It usually starts within the first 15
minutes of your tango life. You hear the music, you
find that primal (and at first somewhat primitive)
connection with your momentary sweet heart, the two of
you move to the music ... I mean the music moves you
two ... It happens mostly in your limbic, if not
reptilian brain. Just like crack: one time and you are
doomed.
Can something like this be taken away by (pleasurable)
efforts to make one s walk more beautiful, one s
posture more expressive, one s movements more fluid
and balanced? Or to learn more varied and perhaps
slightly more elaborate ways of expressing both the
music and the subtle and complex emotions unleashed by
the music, by the physical encounter (movement, touch,
and so on & on), perhaps by one s romantic fantasy, or
destiny? I should think not. (Boredom has a better
chance, though not much of one.)
On the other hand, someone who did not catch this kind
of illness, but rather an obsession with tango high
jinks, cannot be led astray by a feelings lesson (or
even a musicality class , though a really good one
may help the sound of hearing). These are people who
have discovered, not tango, but gimnotangopoedia,
which is like bad capoeira, performed with tango as
BACKGROUND muzak, and a partner playing a role not
unlike either catcher or tumbler in a flying trapeze
act --- or alternately the both of them.
Such people also have a lot of fun executing complex
movements without falling and without excessive
kicking-and-stomping of their partner. (It is always
better to kick neighboring ladies and stomp on them,
there is less emotional involvement that way).
These may also attend week-end warrior camps where
they are trained to talk more or less like this:
Who are you miserable beginner, with just one year
and a half of experience, if we can call your timid
prancing experience at all --- a neophyte nowhere near
mastering mere double back sacadas, let alone really
advanced moves like the one-way 12 turn continuous
giro combination --- who are you to have an opinion
about what cool dancers like me, whom everybody
admires, just look at me, should and should not do on
the dance floor, and how much of it we are allowed to
stake out for our own use? How dare you question our
right to execute the, er, figures we like and, unlike
you, took the trouble to learn, and to complete them
without finding plodders like you in the prescribed
path? See? I am looking at the studio mirror right
now, and don t I look great? Unfortunately my partner
is not really up to snuff, and seems not to be really
with me on this. Look, here it goes, another double
back sacada. It is already the fourth in this tango,
and it has been playing for nary a minute. I do it
between spin cycles, every time the music goes
boom-boom, like this.
It is not as if one type of dancer is being all
warmy-fuzzy feeling, and the other all
anaylitico-technical. On the contrary, people who are
driven by the music and the sensuality of the dance
are usually gluttons for technique, which is nothing
but the path to developing an ability to do things
well --- for instance, dance whatever one is capable
of dancing as much as possible with ease, elegance,
fluidity, musicality, and so on.
Also, a man who is so driven soon realizes that he
must understand the (or one, or several) tango
language/s if he is to compose well, that is, make an
expressive and powerful interpretation possible for
the couple. The good leaders I know are smooth,
musical, elegant, connected, etc ... and (secretly)
analytical.
In contrast, the gimnotangopoedist may very well be
content to dance all tangos essentially the same way,
repeating over and over fancy set floor exercise
routines for technical display, without any attempt at
a choreographic discourse. These are, more often than
not the naturals . This works OK in salsa and swing,
not very well in tango.
True, I am drawing caricatures, but I thing there is
truth in my caricatures. And some times one gets just
what one deserves.
I was going to tell the L about where I stand (am I
analytic? do I feel? do I think?) and about some crazy
things I do. But it is late, the posting is already
horrendously long, and I think I d better keep myself
out of this. I am going out dancing instead.
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 12 Jul 2000 to 13 Jul 2000 (#2000-191)
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