The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 7 Jul 2000
to 8 Jul 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 03:00:29 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 7 Jul 2000 to 8 Jul 2000 (#2000-186)
There are 7 messages totalling 371 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Social Dance Versus Posing (3)
2. tango hello, and then some
3. non-argentine tango (2)
4. THANKS TO RANDY & LYDIA
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Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:11:58 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Social Dance Versus Posing
Pete Hollings wrote:
> The question I wish to pose is.
>
> Do you think it is fair, for supposed experts, to dominate floorspace
> giving what amounts to demonstrations of complicated and intricate figures,
> in what is already quite a cramped venue. Whilst all others that have
> just gone along to enjoy a pleasant social dance, find themselves cornered
> or cramped while these people thrash their legs around???
>
I do not think it is. If they are truely experts, they should be able to
fit their figures in their own space and not do those which will
requires them to push out other people. Most of the time they are just
trying to imitate their masters-- and usually manage a bad imitation.
> What bothers me most about this sort of thing is, that the people doing
> this don't really seem to be enjoying themselves that much. They just
> seem to be going through a series of set figures with the same partners.
> There is no passion, there is no life, just legs....
>
Here is an interesting article on styles and what the adherents of those
styles do in a social dancing environment (although this is not what the
master may have told them to do):
http://www.cyber-tango.com/art/t_term1.html#long_def
(under "New(names for) styles of dance.")
rajan.
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:58:10 -0700
From: Judith Farkas <judith @PARACEL.COM>
Subject: Re: tango hello, and then some
Dear List,
Well,...Rico brings up a few interesting points. I do agree that many
women who are critical of leaders in fact, often need to acquire some basic
skills themselves before criticizing anyone. It is often these same women
who cannot complete a graceful molinete or a balanced ocho. It is however
not necessarily the case that we should all decide to take a given man and
do with him what we will. No matter that I would joyfully do so at the
drop of a hat in Tango circles and many other circles wherever
possible! ;-) That being said, if the man is open to that sort of
experience, then fine but I suspect that such an opportunity is rare. To
do as you suggest Rico, is difficult and a bit lacking in grace without the
willingness of the male. I am certain that you can imagine how difficult
it is to lead a woman if she prefers in actuality to not be lead by you or
anyone else. It would be an arduous task at best. Most of the males
with whom I dance do expect to lead. They do not expect to be
lead. There is within guidelines some latitude which encourages a
dialogue between the partners and that much I see as being the ultimate
objective. I have no desire to use the man as an unwilling pole for the
display of my skills. In truth, when I see women doing that type of solo
performance, I think it vain, self centered and embarrassing. It makes me
wonder what the point of the exercise is at all! Whatever the point is
for others, it is lost on me and is in addition not something to which I
aspire.
Rico did make some quite accurate observations though. It is grand to
follow an expert leader and experience that Tango high that we all know and
love. A great leader does not pull me off my axis and he allows me some
opportunity for self expression as well. The ideal is a dialogue between
two people, no? However, to expertly execute my steps, embellishments,
etc. and follow the inexpert leader to any degree while also attempting to
gain control over this person who is out of control, but expects to control
me, is off balance, and outweighs me from 30 - 100 pounds, that I think a
task too onerous to undertake. AGAIN, if a man is open to the dialogue,
then yes I can communicate with him to slow down a little, or speed up or
pause a moment while I make a small statement. What I am not inclined to
do is to wrestle for control on the dance floor. If a man is not open to
my in-put, then I may simply prefer not to dance with him. AND, that is
no crime. It is my prerogative. It is conversely the man's prerogative
to not dance with me as well for whatever reason. In many cases it is not
a statement about the skill level of my partner at all. Rather it may be
the case that there is not that connection that I seek in a dance
partner. AND, that is the opportunity that I was referring to above, that
rare moment when two people connect. It is just that...rare. The rarity
of that moment is not subject to blaming anyone.
What I believe to be at the heart of Rico's writing is that perhaps we,
women should be a bit more discreet and a bit less critical of
others. Fine, if you do not connect with so and so, but please refrain
from running the guy into the ground. Guide the gentleman if you can,
providing that he is open to your gentle guidance. IF you do not connect
with the gentleman, then simply do not dance with him, but do so
quietly. Suffering him does him an injustice. Ah, but here is the
caveat. It is also the case that we all need to graciously work with the
beginners and to make them feel comfortable and welcome. We were all
beginners once. Once again, there is a case for a balanced perspective.
Best Regards to All,
Judith
Judith Farkas
Senior Account Manager
Paracel
3833 North First Street
San Jose, CA 95134
510.583.6175 Phone
650.766.7328 Cell
judith @paracel.com
www.paracel.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:17:44 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: non-argentine tango
Thanks, Michael Knowles, for all the great info!
A friend of mine, Dr. Lucia Marino, formerly professor of Italian
Language & Literature (& now a real-time/telemetry software engineer!)
tells me that tango was a popular craze in the 1030's in Italy. So
there should be some CDs out there of music from there.
Harlequin has two CDs that I love, "Buenos Aires to Madrid" (HQ CD 88)
of Argentine tango bands in Spain 1927-41, and "Buenos Aires to
Berlin" (HQ CD 61) of bands in Germany 1927-39. A third (double) CD is
from Fremeaux & Associes S.A. called "Tango: le tango a paris 1907-1941."
Much of the works are scratchy but some have been re-mastered amazingly
well. Even some of the scratchy works are very beautiful.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:44:43 -0700
From: William Cheorvas <tangito @PACBELL.NET>
Subject: THANKS TO RANDY & LYDIA
I wish to commend Randy and Lydia for a job very well done regarding their
recent Tangofest in Miami.
Also, their recent posting "Remembering Independence Day" was of special
interest to me as not long ago I had the opportunity to see the original
Declaration of Independence at the National Archives in Washington -- and
also have some very enjoyable tango in Washington- very friendly people
there.
Again, many thanks to Randy and Lydia for a great tango event, and many
wishes for even greater success with their next Tangofest.
Bill
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:55:43 -0300
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= A. Contreras" <jcontrer @CMET.NET>
Subject: Re: Social Dance Versus Posing
Hi list!
I've seen this kind of people in many places and in many countries, and I=
agree :
they are imitating their masters, but in the wrong environment and in suc=
h a way
that it is a shame...
People who really know how to dance tango, know also where to do what ste=
ps or
figures, and how to share a limited resurce as it is the floor in a tango=
place.
If something like this happens in a milonga in Bs.As., be sure : all the =
real
tangueros will close the space to this specimen in such a way he will not=
be able
even to walk... he will be pushed out of the floor...
Best regards
Jos=E9 Antonio Contreras
Tango from Chile
Natarajan Balasundara wrote:
> Pete Hollings wrote:
>
> > The question I wish to pose is.
> >
> > Do you think it is fair, for supposed experts, to dominate floorspace
> > giving what amounts to demonstrations of complicated and intricate fi=
gures,
> > in what is already quite a cramped venue. Whilst all others that h=
ave
> > just gone along to enjoy a pleasant social dance, find themselves cor=
nered
> > or cramped while these people thrash their legs around???
> >
> I do not think it is. If they are truely experts, they should be able t=
o
> fit their figures in their own space and not do those which will
> requires them to push out other people. Most of the time they are just
> trying to imitate their masters-- and usually manage a bad imitation.
>
> > What bothers me most about this sort of thing is, that the people doi=
ng
> > this don't really seem to be enjoying themselves that much. They ju=
st
> > seem to be going through a series of set figures with the same partne=
rs.
> > There is no passion, there is no life, just legs....
> >
>
> Here is an interesting article on styles and what the adherents of thos=
e
> styles do in a social dancing environment (although this is not what th=
e
> master may have told them to do):
>
> http://www.cyber-tango.com/art/t_term1.html#long_def
>
> (under "New(names for) styles of dance.")
>
> rajan.
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:32:17 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: non-argentine tango
From Larry: "...tango was a popular craze in the 1030's in Italy...."
Wow! tango in the dark ages! Who knew? :)
Melinda
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:58:19 +0800
From: Juan Rando <juan @STARWON.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Social Dance Versus Posing
As a co-resident of Perth and Tango Dancer, as well as friend and peer of
many of these "supposed experts",
I read this recent posting with interest.
As Perth is small and thus the community, I was curious too read such
strong opinions from someone
I didn't even know by name. So I took it upon myself to find out a little
more of the history in all this.
Here is a classic case of a complete novice passing judgement on his peers
and his masters.
For what end I cannot be sure. Possibly, he truly believes what he has
said.
>The question I wish to pose is.
>
>Do you think it is fair, for supposed experts, to dominate floorspace
>giving what amounts to demonstrations of complicated and intricate figures,
>in what is already quite a cramped venue. Whilst all others that have
>just gone along to enjoy a pleasant social dance, find themselves cornered
>or cramped while these people thrash their legs around???
I'm not sure who you define as experts. Maybe you set your sights to
low. Many people at that venue are beginners, and are simply trying to
dance as best they can. They will try to imitate. That, by the way, is
more than %50 of the learning process. Sometimes it will be uncontrolled
or inappropriate. Unqualified public judgement on them will do nothing to
help things here, particularly as many do subscribe to this list.
Complicated and intricate figures? A double-sacada is about the most
complicated figure I've ever seen executed socially by any of my peers, as
we are all fanatical about encouraging a social style of dance. I think,
once again, what is complicated for some is routine for others.
>What bothers me most about this sort of thing is, that the people doing
>this don't really seem to be enjoying themselves that much. They just
>seem to be going through a series of set figures with the same partners.
>There is no passion, there is no life, just legs....
How dare anybody pass judgement on how another person "feels" whilst they
are dancing. It is this kind of presumption and unkindness that makes it
so hard to establish a friendly and functioning Tango community in Perth.
>It's not that I'm jealous of these people, frankly I have no doubt that I
>am just as (if not more) competent dancer, it's just that I and the
>majority of people go to enjoy ourselves and not show off.
Once again, "who are you?". You are certainly not as competant as any of
the "experts" that I know. In fact, I've seen you dance but once socially,
and you never leave the side of your partner to dance with others. You
have danced for only a year, with no previous dance experience. By the
standards of any significant Tango community, you would still be a beginner.
Learning to dance is like a martial art, it never ends, it's
disciplined. An aerial roundhouse kick may seem improbably to a white
belt, but is routine to a second dan. As is Tango.
As another line of discussion for this list, this whole matter has reminded
me of something that I have noticed since returning to Perth, and I'm sure
occurs in other communities. I've noticed this attitude both with Salsa
and Tango. Often I've seen students very quickly believing themselves to
be professionals, as they have little to judge themselves against. I my
self experienced this on two occasions with female students. When I
returned to Perth from the US in 1998, there was knowone to dance with at
my level, and I was frustrated. I taught one girl for 3 months, who then
presumed too quickly that she was ready to teach, simply because relatively
speaking there was nothing to compare herself against.
I must admit that I'm at fault partly in that situation, as I was simply
over enthusiastic in encouraging her dance, and thus probably overinflated
her ego somewhat.
>Does this sort of thing happen in other communities???
Yes, people like you do happen in other communities.
>regards
>
>Pete Hollings
Juan Rando
End of TANGO-L Digest - 7 Jul 2000 to 8 Jul 2000 (#2000-186)
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